Does the fact that Michelle is without an OGM ruin her image/legacy?

Cute, Mathman, real cute.

When I see a thread like this, I realize that I'm probably not a good fan of skating. I'm much less interested in statistics than I ought to be. Of course I'm happy when certain skaters win, but really, I just like watching skaters that I think are good. Evidence: to this day, one of my favorite skaters is still Katherine Healy, who probably never did a triple jump in her life. She turned pro when she was about 14, because she wanted to perform and didn't feel the need to continue with competitive skating. Here's a montage of her skating and also dancing ballet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_QhuJrDVW0

So if Michelle had racked up three golds, or if like Browning she just had had a total Olympic jinx and won no medals at all, I'd love her the same as I do now, just as I love Browning--and Sasha, and Paul Wylie, and Yuka. I'm sure I'm not alone in this.

Are Sarah Hughes and Tara Lipinski, the two ladies who beat Michelle for the OGM, to be considered better skaters, with better reputations, because they have OGMs and Michelle does not? Gag me if the answer is in the affirmative.

Boitano put it the best: Michelle went on to accomplish so much that those achievements kind of negates (or, at least, equalizes) the fact that she doesn't have an OGM. If we were talking about a skater with a lesser competitive record, the same standard probably wouldn't apply.

the answer is simply: No. she has a bronze and a silver, numerous world and national titles... and just about everyone in her country knows who she is... or at the very least know she's the queen of figure skating [in this country].

even now she's been out of the sport for four years and she still dominates just about every thread whether they have ANYTHING to do with her or not.



Kurt Browning is a four time world champion, a national champion, and he never hit the podium, yet he's listed as one of the greatest skaters of all time by many/most fans... he continued to grow and succeed in teh sport long after he stopped olympic elligible competition... another skater to prove that it's not all about the gold.





that doesn't stop either of them for wondering what if.

I won't quote Andalusia and Tonichelle, but obviously I agree with both!

Tonichelle, I also understand why you would post your last sentence, about how each of them probably wonders--or at least wondered--what if. I think that's a regret everyone who skates has about the OGM, especially someone who came close, such as Stojko and Orser (ironically, both of those men twice). As Janet Lynn said once, there's a process you work through. Then, if you're strong enough, you move on. Especially as you attain greater maturity, it becomes easier.

What probably makes it easiest, though, for skaters like Kwan and Browning is that they see they've become so iconic that they've made the gold both superfluous and irrelevant. How much more could Browning or Kwan embody their country's skating achievements? Each of them is on every "Greatest ever" list made by every North American fan or sports writer--at or near the top, depending on personal style preference. (I suspect they're admired around the world, but I don't want to say something I can't verify.) Their reputation, their image, and their legacy have been earned the hard way, and they don't need any further reinforcement. In a way, it's kind of fascinating that two of the greatest skaters ever to come from this hemisphere were both unlucky at the Olympics and yet made that fact immaterial. For some reason, that appeals to the rebel in me...though I'm sure I'd love them just as much even if (giggle) they had earned the OGM.

hmmmmmmm KW is eerily quiet... could my post have killed her from the shock that I actually said something remotely positive/praising of Michelle?

I agree with the poster who said if Michelle won OGM, it would be teh cherry on the top of the perfect sundae. That's the perfect description! I think not having OGM does not tarnish all the great things Michelle accomplished over her career-both in medals and what she brought to the sport. I would never downplay the accomplishment of an OGM and think for some, ir really does define their career. If Sarah had retired after 2003 without OGM, the greatest medal she won would've been Bronze at Worlds and GPF. Would people talk about her? She may not be nearly as popular or well known as Michelle, but she had her moment of glory and will forever be an OGM. Same for Tara, in a different way. Had she not won and still retired, we FS fans would talk about her often, about her amazing consistency, the 3lp/3lp, the terrible consequences of doing the lp/3lp, and the fact she won Worlds and Nats as a 14 year old. But I doubt many non-figure skating fans would recognize her name without that OGM...and who knows how many once every 4 years FS fans do know who she is with that medal.

I had dinner with some friends last night and casually brought up the approaching 2010 Olympics. One friend, knowing I love FS (I may be a huge FS fan, but I don't really talk about it), asked me if Michelle would there (Michelle is on 1st name basis!). I told them what has happened with her since 2006. Then I asked if they remember who won back then, and one person knew the winner was a skater was from Japan. I asked who won in 2002 and the closest anyone came was,"Sarah something...a girl from NY with Dorothy's haircut." They all were convinced Michelle had won Gold at one of the Olympics and were surprised when I said no. No one had a clue who won in 1992, 94 or 98. And these were the typical once every 4 years fans, who enjoyed seeing FS, but had no idea who was who, or even who was on the 2006 US team. But yet they all are aware of who Michelle is.

So that for me, shows Michelle does transcend OGM just because with or without that medal, she is an icon, the face of the sport of our generation.

Certainly not! During her hayday, she was the face of figure skating in North America to an extent that has not been matched since. And this was without an OGM. And during her absence, she is still remembered fondly as The Kween, and not just by fans. Newbies like Rachael Flatt cite her as a role model. A fair part of this is, in my opinion, due to the fact that she conducts herself with the utmost dignity and grace on and off the ice.

Are you Kidding?

This is really an inane question/thread. People will remember Michelle Kwan long after all of us are dead and gone, including the person who started this thread.

While I agree with you, Kyla2, that people will remember Michelle for ages and ages to come, this is not an inane thread at all.

I just reread the comment of the thread's original poster, and it says that that person is new to skating, and just wants to get the lay of the land. This person (I'm assuming its a guy from the name) feels "constantly moved by how much emotion and expression she skated with" --so it's not as if anyone is saying that Kwan is somehow sliding down the scale of acclaim. The word "ruined" in the question is probably a bit strong, but I think the idea is a great springboard for discussion. Of course, most people, whether uberfans or not, will answer something off the order of "not in a million years," but isn't it fun having the chance to explain why?

Hey, it's a way to get to have a Michelle thread in a non-Michelle Olympic year. How bad can that be?

DesertRoad said:

Of course not, when you put it that way. But would her legacy and stature be vastly improved if she did have that bit of hardware? Of course! The audience and attention the Olympics gets is on another plane compared to world and national championships. And the three times when the eyes of the world were on her, they saw her fall short. They're going to remember her as the athlete who choked when it counted. No matter how you spin it, it's not a plus for Ms. Kwan's legacy.

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Uhm she didn't choke as you put it. Tara was judged better in Nagano and folks are still arguing about that one. She had a so so performance in Salt Lake (she was uptight there) and was injured in Torino.

2002 is the only time you can think of her a choking... her fall/squat thing where she didn't just bounce right up was a bit of a choke, but she still came out the winner... Sarah's moment was that night, but Michelle is still more well known, and loved... whether we non-fans want to believe it or not

Michelle Kwan is bigger than OGM. I hope she knows that.

YN fan said:

Yeah man, Yuna is probably the only skater who wishes she doesn't become any more famous. Korean media follow her around like tabloids follow Angelina jolie and Brad Pitt. As much as I want to see her skate one more year, I think it's also good for Yuna if she wants to retire after the olympic and try to live a normal life.

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Korean media has been insane. Japanese media has been bad, too, although not close to them.

the Olympic Gold Medal is what other skaters aim for to try to imitate what Michelle had.

Tonichelle said:

2002 is the only time you can think of her a choking... her fall/squat thing where she didn't just bounce right up was a bit of a choke, but she still came out the winner... Sarah's moment was that night, but Michelle is still more well known, and loved... whether we non-fans want to believe it or not

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How so? Just curious...

Oh, wait a minute, now I get it. You meant in the long run? I'm kind of sloooow today!

yes in the long run... OGM isn't everything... no matter how much others try to push otherwise.

While Kwan is still great and has a place in skating history without an Oh Gee Em, let's put to bed this idea that she is somehow better off without it.

The popular argument goes that if she had won in Nagano, she'd have retired from amateur skating. Let's say she would've. She'd retire as a massive national hero, with opportunities every which way. She could have gone into pro skating, and brought some much needed attention there and kept that circuit going. Think Yamaguchi, except with a higher baseline of popularity.

Or ya know, she would've continued for a few more seasons. Then the argument goes that she wouldn't have been as hungry for gold. Well, winning a ton of gold medals in nationals and worlds didn't stop her from winning more, did it? And if she did scale back a little, or went away and came back to amateur skating later, she may have prevented the injuries we now know she had.

If she continued amateur skating with the pressure of winning the Olympics behind her, she could've skated with greater freedom and joy, and may well have avoided whatever tension between her and Frank Caroll that fractured their fruitful partnership. She could've been a much greater skater for it.

And that's 1998. If she had won gold in 2002 instead, it'd be an even bigger media story, a story of an epic quest and redemption. Statues and movie offers, Asian-American actresses finally getting lead roles, and so much more.

And if she had won in 2006? It would be the sports story of the century. She'd have so much cachet the pope would have to kneel and kiss her ring when he visits her... in her palace... on the moon.

As it is, she's a retired athlete that fans may revere, but still feel a little bad for, 'cause they know how much she wanted that gold medal and how close she came to it. She's like a war hero... from one of the wars we didn't win.

so life exists only to win olympic gold

wow... no wonder the rest of us lead such horrible, undeserving, miserable, pitiful lives...

Tonichelle said:

so life exists only to win olympic gold

wow... no wonder the rest of us lead such horrible, undeserving, miserable, pitiful lives...

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Thanks for explaining to me what my life has been missing all of these years

Tinymavy15 said:

the Olympic Gold Medal is what other skaters aim for to try to imitate what Michelle had.

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I'm with you, Tinymavy!

I don´t know about Kwan´s legacy, but to me it seems that especially in USA she is and has been a popular skater even without managing to win the most prestigious title of all = an Olympic gold medal at two Olympics. I think that besides her popularity, the history will also remember that lack. If she had won that title even once, and she had two excellent possibilities for it, I would see her as the greatest lady skater of our time, instead of being a good Worlds competitor.

Especially in Kwan´s case it´s historically rather interesting and also embarrassing to see that out of all at least two-time lady World champions almost everyone of those who participated in Olympics became also Olympic gold medalist. The only exceptions are Kwan with her 5 World titles, Gabriele Seifert and Linda Fratianne with 2 World titles. Of course there are a few one time WC champions who also became Olympic gold medalists and some World medalists who won the OG. E.g. Dorothy Hamill won the Worlds in the same season she won the Olympics.