Championship of Russia 2010 | Page 17 | Golden Skate

Championship of Russia 2010

jcoates

Medalist
Joined
Mar 3, 2006
I can't share the same sentiments(speaking as a brown face) as others on the subject. For me the definition of racism is lot liberal, that is something like if someone attacks me because of the race or holds a prejudice against me during an interview because of my race , thats is racism. here, in the board i have seen some caroline fans complaining that her UR calls are due to racism, which i completely disagree.

i may feel this way because i have never been on the receiving end of any racist behavior, while i was abroad or in my country because i was born long after british had left India; may be my grandparents may have a different view on the subjects.

Interesting i found it funny when europeans acting as indian in western movies would just rub their face against charcoal to look more indian (honestly we laugh).

Just one question, Did the movie " tropic thunder" create any racism debate, or was the explanation given in the story good enough.

I think the difference between your perception and mine is that in the US and Canada, blacks are definite minority groups that have always been subject to the will of the majority. Blacks in the States (I'm not as sure of Canadian history on this matter) have had to pull up from a base of no political power whatsoever from a time when they were considered literal property and commondities rather than persons to our current status today. Along the way there were significant struggles to claim every bit of social status and political equality that exists today. While our size, political and cultural influence are growing and many past issues have been addressed, if not resolves there is still a great deal more to be tackled before any sort of declaration can be made that these problems are behind us. In fact, complacency even for a generation, can lead to a recurrence of many problems thought to have been defeated. BTW, I hesitate to link to it for fear of violating forum rules, but I would suggest that if you are interested in learning more about the topic, you look up the article on blackface on Wikipedia. It gives an excellent summary of the issues and history involved as well as a number of visual examples.

My understanding of Indian history and culture (please correct me if I am wrong) is that while that are many diverse ethnic and religious groups in the nation, there is a strong national Indian identity. While under British rule, the situation was not dissimilar to than in any of their other colonies in that the power rested with a minority group. Still, if I recall, the British model was to make use of existing political structures withing a country under colonization in order to draw sufficient support for their presence and to allow for stability given their own relatively small numbers. I think this is a significant difference between the experiences of India and the US. It is far easier to laugh off potentially offensive portrayals when your are in the majority or have the majority of the power. If you are still in a position of relative vulnerability, then you are likely to have a different impression. Of course this is why laws exist in the US and elsewhere to shield various minorities or protected classes against forms of discrimination, because social progress is not always permanent of its own accord and sometimes you need rules, written or not to enforce and forward strides a society makes.

Regarding Tropic Thunder, you bring up a very interesting case. I was frankly shocked when I first heard of how Robert Downey Jr.'s character was to be played. Of course at that point there was very little known about the movie at all, so there were few details available.. However, I later learned two important facts. First it was mockumentary/movie within a movie which always are send ups of particular subculture or profession and reveal their flaws from the inside. Second, the intent was necessarily not a "straight" blackface performance where donning the makeup was the end goal just so Downey could have the part. The point was to make very strong satirical and social commentary about acting as a profession (the point of the whole movie actually) and the lengths to which its various participants will go to play a part or create a film by giving an insider's point of view into a farcical film making process gone wrong.

In America at least, it has become something of a joke to hear about actors "suffering" for their craft while also being paid $10-20 million a film. Still they will gain or lose significant amounts of fat or muscle, wear expensive prosthetics, etc. in order to portray a character and hopefully win acting awards for their sacrifice. However, for reasons I have already stated, donning makeup to change one's racial appearance for a performance, is highly taboo. That most offensive of taboos along with the whole method acting process was deliberately inserted into film in order to demonstrate how absurd the overly serious process of acting and artistic endeavor can all become if taken too literally.

In that way, an element of humor was intentionally inserted giving the audience the "power of the majority" and making the actor the butt of the joke. This produced a reaction somewhat similar to the one you mentioned above where portrayals of Indians by foreigners are found to be humorous. The difference is that many of those portrayals, like the movie within a movie in Tropic Thunder are meant to be serious. However, the overall film revealed how badly wrong things can go when this is blindly attempted as a serious endeavor in the name of one's craft with no awareness of the perception of others. Because that I was not offended by the movie as a whole and quite enjoyed seeing it.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
BTW, Tarasova has a huge problem with the use of belts. There is a translation of her commentary in the comments section on this blog:

http://auntjoyceicecreamstand.blogspot.com/2009/12/oh-wow.html

And there have been many other people who were not happy with D/S's OD, particularly the blackface, and the fact that the music is South Indian and not Australian. Google blackface and Domnina to find them.

jcoates, thank you very much for a complete and thoughtful explanation of why blackface is offensive.

BTW, I have read the take of 2 Australians, one an ice dance judge, and the other who was involved with the Australian team that presented an Australian Aborigine OD in 2008 (consulting with Australian dancers to be sure they were respecting the culture), and they were both very unhappy with this D/S OD, particularly the tone, costuming, and the inauthenticity of the music.
 
Last edited:

jcoates

Medalist
Joined
Mar 3, 2006
Thanks. I read that translation last night. It will be interesting to see if changes are made to their FD.

BTW, now that we know a bit of what she is saying, she sounds just a lovably cantankerous as Mr. Button. :)

ETA: BTW one of the reasons this is such a big issue for me beyond matters of race and culture is that such a controversy would be very bad for skating in general and ice dance in particular. Two controversy free Olympics in a row would be huge for Ice dance after the problems in the 90's and 2002. There are so many good teams now an with wonderful programs. Fair judging (fingers crossed) and diverse placements could re-legitimize the discipline. It would be a shame if they were overshadowed by a cultural controversy.

If Speedy really is invested in reclaiming some of the western audiences the sport has lost over the years, then someone, either in the Russian federation or the ISU should really communicate the sensitive nature of this problem to D/S. They may well be completely unaware of what a mess they are about to step into. I think they could skim past the issues with the music and choreography if they just lost the dark makeup (at least with a general viewing audience). Tribal marking would likely be ok for most, but the brownface will definitely push buttons.

Judging by the reactions on other site and forums, there definitely seems to be a divide in understanding of this issue across national borders. IT would be a real shame if this controversy continued.
 
Last edited:

herios

Medalist
Joined
Jan 25, 2004
Thanks. I read that translation last night. It will be interesting to see if changes are made to their FD.

BTW, now that we know a bit of what she is saying, she sounds just a lovably cantankerous as Mr. Button. :)

They better do some changes because this FD is so bad that it ruined my evening, when I watched it for the first time. This dance should have not been placed ahead of Bobrova / Soloviev or Rubleva / Shefer. I am sorry, Oksana and Maxim used to skate well, but this is a farce. Their skating is slow, laboured, pulling and dragging each other across the ice. Ice dance is supposed to have close holds to be of high quality, have yuou sen any of those? I have not. No unison in their free leg lines, the first rotational lift is ugly (Oksana's bent knees are in a unattractive position), the muusic inspire you to go to church and pray for some sins, and all I am wondering how much more this joke is going to last.
I understand that Maxim is hurt, but it will be a shame if this dance will be marked higher than Pec / Bou, Fai / Sca or the Kerrs, and I am talking about the content alone, not even the execution. If they will win it will be political only and i think a new scandal is in the making if they manage to come out on top with this.
 
Last edited:

bigsisjiejie

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 22, 2009
I really appreciate everyone's comments on this. The reason I brought it up was because my immediate reaction to this OD was so strongly negative that when I didn't see anyone else saying anything, I thought I might be off-base. I'd love to hear from more people in other places. How is this seen in Australia? Japan? China?

I finally watched the OD and FD and was struck absolutely speechless. I was appalled. I thought these were two of the worst dances I've ever seen from a "top" team, on all elements: content, construction, and execution of the dances. Won't even go into the costuming/makeup for the OD. I had problems with D/S winning Worlds last year (IMHO, they didn't belong on the podium), but this is going backwards from that point. It's clear that they are in poor physical shape--Maxim has an excuse but Oksana also? What has she been doing for most of 2009? I don't think even if Maxim's knees were to miraculously heal overnight, that they could train heavily and pull these off successfully at Olympics. And Maxim's knee(s) are in such bad shape that I don't see how heavy training is even possible. They need to back off now, withdraw and retire from competitive skating to maintain any shred of dignity. Shame on the Russian Federation for feeling so desperate for a podium chance that they allow this to be foisted on the skating world. And for inflating their scores in the Nationals to the point their own home audience was left head scratching.

I showed these dances to some Chinese skating fans and their reaction was similar. Though it is true that due to cultural differences, unlike me, they don't pick up on the offensiveness of the brownface and the overall patronizing caricaturing of the OD. On a more unified note, the consensus was that the only way these dances/performances could be anywhere near a Euro or Olympic podium (or even top 10) was with corrupt judging and/or payoffs by the Russian Fed.
 
Last edited:

oxade21

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 24, 2004
god, the Canadians never stop, do they? Every year, it's something. Now it's Black Face.
 

bigsisjiejie

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 22, 2009
god, the Canadians never stop, do they? Every year, it's something. Now it's Black Face.

I find Europeans to be among the most insensitive and tone-deaf people in the world. Chip-on-shoulder, elitists, colonialists. Most of them just "don't get it" and the post above shows this.
 

Dodhiyel

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 13, 2003
Was this OD really supposed to represent the native population of Australia? The white body-paint effect suggests that, but it looks so inaccurate in design to me. The music has no Australian aborigine sound to it; where is the didgeridoo? The OD this season is supposed to be a folk dance/country dance, not a cultural hodge-podge.

I like Oksana and Maksim, and I believe they deserve better. I want them to get the respect they deserve at the Olympics, and I do not think this programme will accomplish that.
 

Tinymavy15

Sinnerman for the win
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 28, 2006
BTW, now that we know a bit of what she is saying, she sounds just a lovably cantankerous as Mr. Button. :)

I want Tat to commentate on NBC. subtitle it. She has to be better than our bunch of clowns.
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
god, the Canadians never stop, do they? Every year, it's something. Now it's Black Face.

But it's the RUSSIANS who are skating (quite badly) with plants growing out of their skates to music that has nothing whatsoever to do with Australian aboriginal culture, not the Canadians.

Disregarding the blackface (which is completely offensive) their OD is awful and their FD is even worse. They were once fine ice dancers, but that is not the case this year. Given that Shabalin's knees are as good as they are going to get, they would do best to retire now and spare themselves further embarrassment.

If, as has been suggested, the RFSF has somehow "arranged" an Olympic medal for them, there will be unfortunate repercussions.
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
I find Europeans to be among the most insensitive and tone-deaf people in the world. Chip-on-shoulder, elitists, colonialists. Most of them just "don't get it" and the post above shows this.

Keep in mind that the persona you're responding to is dedicated to bashing Canadian skaters (see his signature). As displayed by a majority of the responses here, people are more curious than not about responses.
 

herios

Medalist
Joined
Jan 25, 2004
But it's the RUSSIANS who are skating (quite badly) with plants growing out of their skates to music that has nothing whatsoever to do with Australian aboriginal culture, not the Canadians.

Disregarding the blackface (which is completely offensive) their OD is awful and their FD is even worse. They were once fine ice dancers, but that is not the case this year. Given that Shabalin's knees are as good as they are going to get, they would do best to retire now and spare themselves further embarrassment.

If, as has been suggested, the RFSF has somehow "arranged" an Olympic medal for them, there will be unfortunate repercussions.


I usually don't pay attention to details such as costume or decorations, so therefore i could care less if they paint teir faces in purple. But what I do care about is the dance and how the music nuances are captured in the dancers moves. And boy were these 2 dances a complate disaster...there is no justification to rob the other russian teams in the first place of an Olympic berth, that is the first thing it came to my mind.
How can you compare this FD on that horrible sound to the lovley FD Faiella and Scali have this year ? I will not mention the Kerr's or Pechalat Bourzat, etc. Any of those dances are miles better. Thiese were caricatures pulled together and clearly Max is in no shape to dance. Period. I hope the judges in Tallin will have some backbone and dump them to avoid the scandal in the Olympics, because the ISU will walk on a very thin ice if these guys will be propped up onto the Olympic podium.
 

Hsuhs

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 8, 2006
god, the Canadians never stop, do they? Every year, it's something. Now it's Black Face.

I read the other board, and it seems the very idea of DomShab's OD is unfortunate. The dance may be found offensive not only because of the make-up and costumes, but also because of the moves and even the fact that non-Aboriginal persons are performing it.

Looks like the only way they can proceed with it in it's current form, is to get an official approval from Australian Aboriginals.

I was about to suggest to leave the dance alone, and to play it safe, that is - to perform to the music from Carmen. But on the second thought, Carmen may be seen as a caricatural portrayal of Gypsy people, created in mid 1880s, when the world was very different from what it is today. So maybe the music is not suited for ODs either.

I find Europeans to be among the most insensitive and tone-deaf people in the world. Chip-on-shoulder, elitists, colonialists. Most of them just "don't get it" and the post above shows this.

In your description of Europeans, do you refer to Native Europeans, as well as Asian-Europeans and African-Europeans? Those who practice Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism or Buddhism?
 

Ptichka

Forum translator
Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
But on the second thought, Carmen may be seen as a caricatural portrayal of Gypsy people, created in mid 1880s, when the world was very different from what it is today. So maybe the music is not suited for ODs either.
Assuming, of course, that the judges have actually read Merime!
 

bigsisjiejie

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 22, 2009
I read the other board, and it seems the very idea of DomShab's OD is unfortunate. The dance may be found offensive not only because of the make-up and costumes, but also because of the moves and even the fact that non-Aboriginal persons are performing it.

Looks like the only way they can proceed with it in it's current form, is to get an official approval from Australian Aboriginals.

<snip>
In your description of Europeans, do you refer to Native Europeans, as well as Asian-Europeans and African-Europeans? Those who practice Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism or Buddhism?

1) It's a phony "aboriginal" dance using music from a south Indian tradition. You need not be a smart-aleck, as this thread shows, the vast majority of us aren't buying into this craptacular program. The general non-skating fan public will buy into it...even less. What the judges will do, I have no idea.

2) The white Europeans. Around my current location, specifically the Russians, Germans, and the French have the worst reputations for smug, elite, self-serving attitudes by far. Their religion (or lack thereof) seems not to make any difference. Make of that what you will.
 

Hsuhs

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 8, 2006
2) The white Europeans. Around my current location, specifically the Russians, Germans, and the French have the worst reputations for smug, elite, self-serving attitudes by far. Their religion (or lack thereof) seems not to make any difference. Make of that what you will.

Well, I thought with your generalization of Europeans you were trying to get back at oxade21 for her generalization of Canadians. But, first of all, oxade21 wrote 'the Canadians', and second, while Canada is one country, Europe is not. That is why I asked if you could specify/ locale. So thank you for doing that.

I'm still not sure if you've succeeded, because after all the time on this board, I don't know who oxade21 is, and where (s)he is from, but maybe you know more than me.

Not being anywhere near your location (which I assume is Beijing, China?), I can't really say if I agree/ disagree with your take on the people of those nationalities / race. Linking attitudes to a specific nationality/ race may be questionable, but since an attitude is a variable characteristic, a 'state' rather than a 'trait', it's ok with me.
 

oxade21

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 24, 2004
Well, I thought with your generalization of Europeans you were trying to get back at oxade21 for her generalization of Canadians. But, first of all, oxade21 wrote 'the Canadians', and second, while Canada is one country, Europe is not. That is why I asked if you could specify/ locale. So thank you for doing that.

I'm still not sure if you've succeeded, because after all the time on this board, I don't know who oxade21 is, and where (s)he is from, but maybe you know more than me.

Not being anywhere near your location (which I assume is Beijing, China?), I can't really say if I agree/ disagree with your take on the people of those nationalities / race. Linking attitudes to a specific nationality/ race may be questionable, but since an attitude is a variable characteristic, a 'state' rather than a 'trait', it's ok with me.

:rock: Well, I am located in USA but I am Asian. Honestly, no attack intended but since I started browsing this board in 2004, every year we hear how awful Dom/Shabs are and every year there is new reason. It just happens that complaints come from supporters of certain teams. This year we have the new low, D/S are racist. ENOUGH with this garbage!
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
:rock: Well, I am located in USA but I am Asian. Honestly, no attack intended but since I started browsing this board in 2004, every year we hear how awful Dom/Shabs are and every year there is new reason. It just happens that complaints come from supporters of certain teams. This year we have the new low, D/S are racist. ENOUGH with this garbage!

NO ONE is accusing DomShabs of being racist.

DomShabs are European and like many of the Europeans on the boards, have no idea how offensive blackface is to North Americans. They may be ignorant of the culture, customs and attitudes of the country where they've been living and training for the past year, but no one has suggested that they have deliberately tried to insult or offend anyone with face painting.

Their coach, Linichuk, has lived in the US for at least 15 years and should have known better. She should also have consulted with legitimate Australian advisors as to the choreographic content and music used for the OD. The music is actually Indian in origin, not Australian, and Australians have commented that the dance itself is not Australian aborigine either.

This year, because of Shabalin's probably incurable injury, DomShabs are no longer the great ice dancers they were in the past. So the comments (in addition to the objections to the blackface) have been negative about their skating because their skating is nowhere near what it used to be.

And furthermore, oxade21, you have always exclusively supported Russian pair and dance teams above all others, so you are not exactly the most unbiased observer around. Your "outrage" about the blackface issue has to be taken for what it is.
 
Last edited:

Dodhiyel

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 13, 2003
One can do a theatrical presentation of another culture without it being an obvious pastiche. One of the finest examples of this was the Anissina-Peizerat flamenco OD. They achieved a remarkable air of authenticity by spending a good deal of time in Spain, absorbing the true feel of flamenco, so that they could later express it on the ice. Pretty much everyone loved what they presented.

Sometimes there is a thin line between an homage and a caricature, but there is no thin line in this case. The new D&S OD is a caricature, that is all.

It is regrettable that some antagonistic nationalistic feelings have intruded into what ought to be an objective analysis of a programme. Even the great Russian choreographer Tatyana Tarasova expressed her reservations about this programme, *as a programme*. Surely we can do the same.

Comparing this "Aboriginal Dance" (quoted from D&S ISU Bio for 2009/2010) to the frequent interpretations on ice of Bizet's "Carmen" is not relevant. "Carmen" is not presented as a Folk Dance/Country Dance. It is simply an opera. This is like trying to compare apples and oranges, and simply serves to obscure the points that critics of the new D&S programme are trying to present. Some critics may be quite fond of D&S, and are concerned to see them presenting this new OD. Personally, I do not like the idea that large numbers of people may be offended by this program, and/or that large numbers of people may even laugh at it scornfully. I do not want to see that happen, period.

It is always important to remember, in the creative process, that there is a difference between originality and absurdity. Not everything that is "different" is different in a good way.
 
Top