Top 10 Ladies in Skating History?

christinaskater · Nov 28, 2009

1. Katarina Witt
2. Michelle Kwan
3. Carol Heiss
4. Peggy Flemming
5. Dorothy Hamil
6. Kristi Yamaguchi
7. Irina Slutskaya
8. Midori Ito
9. Yuka Sato/Chen Lu and Shizuka Arakawa in a virtual tie
10. Yu-na Kim and Mao Asada

janetfan · Nov 28, 2009

Blades of Passion said:
01. Michelle Kwan
02. Midori Ito
03. Sonja Henie
04. Janet Lynn
05. Herma Szabo
06. Chen Lu
07. Carol Heiss
08. Yu-Na Kim
09. Denise Beillmann
10. Dorothy Hamill

I don't know about Midori and the leg wrap. It is no more acceptable to me than an exaggerated mule kick.

Medals don't have to be the sole criteria for a list but Midori can't touch Irina when it comes to major medals. Midori had the big 3A and it helped her in competitions about as much as it helps Mao.

Irina introduced more than Midori imo with various 3x3 combinations and Irina typically landed them at a much, much higer rate than Midori ever landed her wrapped 3A.

Neither girl was my favorite artistically but I will give Irina credit for her Bielman done with both legs.

On top of that Irina had tougher competition for most of her career. Midori basically had Kristi and she did not get the better of Kristi.

But this stuff is subjective and most of us here can have a different list.

Carol Heiss won silver in Cortina and then never lost another event for the rest of her career. Carol was the first lady to land a 2A in competition and did it on Olympic ice.
She also made a movie with the stooges. How can anyone top that

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leCuRpv09D0

prettykeys · Nov 28, 2009

Blades of Passion said:
I'd also leave Kristi Yamaguchi off the list, in favor of Yu-Na Kim. No disrespect to Yamaguchi at all...but Yu-Na is basically Kristi Yamaguchi with more height and power.

I'm a little surprised you say this, because as much as I love YuNa, I would want to wait a little longer to see how she does at the Olympics. Titles don't matter that much to me, but they are part of the equation.

I can't think of any one thing that Kristi Yamaguchi was amazing or the best at, but she regularly did clean LP's with 6 or even 7 triples with the full set. That's pretty awesome!

Olympia · Nov 29, 2009

Also, if I recall correctly, Kristi had a triple-triple all the way back then. I think she managed one in the Olympics. That's more than can be said about any of the three medalists in 2006, though Shizuka certainly had a dependable one that she chose not to use.

Kristi has a few other factors that might put her on a Ten Best list above some of the other candidates. (Maybe this first point shows a North American bias in me; if so, I apologize to Europe.) She was the first non-European in sixteen years (since Hamill) to win the OGM. Also, until about 1990, when she devoted herself to singles, she was also a highly ranked pairs skater, with Rudy Galindo. That's an unusual versatility, especially these days. Furthermore, after her eligible years, she had a long and productive career as a pro skater during a time when pros did more than just glide around in sequins. She competed and won many pro medals and also was a stalwart in Stars on Ice, where a lot of innovative skating by top choreographers has been presented.

Blades of Passion · Nov 29, 2009

janetfan said:
Irina introduced more than Midori imo with various 3x3 combinations and Irina typically landed them at a much, much higer rate than Midori ever landed her wrapped 3A.

Okay this just isn't right.

Introduced more? Midori absolutely shattered the glass ceiling for technical content among ladies. She was the first woman to do 4 different Triples in a program...and the first woman to do 5 different Triples...and the first woman to do 6 different Triples. All throughout the 80's she kept raising the bar all by herself. She was also the first woman to do 7 triples in total in a program (which is still a standard every female skater yearns to achieve over 20 years later).

Midori was the first woman to do a Triple-Triple and her Triple Toe-Triple Toe combination is the best we've ever seen from a woman and she was FAR more consistent with it than Irina was with any of her 3-3's.

You are also incorrect about Irina being more consistent with her big combination (the 3Lutz-3Loop) than Midori was with her 3Axel. Irina landed 3Lutz-3Loop twice in her career and one of those times it was barely rotated. Midori landed the 3Axel at least a dozen times.

I'm really confused that you are actually demeaning the quality of Midori's 3Axel as well. It is THE best 3Axel we've ever seen from a woman. So what if the leg was wrapped a bit? It looked amazing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2H6PfFr59M

That 3Axel is better than most Men's 3Axels in fact. The height, distance, rotation, and flow-out are all exceptional.

Other than jumps, Midori could do very good spins.

Her ice coverage was better than we've ever seen from another woman in history.

She performed effortlessly and with JOY (with the correct music), in a manner we've never seen before or since her.

Her performance at the 1989 Worlds is a pivotal moment in skating history. It matches her astounding technical ability with a program that is lyrical, emotionally uplifting, and an immense pleasure to watch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKGasODrAcU

Midori changed the sport for women.

For example:

Olympia said:
Also, if I recall correctly, Kristi had a triple-triple all the way back then. I think she managed one in the Olympics.

Had Midori not existed, Kristi probably never would have even attempted the Triple-Triple in competition.

dorispulaski · Nov 29, 2009

I have a soft spot in my heart for the innovators in the sport.

So I would put Cecilia Colledge (GBR) on the list, probably near the top. She was the 1937 world champion & the 1936 Olympic silver medallist.

Cecilia invented the spiral, the layback spin, the catchfoot spin, and the camel spin. She also invented the one foot axel, called the Colledge. She was the first woman ever to do a double jump (the salchow).

Here's a youtube of Cecilia skating:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDLVM-Hjzwc

Here's a bio
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cecilia_Colledge

In the same way, Dick Button would be near the top of my list, not for his 2 Olympic golds, but for the way that he satisfied expectations that every year he would do somethig no one else had done before.

janetfan · Nov 29, 2009

Blades of Passion said:
Okay this just isn't right.

She performed effortlessly and with JOY (with the correct music), in a manner we've never seen before or since her.

Her performance at the 1989 Worlds is a pivotal moment in skating history. It matches her astounding technical ability with a program that is lyrical, emotionally uplifting, and an immense pleasure to watch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKGasODrAcU

Midori changed the sport for women.

.

Some good points about Midori and thanks for the clips.

My recollections of Midori are of a skater who did not always perform with joy or land her big jumps. The LP at 89 Worlds is amazing - but you make it sound like that was the norm for her when it was more like the exception.

Titles and major medals don't have to define a career and also don't necessarily show the impact a skater might have had on the sport.

Midori certainly raised the bar and changed the sport for women.

Janet Lynn did the same for women and the men too. I think her impact was much greater than Midori's and it is Janet's skating that women and men studied meticulously for years. I don't think Midori other than the jumps had much impact.

Tim Goebel has a very similar competitive record and medal collection as Midori and by your standards the Quad king should be considered too. But that would be silly.

Again, Midori with very good choreo was the exception and not the rule. Her lines and posture, her positions and extensions were not comparable to Kristi and either was her music interpretation.

As to Irina wasn't she the first to do several different 3x3 combos and not just the one you mentioned?

Lists are good sometimes to make us go back and consider things. This list does not claim to be about the skaters who had the most impact on skating. It feels more like a list about who were the greatest champions of their era.

Kristi was a great champion of her era and it is hard to claim that about Midori. She was more like Janet in that sense, a great skater but not the one able to win many major titles.

Peggy and Dorothy were wonderful free skaters and were also very good at school figures. Midori, like Janet was not good enough at figures.

Carol went undefeated for four years showing a consistency that Midori never came close to matching.

Going back and comparing eras can be difficult. Katarina is remembered today as the last woman to win back to back OGM's along with four WC's. You make it sound like she was lucky and not such a good skater. The truth is that Kat was a great competitor.

The single most underrated thing I find at skating boards is the lack of appreciation and understanding of competitive nerve. It is so difficult to win skating titles without it and Kat had it in spades. Sorry, but Midori maybe not nearly as much compared to Kat.

Midori is remembered unfortunately by some as the girl who failed on the biggest stage and she is not thought of as the great champion of her era.

Is it fair or does it show her true impact ? Whoever said sports are fair?

janetfan · Nov 29, 2009

Kunstrijdster said:
You said they should be. We can give her the due credit. Unless we make Golden skate posting a sport, than we can, of course, be unfair.

Come on now K, maybe I shouldn't post so early in the morning :yes::

Of course I would like judging to be more fair, I think we all do.:yes:
I was talking about legacies and not judging, OK?
And I expected a nicer reply after the way I just defended Kat! :yes:

BOP has an interesting list and I think Midori could easily belong on many lists of great skaters. Janet too!

But watching skating today how many Ladies are attempting the 3A ?

Not just sure if Midori's legacy is as great as BOP claimed but she was certainly ahead of her time.

Watching spiral sequences it is easy to see Michelle and Sasha's positions have changed the way Ladies do this element. Maybe I should say Nicole and Sasha are the one's being copied. That to me shows a legacy.

Watching every single skater attempting to interpret music and working so hard on an audience connection is Janet's legacy and it is true for the men as well as the Ladies. That to me is a lasting legacy.

I may be stubborn but I do listen. I would agree with BOP and put Midori on the list. But I would take off Dorothy and leave Peggy on. Carol Heiss for sure too.

Mathman · Nov 29, 2009

Kunstrijdster said:
Unless we make Golden skate posting a sport...

!!! I am going to petition the International Olympic Copmmittee right away.

..And R.D. undercuts Blades of Passion, while DorisPulaski goes for the kill. :rock:

Olympia · Nov 29, 2009

Doris, I had no idea Colledge invented that many moves. That definitely qualifies her for the list. I'll look at your links as soon as I get a chance. I just googled her and confirmed my recollection that she would doubtless have been an Olympic champion at least once and maybe twice, except that the War intervened, and so the Olympics were suspended in 1940 and 1944.

Janetfan, you make a great point about Sasha's influence on spirals. There are also some other flexibility moves that only she ever did before, and now every second skater is doing them. (The spin with the leg held straight up and close to the nose, for example.) Maybe it's just me, but I find them interesting when Sasha does them, and merely dutiful when someone else does them....

You bring up another excellent idea, which centers around Witt. In terms of raw talent or innovation, was she the best skater of her day? Possibly not. But she was the best competitor. And that is a trait that can trump all others in sports. In a way, she was the Chris Evert of skating. Evonne Goolagong was a far more fluid, dynamic player. But she blew it frequently during tournaments, while Chris was known for her cool demeanor. Back in figure skating, look at Viktoria Volchkova. She had beautiful, naturally high jumps, but she never won anything because....well, there was always a because, usually one that landed her on her backside on the ice.

So where are we going to fit all these important ladies on this here ten-best list? Well, I think the one thing that has to be bumped from the list is the word ten. Because there's no way all the greats will fit on it! Keep those names coming, folks!

janetfan · Nov 29, 2009

Olympia said:
Janetfan, you make a great point about Sasha's influence on spirals. There are also some other flexibility moves that only she ever did before, and now every second skater is doing them. (The spin with the leg held straight up and close to the nose, for example.) Maybe it's just me, but I find them interesting when Sasha does them, and merely dutiful when someone else does them....

You bring up another excellent idea, which centers around Witt. In terms of raw talent or innovation, was she the best skater of her day? Possibly not. But she was the best competitor. And that is a trait that can trump all others in sports. In a way, she was the Chris Evert of skating. Evonne Goolagong was a far more fluid, dynamic player. But she blew it frequently during tournaments, while Chris was known for her cool demeanor. Back in figure skating, look at Viktoria Volchkova. She had beautiful, naturally high jumps, but she never won anything because....well, there was always a because, usually one that landed her on her backside on the ice.

So where are we going to fit all these important ladies on this here ten-best list? Well, I think the one thing that has to be bumped from the list is the word ten. Because there's no way all the greats will fit on it! Keep those names coming, folks!

By all means 10 is not enough for many skating fans.

Speaking of fans - here is a clip I saw this morning for the first time.
The girl who first sparked interest in figure skating in Japan was not Midori, but Janet. There are several clips about the impact Janet's skating had on the Japanese people and this is an unusual and very personal tribute from a Japanese fan to Janet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viXr2yoKO24

As an American I can't imagine why the Japanese nation became so infatuated with Janet.............
But on second thought those of you who never saw her perform Live probably don't quite get how great she was either.

If this fan ever joins GS I will give my name to him....

Mathman · Nov 29, 2009

^ I would go with Barbara Ann Scott in the Wilma W. spot. She was the first lady to do a double Lutz (at age 13), and in 1947-48 held the Canadian championship, the North American championship, the European championship (!), the World championship and the Olympic championship.

janetfan · Nov 29, 2009

Kunstrijdster said:
We need either bigger lists or a different method.
What about the good old one skater-per-decade method?

00s: Madge Syers-Cave
20s: Herma Szabo
30s: Sonja Henie:
40s: Wilma Whatever
50s: Carol Heiss
60s: Peggy Flemming
70s: Janet Lynn
80s: Kati Witt
90s: Kristi/Michelle
2000s: Michelle/?

I like your idea K. If a decade has more than one great or influential skater then it is OK to list them.

But you still left Midori off?

My reason before to include Irina was not because I believed she was really an innovator but because of her many titles and major medals. Midori does not come close to matching Irina's medals and titles.

I wonder if Irina had won in '02 and '06 how we would look at her today?
She could have and probably should have won Gold at both of those Olympics but could not handle the pressure.

I think Kat could have been beaten in 84 and 88 but she was the one who handled the pressure. Ability to compete not only has to count - it should count very highly unless we are talking about exhibition skating.

Olympia · Nov 29, 2009

I remember reading how popular Janet became in Japan. I don't know how much of it was because the Sapporo Olympics, her '72 Olympics, were the first Winter Games held in Japan. Certainly the warmth of her personality--and that smile after she fell on the sit spin--had a large part to do with it. I think she's still beloved there. Didn't someone do a TV feature during the Nagano Olympics about how her name was still known? It's one of those lovely moments in sports history where an athlete breaks down the boundaries of national boosterism.

A few posts earlier we talked about the importance of the competitive spirit in making a champion. Another "x factor" that the greatest athletes have is personality. I think that's especially important to the outcome in a judged sport such as skating, because it helps the athlete convey the musical interpretation. It's what makes the difference between Gordeyeva/Grinkov (Gordeyeva and anyone! Gordeyeva and a hat rack, probably) and, say, Eltsova/Bushkov, who were also technically proficient but were completely businesslike in their approach. Exactly how a powerful personality (warm, serene, mysterious, bubbly, or whatever) kindles the other presentation skills such as musicality is a mystery to me--maybe it's a mystery to everyone. But whatever that "It" factor is, one of the best examples was and is Janet Lynn.

janetfan · Nov 29, 2009

Olympia said:
I remember reading how popular Janet became in Japan. I don't know how much of it was because the Sapporo Olympics, her '72 Olympics, were the first Winter Games held in Japan. Certainly the warmth of her personality--and that smile after she fell on the sit spin--had a large part to do with it. I think she's still beloved there. Didn't someone do a TV feature during the Nagano Olympics about how her name was still known? It's one of those lovely moments in sports history where an athlete breaks down the boundaries of national boosterism.

. But whatever that "It" factor is, one of the best examples was and is Janet Lynn.

Here is a fluff tribute ABC made about Janet and the Sapporo Olympics - and the impact Janet made on the Japanese people.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8ZNDfgBmQk

Olympia · Nov 29, 2009

That's the one I was remembering, Janetfan! Thanks so much. I started sniffling the minute the piece started playing.

Which brings me to another thought, and a question for all of you. Which skating personalities, including coaches, choreographers, and skaters, would you most want to meet? A time machine would be at your disposal if necessary.

Here's my starter list, to be added to at my discretion:
Michelle Kwan
Janet Lynn
Lori Nichol (principally so I can thank her for both her choreography and her music choices)
John Curry
Kurt Browning
Yagudin
Edit: And Asada! So I could tell her to stay strong, no matter what. (And give her music CD's....)

janetfan · Nov 29, 2009

Olympia said:
That's the one I was remembering, Janetfan! Thanks so much. I started sniffling the minute the piece started playing.

Which brings me to another thought, and a question for all of you. Which skating personalities, including coaches, choreographers, and skaters, would you most want to meet? A time machine would be at your disposal if necessary.

Here's my starter list, to be added to at my discretion:
Michelle Kwan
Janet Lynn
Lori Nichol (principally so I can thank her for both her choreography and her music choices)
John Curry
Kurt Browning
Yagudin

Why not consider Dick Button or Peggy Fleming?
I would choose either one of them because they have seen all of the great skaters and met many of them. What a discussion I could have with either - but I would choose Peggy as long as she brought a bottle or two of wine from her vineyard.

Her best is called "Choreography" a red Bordeaux blend.
http://www.smarter.com/other-wine/fleming-jenkins-choreography-2004-750ml/pd--ch-34--pi-1293698.html

Here is a customer review of Fleming-Jenkins Vineyard and Winery:

"First off, Peggy Fleming and her husband Greg Jenkins are the cutest couple! What a dynamic duo, and so down-to-earth! It was so nice to be able to chat it up, take photos and get a few bottles signed by them yesterday afternoon. I love that they are so passionate about their wines and spend quality time with patrons talking about what they love doing.

The cute little tasting room is located across the street from one of my favorite bakeries in downtown Los Gatos, Icing on the Cake. I'd never noticed the tasting room until yesterday, and was so glad to stop in with both Peggy and Greg present. There were lots of Peggy's Olympics paraphernalia adorning the room, which made it like a mini museum.

For $5, we tasted 4 lovely wines, poured by the manager Gregg, who was extremely friendly and informative. My favorite was the 2005 Napa Valley "Choreography" Cab. I ended up purchasing two of those and a bottle of the 2006 Chardonnay which is from the Jenkins acre vineyard in Los Gatos.

I also joined their wine club, which has great benefits. I was able to get the wines at 20% off, and the ones I will be receiving 4-6 times a year will be shipped to my house. I also get to enjoy complimentary tasting with 3 guests and invitations to special members-only events hosted by Greg and Peggy. I'm really looking forward to hanging out with them again!"

ETA: This sounds like a good meeting place for GS posters who also enjoy wine. I am sure we could tell Peggy what was wrong with her skating as well as advising her on producing a better bottle of wine

Mathman · Nov 29, 2009

Olympia said:
Lori Nichol (principally so I can thank her for both her choreography and her music choices)

Lori Nichol would be my first choice, too. She was actually a pretty good skater herself, and skated with John Curry's company as a pro.

As for Michelle Kwan, I would be afraid to meet her in real life. What good would me disolving into a puddle of mush do?

Trivia question: Who was Lori Nichol's coach and choreographer? (Hint: He also coached famous coach Richard Callaghan.)

janetfan · Nov 29, 2009

Kunstrijdster said:
Well, that's the drawback of the method. Even if there are several deserving skaters in a decade we have to settle for only one. So Midori loses the 80s to Kat and the 90s to Kristi/Michelle and so on...

:

But you have Kristi/Michelle for the 90's.
That is two.........:scratch:

MKFSfan · Nov 29, 2009

janetfan said:
Not just sure if Midori's legacy is as great as BOP claimed but she was certainly ahead of her time.

You may have changed my way of thinking. My initial reaction was,"Lu Chen but not Midori???" Midori WAS way ahead of her time technically. But I guess Lu Chen combining artistry and 7 triple programs paved the way more so than Midori's influences.

Watching spiral sequences it is easy to see Michelle and Sasha's positions have changed the way Ladies do this element. Maybe I should say Nicole and Sasha are the one's being copied. That to me shows a legacy.

I do think in US skating, Nicole did jumpstart the hyper-flexy spiral positions. Michelle brought forth the COE spiral that is so common today (even though very few match the steadiness and secure edges of Michelle) and repopularized the Charlotte (although Sasha has tried to claim that move herself). Sasha's influence is in the sequence itself, IMO, not just flexy-positions. I know spiral sequences were a requirement in the SP even before Sasha, but we saw the sequence being more about connecting MITF, deep edges, ice coverage and speed. Now it seems to be more about hyperflexibility and holding out moves. Irina brought back/popularized the beillmann spin/spiral and Sasha the fan spiral/skid move and I-spin. But none of them "invented" a move, just made it into a highlight of every single program, or popularized it, so that we identify certain moves with certain skaters. ((Caroline invented the pearl-spin and now many are including that in their spins, but not so sure Caroline will go down as one of the greatest...))

Seems like more emphasis is being placed on spirals and spins these days than it used to be, but you can go back and look at various skaters who had that in spades, yet didn't have the jumps (Nathalie Kreig, Lucinda Ruh, Katherine Healy, even Fluer Maxwell). Sasha is mentioned the most because she did have the jumps and she is more recently a top elite skater. But they all were capable of the same spins/spirals Sasha did.

So, while I believe Midori and Sasha have left their mark on the sport, I wouldn't consider them missing from the list.

Top 10 Ladies in Skating History?

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