Ideal jump layout for Mao?

mylastduchess · Dec 7, 2009

Under Tarasova Mao jumping seem to have taken a step back she used to do 2 kinds of 3/3. Okay I know the her 3f/3l has been downgraded but why not a 3f/3t? Its obvious I think that against Yu-na she needs a 3/3 both in her short and long. a 3A/2T is way too risky and still doesn't match Yu-na's marks if she lands her 3/3. I would rather see her do a 3F/3T in the short, and steps into a 3A if she insists on doing that jump. Since if she is succesful in the 3/3 her marks wouldn't take such a big hit even if she messes up on her Axel.

Bennett · Dec 7, 2009

That sounds nice, but i do not see mao changing her mind....

silverlake22 · Dec 7, 2009

mylastduchess said:
Under Tarasova Mao jumping seem to have taken a step back she used to do 2 kinds of 3/3. Okay I know the her 3f/3l has been downgraded but why not a 3f/3t? Its obvious I think that against Yu-na she needs a 3/3 both in her short and long. a 3A/2T is way too risky and still doesn't match Yu-na's marks if she lands her 3/3. I would rather see her do a 3F/3T in the short, and steps into a 3A if she insists on doing that jump. Since if she is succesful in the 3/3 her marks wouldn't take such a big hit even if she messes up on her Axel.

Mao does not do a lot of toe jumps I noticed. If she went for a 3-3 it would be with a 3loop on the back end of it and that's so easy to get downgraded on. Plus she does not do any lutzes in her program. Her 3f-2lo-2lo gets both loops DG in competition a lot, if only should could turn it into 3f-2t-2lo she might have a better shot. I think the reason Mao does so many 3a attempts is that she needs those points to points to be an OM contender, because she has no lutz, no 3-3, and a 3-2-2 that isn't very strong.

Skaters like Yuna, Miki, and Rachael have learned how to get the most points without being super risky like Mao. Rachael has a 3f-3t, and a 3lz-2t and 3f-2t-2lo planned late in the program which earn her a lot of points. Yuna's 3lz-3t (10 points) is worth more than Mao's 3a-2t (9.5 points) and she is much more likely to land it. Yuna also has a 2a-2t-2lo, and a 2a-3t late in the program. Miki has a 3lz-2lo/3lz-3lo, and a 3lz-2lo-2lo late in the program which she usually does not get DG on. Miki and Rachael attempt two 3lutz and two 3flip in their programs and Yuna has two 3lutz, one 3flip, a 3-3, and a 2a-3t. Joannie also knows how to rack up the points because she has a 3lz-2t (even that combination is not worth much less than a 3a) and a 3lz-2t-2lo.

So basically, there are other ways to earn lots of points without planning 3 super risky triple axels in your program. The others have figured this out, but Mao either has yet to or doesn't have much else to rely on

Layfan · Dec 7, 2009

silverlake22 said:
Mao does not do a lot of toe jumps I noticed. If she went for a 3-3 it would be with a 3loop on the back end of it and that's so easy to get downgraded on. Plus she does not do any lutzes in her program. Her 3f-2lo-2lo gets both loops DG in competition a lot, if only should could turn it into 3f-2t-2lo she might have a better shot. I think the reason Mao does so many 3a attempts is that she needs those points to points to be an OM contender, because she has no lutz, no 3-3, and a 3-2-2 that isn't very strong.

Skaters like Yuna, Miki, and Rachael have learned how to get the most points without being super risky like Mao. Rachael has a 3f-3t, and a 3lz-2t and 3f-2t-2lo planned late in the program which earn her a lot of points. Yuna's 3lz-3t (10 points) is worth more than Mao's 3a-2t (9.5 points) and she is much more likely to land it. Yuna also has a 2a-2t-2lo, and a 2a-3t late in the program. Miki has a 3lz-2lo/3lz-3lo, and a 3lz-2lo-2lo late in the program which she usually does not get DG on. Miki and Rachael attempt two 3lutz and two 3flip in their programs and Yuna has two 3lutz, one 3flip, a 3-3, and a 2a-3t. Joannie also knows how to rack up the points because she has a 3lz-2t (even that combination is not worth much less than a 3a) and a 3lz-2t-2lo.

So basically, there are other ways to earn lots of points without planning 3 super risky triple axels in your program. The others have figured this out, but Mao either has yet to or doesn't have much else to rely on

Wow, great analysis!:agree:

If I can ask a basic question, why it is that a skater who has enough athletic ability to do a triple axel can't do any kind of 3-3? Is it just a matter of how your body is? Or is it because a skater like Mao concentrates to much on a triple axel and not enough on a achieving a consistent 3-3 or 3 lutz?

prettykeys · Dec 7, 2009

Layfan said:
Wow, great analysis!:agree:

If I can ask a basic question, why it is that a skater who has enough athletic ability to do a triple axel can't do any kind of 3-3?

She can do 3-3's, or at least she used to. She was doing 3F-3T as recently as last year. She may not have been practicing them lately, however. I think she's just been focusing on that 3Axel instead. :frown2:

Anyway, here is my jump layout for Mao, that if she hits, is sure to get her big points!

3A-3A
3F-2Lo-2Lo
3Lo
3F-2Lo
3T-2A
2A

Unstoppable!!!

silverlake22 · Dec 7, 2009

Layfan said:
Wow, great analysis!:agree:

If I can ask a basic question, why it is that a skater who has enough athletic ability to do a triple axel can't do any kind of 3-3? Is it just a matter of how your body is? Or is it because a skater like Mao concentrates to much on a triple axel and not enough on a achieving a consistent 3-3 or 3 lutz?

I don't know, but I would guess Mao is just focusing too much on the axel. Also, the other jumps focus more on edges, whereas the axel you throw your body into. In 2008 when Kimmie was having an awful season, though she didn't do it in competition, she still practiced and landed many triple axels. Her other jumps had abandoned her, but the 3axel had not.

Mao has a bad flutz so I think the fear is that if she tried a lutz, she'd get edge calls and it would make her lose points. Also, for some reason she likes the loop better than the toe, and tacking a 3 loop on the end of the combination is harder to do and harder to get ratified than adding a 3 toe on the end of a combination. Mao also has pretty broad shoulders for a person her size so she can probably get the height needed for a 3axel b/c her center of gravity is higher than most girls. She can't rotate as fast as she could when she was 15 though because she is a few inches taller which slows down her rotation. So even though she gets great height, if she can't rotate enough it doesn't matter

BlackAxel · Dec 7, 2009

prettykeys said:
She can do 3-3's, or at least she used to. She was doing 3F-3T as recently as last year. She may not have been practicing them lately, however. I think she's just been focusing on that 3Axel instead. :frown2:

Anyway, here is my jump layout for Mao, that if she hits, is sure to get her big points!

3A-3A
3F-2Lo-2Lo
3Lo
3F-2Lo
3T-2A
2A

Unstoppable!!!

Ok the 3A-3A is like unimaginable, lol. But seriously a dream jump layout that I would Mao to have in the sp is a 3-3, 3A, and a 2A. with that kind of a jump layout, I seriously think she can top Yu-Na in the short......And YES its DOABLE but with the way that Mao has been jumping lately the chances are slim that she will land all those jumps :no:

Blades of Passion · Dec 7, 2009

I think prettykeys meant a 3A-2T combination and then a solo 3A...only 6 jumping passes were listed.

silverlake22 · Dec 7, 2009

theresa said:
Ok the 3A-3A is like unimaginable, lol. But seriously a dream jump layout that I would Mao to have in the sp is a 3-3, 3A, and a 2A. with that kind of a jump layout, I seriously think she can top Yu-Na in the short......And YES its DOABLE but with the way that Mao has been jumping lately the chances are slim that she will land all those jumps :no:

Mao really needs to fix her jump layout in the short because remember what happened at COR? She popped her first 3a into a 2a and then her second 2a didn't count and she ended up in 6th place. She should replace a 3-3 or even a 3-2 with the 3a because if that happens again at the Olympics, she won't medal

wonderlen3000 · Dec 7, 2009

Seeing how Suzuki rack up the TES without any 3+3, Mao can do:
3A
3F+2T+2Lo
3Lo
x 3F+2Lo
x 3Lo - 2A
x 3Lz
x 3S or (2A - 2A)

Mao has higher level of spins and spirals so she can also milk out the points in there, and if she landed all clean the total TES can be (62 - 66). I don't see anyone will score over 70+ in TES given all the tough downgrade and edge call these day.

wonderlen3000 · Dec 7, 2009

theresa said:
Ok the 3A-3A is like unimaginable, lol. But seriously a dream jump layout that I would Mao to have in the sp is a 3-3, 3A, and a 2A. with that kind of a jump layout, I seriously think she can top Yu-Na in the short......And YES its DOABLE but with the way that Mao has been jumping lately the chances are slim that she will land all those jumps :no:

Mao is more likely to land 3A+3T than landing the 3A-3A sequence. I don't think even men can land this combo.

Oscilla · Dec 7, 2009

Mao doesn't have a "bad flutz". She does have an inconsistent Lutz. Last season she landed clean Lutzes in 3 competitions before she started messing them up. Kind of like it happens to YuNa with her flip.

As for the combos ending with 3T I don't think Mao will go for 3F-3T. She's been fixing her hammer toe take-off to improve her 3-3s (hammer toe makes the jump easier to rotate but sacrifices speed and some control, and you need those to land 3-3s). However actually changing the take-off rendered Mao's 3Fs weaker - she lands it but it has even less speed on the landing. She might get over that by Nationals/Olympics, but there might be not enough time to make 3-3s out of 3F consistent again in time.

However, I think Mao is capable of doing 2A-3T. Shanetta Folle said that if Mao wanted to give up on doing two 3As in the LP, they might replace one 3A with 2A-3T.

My ideal layout for Mao would be:

SP:

3L3L - in the practice clips this summer that was one 3-3 that looked fully rotated and landed with the most speed and power.
3F
2A

Base value: 19.00

LP:

3A - I think she could manage landing one 3A cleanly. Last season it was usually her 2nd 3A that got downgraded.
2A-3T - as I said above
3S - she was landing it in run-throughs pretty recently, and doing so in the first half should be easier than in the 2nd
3L-2L-2L
3F-2L
3F
3L

Base value: 48.25

Tinymavy15 · Dec 7, 2009

Oscilla said:
Mao doesn't have a "bad flutz". She does have an inconsistent Lutz.

My ideal layout for Mao would be:

SP:

3L3L - in the practice clips this summer that was one 3-3 that looked fully rotated and landed with the most speed and power.
3F
2A

Base value: 19.00

LP:

3A - I think she could manage landing one 3A cleanly. Last season it was usually her 2nd 3A that got downgraded.
2A-3T - as I said above
3S - she was landing it in run-throughs pretty recently, and doing so in the first half should be easier than in the 2nd
3L-2L-2L
3F-2L
3F
3L

Base value: 48.25

Love it.

prettykeys · Dec 7, 2009

Blades of Passion said:
I think prettykeys meant a 3A-2T combination and then a solo 3A...only 6 jumping passes were listed.

theresa said:
Ok the 3A-3A is like unimaginable, lol.

Haha, actually I meant a 3A-3A as a joke, but my jokes are always so fail. :eek:

It was a poke at the excessive preoccupation with the 3A.

wonderlen3000 said:
Seeing how Suzuki rack up the TES without any 3+3, Mao can do:
3A
3F+2T+2Lo
3Lo
x 3F+2Lo
x 3Lo - 2A
x 3Lz
x 3S or (2A - 2A)

Mao has higher level of spins and spirals so she can also milk out the points in there, and if she landed all clean the total TES can be (62 - 66). I don't see anyone will score over 70+ in TES given all the tough downgrade and edge call these day.

This sounds very reasonable.

I wouldn't mind something like (one 3A, one 3-3):

3A
3F-3T
3Lo
3F-2Lo-2Lo
2A-3T
3Lo
2A

silverlake22 · Dec 7, 2009

prettykeys said:
Haha, actually I meant a 3A-3A as a joke, but my jokes are always so fail. It was a poke at the excessive preoccupation with the 3A.

This sounds very reasonable.

I wouldn't mind something like (one 3A, one 3-3):

3A
3F-3T
3Lo
3F-2Lo-2Lo
2A-3T
3Lo
2A

For some reason Mao does not like 3T though. Her jumps on the end of combinations are always loops, which are very easy to UR. While the above layout would be ideal, i don't see it happening any time soon. Plus Mao said she wasn't going to change anything not too long ago

prettykeys · Dec 7, 2009

silverlake22 said:
For some reason Mao does not like 3T though. Her jumps on the end of combinations are always loops, which are very easy to UR. While the above layout would be ideal, i don't see it happening any time soon. Plus Mao said she wasn't going to change anything not too long ago

I know....it's an old topic but worth revisiting since the Japan Nationals is coming up soon.

I just remember that Mao did the 3F-3T last year, when she became World Champ. It was clean. She also did a solo 3T this year at the WC (I remember b/c she doesn't like the 3Lz or 3S as much but the flip and toeloop she seems to be OK with.) I don't remember her underrotating her loops. She could definitely do 3F-3Lo instead.

Ugh, I just realized I doubled too many 3-jumps. Need to cut out a 3T.

3A
3F-3Lo
3T
3F
2A-2Lo-2Lo
3Lo
2A

janetfan · Dec 7, 2009

silverlake22 said:
Plus Mao said she wasn't going to change anything not too long ago

I hope Mao will atleast consider changing her dress.

Oscilla · Dec 7, 2009

prettykeys said:
3A
3F-3T
3Lo
3F-2Lo-2Lo
2A-3T
3Lo
2A

It's impossible to repeat 3 types of triples (3F,3L and 3T in this case), you can repeat only 2 types because of the Zayak rule. Plus, if you repeat a triple, it must be in a combo or sequence.

On a more practical note, I don't think it would be wise to put 2A-3T in the 2nd half. Mao hasn't been doing this combo recently, so it's definitely better to do it on fresh legs in the 1st half. In the second half I would put only those triples that Mao is comfortable with - 3L and 3F in the case when 2A-3T is executed in the 1st half.

For some reason Mao does not like 3T though. Her jumps on the end of combinations are always loops

Not quite true - she has landed 2A-3T and many 3F-3Ts in competition before. She hasn't done any recently because of the hammer toe that got more prominent as she grew, and because of the fact that 3F-3T only makes sense if it enables you to do an additional triple in the program. Because Mao took out her 3Lz out of the program doing a 3F-3T would not be very beneficial - she would have to replace her solo 3T with a triple that would not violate the Zayak rule (3Lz) or 2A (the amount of points gained might not be worth the risk).
Another reason could be a simple stamina issue - after doing 2 3As Mao might not have had any energy left to attempt a 3-3. The only time she went for 3-3 while attempting 2 triple axels was in the the second half of her LP at Nationals. But doing jumps in the 2nd half is risky as well. Even YuNa does not attempt that - though technically it could be beneficial (11 points of base value instead of 10), practically it's just not worth the risk.

prettykeys · Dec 7, 2009

How's my new one on post #17?!?!? :biggrin:

Oscilla · Dec 7, 2009

prettykeys said:
How's my new one on post #17?!?!?

Better.

But still, the base value is only 45.25, compared to 48.25 of the jump layout that I proposed. You are missing one combo... But even with 2L tacked onto 3L it will be "only" 46.90. Plus, the judges love to downgrade combos ending in 3L, so it's more risky.

To contrast, even if I replaced 3S with 2A in my layout, it would be still 47.25. Why? SImply, because I put high-scoring triples (3L-2L-2L, 3F, 3F-3L, 3L) in the 2nd half, and their base value gets multiplied by 1.1. It actually bumps up the base value very nicely. Back in 05-06 Mao was actually able to score very high with no 3S, 3T or 3-3 in the LP - only thanks to 3A and backloading her combos ending in 2L.

And it's not only the base value at stake - the GoEs are just important. If I was Mao's coach, I would get rid of everything that could make the judges go downgrade-happy and put my money on jumps that Mao gets a high GoE on. Just for the Olympic season, of course - then Mao could work on 3Lz and 3-3s again.

Ideal jump layout for Mao?

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