Grand Prix Final: Ladies SP | Page 12 | Golden Skate

Grand Prix Final: Ladies SP

evangeline

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Could you explain? I'm not sure if I understand the difference between degree of rotation and number of rotations.

When a figure skater jumps, he/she rarely (if ever) gets the whole 360-degree rotation on the last rotation. According to the ISU, the skater must not be fewer than 90-degrees (a quarter-turn) short on the last rotation for the jump to not be downgraded.

What is so debateable about UR calls is that it is very difficult to objectively determine with the naked eye (and even with slow-mo) if a jump is, say, 88-degrees short of rotation as opposed to 92-degrees short. Plus, when we have to make judgment calls on such minute details, factors such as the different camera angles (or wonky landings, etc) can also make a big difference in how one perceives the degree of rotation.
 
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Marrymeyunakim

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 4, 2009
There is two other people on the tech panel. This isn't the only time that Yuna has received edge calls or downgrades...



Yes, but that's sports. It sounds to me that Yuna needs to get a tougher mental game. In Paris the ice through her off, in Skate America it was her skates, and here, as another poster said, she said a fall in the warm up was hard to shake. IMO, she needs to accept that things don't always go perfectly and in sports you need to work through adversity.

Sorry, but I didn't write the things that you quoted.
 

hikki

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 18, 2007
Country
Japan
Puhleease. Sorry my wording was wrong. I'm also an American national, but ethnicity-wise I'm Scottish, Korean and Japanese. There are so many hostile and stupid Japanese-Americans/Korean-Americans that spew out silly garb. I just hate the fact that you have to bring up a Japanese lady must be behind some kind of reason that Yuna got DG. I don't like the call either. And I'm not talking how people get GOEs or not. I'm saying you're ridiculous in insinuating that a call that you don't agree on has to have some kind of ethnically-driven motive. Yuna clearly didn't deserve a +1 GOE for her 1st combo at SA in LP '09, but just because one judge had strange marks I didn't assume, oh the person must be Korean. I'm making an analogy here, but that's what you essentially did. I've gone through this Korean vs Japanese my whole life & I'm frankly so sick of it.

Thank you. figurejennah, you're getting really repetitive and the more you speak about some competition from a couple of seasons ago the more irrelevant you become. And the person you're referring to wasn't even involved tonight.

Btw Miki is quoted saying how she thought her marks were too high. I personally thought she skated really well tonight (3/3 would've been awesome) but it appears that's how she feels.

I do think the UR calls for jumps that aren't obviously underrotated suck. Like Rachael's /3toe at last season's WTT and Fumie's 3flip at Skate America SP this season.
 

rossdale

Match Penalty
Joined
Dec 4, 2009
I feel bad for Akiko.

She has a good Lutz and absolutely did not deserve to get "e" calls at Skate Canada.

As a result, she took the Lutz out of her SP. I don't like this change.

It was a very good performance, though!


She did a great performance. I dont think that her score today is fair. She could have gotten better score.
 

Marrymeyunakim

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 4, 2009
When a figure skater jumps, he/she rarely (if ever) gets the whole 360-degree rotation on the last rotation. According to the ISU, the skater must not be fewer than 90-degrees (a quarter-turn) short on the last rotation for the jump to not be downgraded.

What is so debateable about UR calls is that it is very difficult to objectively determine with the naked eye (and even with slow-mo) if a jump is, say, 78-degrees short of rotation as opposed to 92-degrees short. Plus, when we have to make judgment calls on such minute details, factors such as the different camera angles (or wonky landings, etc) can also make a big difference in how one perceives the degree of rotation.

Thank you for that clarification.

Isn't it, however, possible for us to be able to improve (not necessarily perfect) the quality of judging by giving the tech panel the technological means of assessing UR's?
 

evangeline

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Agree with Marrymeyunakim. The difference in take off and landing degree of rotation should be easiliy converted to the # of rotations. It can be counted with 1-2 decimal points.

But can it easily be converted to 1-2 decimal points?

It's not like the ISU is counting the degree of rotations with lasers or other extremely exacting tracking technology. The ISU is using humans to determine the degree of rotation with their eyes in a limited amount of time. Maybe you have the benefit of the time to watch Yu-Na's 3-3 closeup in super-high HD on a huge screen 50 times before you make your 1-2 decimal point calculations.

The tech callers don't.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
She did a great performance. I dont think that her score today is fair. She could have gotten better score.

When a skater misses a major element (3F) in the SP their scores will go down. Yuna, considering she had a major technical error today scored very well. Most other ladies with the same mistake would have a score in the low or middle 50's.
 

figurejennah

On the Ice
Joined
Jun 27, 2009
Thank you. figurejennah, you're getting really repetitive and the more you speak about some competition from a couple of seasons ago the more irrelevant you become. And the person you're referring to wasn't even involved tonight. .


I am sorry for posting a lot and being "repetitive," but if you hate reading what I wrote, why don't you just skip it? Also, I am not just babbling to myself, I am replying to other posters. Moreover, I wasn't talking about something that occurred "Seasons ago." Yuna received her first "e" only last season.

I can see how polite you are. :)
 
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Nadia01

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 10, 2009
When a skater misses a major element (3F) in the SP their scores will go down. Yuna, considering she had a major technical error today scored very well. Most other ladies with the same mistake would have a score in the low or middle 50's.

I think s/he was talking about Akiko's performance, not Yuna.
 

rossdale

Match Penalty
Joined
Dec 4, 2009
Do you think it is possible that someday somebody invents some small device that skaters attach on their blade and it goes on when they leave the ice and goes off when they impact the ice and tells how many degrees were rotated? :biggrin: Then maybe all this controversy will be able to rest in peace.

May be I should try. It should be damn easy to detect the take off and landing angles using laser technology and touch sensor
 

skyscraper88

Spectator
Joined
Dec 4, 2009
IMO this grandprix final is a farce!!!

I was shocked by the overscores in the men's short program.
Lysacek getting 89.....it's a total joke.
He's a good skater but definitely NOT good enough to be considered as one of the gold medal favorites.
Takahashi deserved to get a high score but NOT as high as 89.
Oda...I've never considered him as an artistic or expressive skater. He's just a jumping machine(although I admit his jumping is excellent)

I wonder why every skater considered as a medal favorite gets high scores even if they mess up their performances whereas Yuna is ALWAYS underscored after a subpar performance.
Yuna's 3T getting downgraded...when the person commentating during the broadcast said that I couldn't believe what I was hearing....it was a fully rotated
3-3 combination!!!!!Even Shizuka Arakawa, ladies olympic champion in the last olympics said that it was flawless....the shocking thing is that her GOE for the combination was 1.6 even though her 3T at the end was downgraded!
This shows that most of the judges(maybe all of them)marked it as a 3-3 and gave her high GOEs as usual but the technical controler ignored the GOEs and downgraded her triple. Something is quite fishy here....

I'm glad that Miki skated well today because she hasn't been skating as well as she can before this competition. She deserved to get a season's best for her performance today. Good luck to her in the free skate.
I feel sorry for Joannie...she has solid jumps(if she's on)and nice chreography and I really like her programs for this season. Hope she makes it to the podium with a solid free skate.

One thing's for sure: dubious judging is killing figure skating. I truly hope things will be different in Vancouver....
 
S

sweethinker

Guest
In my opinion, the matters are quite clear. The judges gave Kim +1.6 GOE on her 3Lz-3t. Meanwhile, the tech specialist downgraded the same jump. Is it normal for the judges to give that kind of GOE for an underrotated jump? I don't think so. The tech specialist was clearly WRONG, or the nine judges were. Nine against one. Simple mathematics.
 

camion

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 30, 2005
Ugh, I understand how you feel if you were Scottish, Korean and Japanese! (My Korean and Japanese friends, they hang out well but whenever history comes up, they are like cats and dogs... lol -- which I perfectly understand why.)


I hate to bring Korea/Japan thing in here, but no one can deny the fact that nationality does play some tricks in figure skating. That's why we have a new system, and we continue to question if it is working.

I couldn't resist but to point out that the tech who gave her downgrade was the same one who gave Yuna "e." If no one sees it but that one person says OMG Yuna sucks! let's give her all these downgrades and edge calls! (and yes also that another tech referee being there)........ it's just fishy. sigh. (I will go with the majority here and if 10 say Yuna's jumps are perfect vs 1 who says she's wrong, then I will say that 1 person is wrong.)

I saw the youtube clip, and saw it many times, and still with my head, I can't accept that downgrade. We all know what happens after that one small incident. Before Yuna received "e," her 3flip success rate was almost 100%. Now, everyone says she has some mental issues. I just HATE seeing this.

I agree that ethnicity/race plays in to many things, but I just really hated the fact that you jokingly referred to a Japanese lady. I see your argument in the level 1s & all, but still it sounded really racist to me & that's one thing my dad taught me from his experience growing up in Korea as a mixed child. Don't ever assume or snub someone based on race/ethnicity or looks. And I definitely understand how Koreans & Japanese always have an underlying tension with the historical past & current ones like Dokdo, but still both are part of my heritage & I hate it when there is so much hatred going on. And, I mentioned Yuna recieving a +1 GOE at SA for the LP because I saw a shameful comment saying that judge MUST be Korean because all the other judges gave her minus GOEs. I'm not saying whether a GOE is deserved or undeserved, but people make so much assumptions out of biases.
 

dlgpffps

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 14, 2009
On a lighter note, I really enjoyed Suzuki's performance today. I'm hoping she will get a ticket to the Olympic Games. Mao and Miki are already in (just look at the Japanese Fed's criteria. There's no way the Fed will leave Mao in Japan), so it comes down to the third lady. I know that Yukari and Fumie are excellent as well, but Suzuki has won my heart. I'd love to see her skate in Vancouver.
 

hikki

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 18, 2007
Country
Japan
May be I should try. It should be damn easy to detect the take off and landing angles using laser technology and touch sensor

Yeah, like they do in tennis. That'd save us from lots of dramas. But then again, some drama is still good :biggrin:
 

mishieru07

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 23, 2009
Yu Na not in first? Joannie in 4th? :eek: So much for Ladies being predictable.

Eh that 3-3 looks fine to me. Weird downgrade (maybe there's a very strict tech controller).

I can't tell edge calls, URs and levels very well either, unless it's an outright mistake. I will honestly tell you I still don't know what makes a Lvl 4 Step Sequence and what doesn't. And of course, there are our favourite DGs, ! and e.

Couple days ago, I was arguing on FSU that FS is highly prone to subjectivity because of PCS.

Well, now I'll take my words back and say even TES is subjective too.

Hasn't the ISU learnt from the recent WC qualifying match between France and Ireland, with Henry's controversial handball? With all the technology at their disposal, you'd thought Speedy and co would use it (do they? don't really know). Hmph.

OTOH, this makes for an exciting LP! I hope everyone skates better tomorrow (don't beat yourself up Yu Na, you're a GREAT skater and you CAN land that damn 3 Flip. Believe Yu Na and go kill the LP!)
 

camion

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 30, 2005
Yeah, even though Akiko didn't have her best skate. I'm definitely rooting for her to nab that Olympic spot, along with Mao & Miki.
 

evangeline

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
In my opinion, the matters are quite clear. The judges gave Kim +1.6 GOE on her 3Lz-3t. Meanwhile, the tech specialist downgraded the same jump. Is it normal for the judges to give that kind of GOE for an underrotated jump? I don't think so. The tech specialist was clearly WRONG, or the nine judges were. Nine against one. Simple mathematics.


:disapp:

Where should I start? Should I even bother?


On a lighter note, I was wrong about the wank being all over the dance results. Oops. Sorry V/M fans here on GS! :eek:
 

rossdale

Match Penalty
Joined
Dec 4, 2009
I thought the to tech controller who gave Yuna level 1 was Junko.... something? Or am I getting this completely wrong? lol



I think this is the lady was the one I was talking about...? lol


Junko is a terrible judge. I do not find any consistency in her judging calls. Also she is severely biased for Japanese and non-Japanese skaters.
It is not professional at all. I would turn off TV if she become a technical judge in Olympic games. You know what? Japanese skater swill take over the podium no matter what they do in the performance.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
I think s/he was talking about Akiko's performance, not Yuna.

Thanks, that's the problem with jumping around from board to board :eek:

I missed Akiko today - but am not surprised in the least if she was under marked.

Reputation is everything in CoP and as much as I enjoy Akiko's skating her rep is not as big as some of the other girls.

I hope she skates well tomorrow.
 
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