Yuna Kim | Page 103 | Golden Skate

Yuna Kim

OS

Sedated by Modonium
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Biellmann didn't invent the Biellmann spin either.


Yuna had to leave out her signature spin from her LP, again because of the sudden and nonsensical rule change right after the Olympics. The new rule does not allow skaters to change edges more than once during a given spin take, and if she was to include her "Yuna spin" in a spin then she would not be able to receive a level 4. Just another example of tolls the new rule is taking on Yuna's skating. Yuna also had to opt out of her 2A-3T, a combo she so consistently performs and always receives high GOEs, because of the new 'no three 2A' rule. I mean, if ISU aimed to up the skaters' technical aspects of their programs through the rule changes as they claim, shouldn't they limit the number of double jumps instead of 2A? The rule change made Yuna opt out of more difficult and impressive 2A-3T and instead choose less technically demanding 3S-2L. Just a stupid rule change with a stupid reasoning and they expect us to buy that at face value.

Ah I wondered about that too!! The LP missed out at least 2 of her signature moves that usually bring her good scores!

I wonder if she would consider putting them back on her show version of Homage to Korea, do it the Yuna way! Her spread eagle 2A+3T and Yuna Camel Spin are fabulous and has always been a cool feature of her program :)
 
Last edited:

silverlake22

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
Biellmann didn't invent the Biellmann spin either.


Yuna had to leave out her signature spin from her LP, again because of the sudden and nonsensical rule change right after the Olympics. The new rule does not allow skaters to change edges more than once during a given spin take, and if she was to include her "Yuna spin" in a spin then she would not be able to receive a level 4. Just another example of tolls the new rule is taking on Yuna's skating. Yuna also had to opt out of her 2A-3T, a combo she so consistently performs and always receives high GOEs, because of the new 'no three 2A' rule. I mean, if ISU aimed to up the skaters' technical aspects of their programs through the rule changes as they claim, shouldn't they limit the number of double jumps instead of 2A? The rule change made Yuna opt out of more difficult and impressive 2A-3T and instead choose less technically demanding 3S-2L. Just a stupid rule change with a stupid reasoning and they expect us to buy that at face value.

Well Yuna COULD have done her 2a-3t combo if she'd just have done a 3lo in her LP. I think the new rule is rewarding skaters who have the full set of triples and punishing those who don't, or those who can do all the triples but have issues with a certain one (Yuna and 3lo, Miki and 3f, Mirai and 3s, etc) and would rather play it safe. I actually think it's a good rule, because I was getting sick of the double axel loaded programs anyways. There's no reason why Yuna shouldn't be doing a 3lo and Miki shouldn't be doing a 3f in their LPs as we all know they can do those jumps. It seems a fair trade off, if you opt out of doing a certain type of triple jump, then you also have to opt out of doing a difficult combination (like Yuna's 2a-3t, Miki's 3lz-3lo, etc). Next season I really hope we start seeing more 7 triple LPs.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
Well Yuna COULD have done her 2a-3t combo if she'd just have done a 3lo in her LP. I think the new rule is rewarding skaters who have the full set of triples and punishing those who don't, or those who can do all the triples but have issues with a certain one (Yuna and 3lo, Miki and 3f, Mirai and 3s, etc) and would rather play it safe. I actually think it's a good rule, because I was getting sick of the double axel loaded programs anyways. There's no reason why Yuna shouldn't be doing a 3lo and Miki shouldn't be doing a 3f in their LPs as we all know they can do those jumps. It seems a fair trade off, if you opt out of doing a certain type of triple jump, then you also have to opt out of doing a difficult combination (like Yuna's 2a-3t, Miki's 3lz-3lo, etc). Next season I really hope we start seeing more 7 triple LPs.

I dunno, there are 2A's and then there is Yuna's 2A which IMO is sublime.
Given a choice between seeing Yuna's 2A and almost every other lady skater doing a triple I prefer Yuna.

Mirai uncorks a good 2A at times which looks like a totally different jump than what we see from so many of the ladies.

I wouldn't want to see three 2A's from skaters like Rachael, Caro, Christina, Kanako, Caroline, Alissa, etc, etc but always look forward to seeing the good 2A jumpers.

A good 2A is still one of my favorite jumps from the ladies. Watch Michelle and Lulu at the '96 WC and their 2A's were wonderful with good attack and lovely position on the flow out.

But I don't think it is necessarily bad to cut it from three to two if it encourages a full set of triples from the ladies. On the other hand part of me still prefers a free skate LP rather than a restricted CoP LP where everyone is doing the same thing.

Yuna's 3L+3T can be spectacular but so was her 2A+3T done out of a transition.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
But I don't think it is necessarily bad to cut it from three to two if it encourages a full set of triples from the ladies. On the other hand part of me still prefers a free skate LP rather than a restricted CoP LP where everyone is doing the same thing.

Sport versus art. :) In sport, everyone does the same thing and whoever does it best wins. In art everyone does something different and the whimsy of the art critics prevails.

I do like the rule about only two double Axels, and it is consistent with listing the double Axel as "the easiest triple" instead f "the hardest double" in the CoP rules.

I strongly believe that if you are competing for the championship you should demonstrate full mastery of your discipline. IMHO there are too many skaters who say, "I can do this, but I can't do that." -- and then wrack up so many CoP points doing "this" that it doesn't matter whether they can do "that" or not.
 

Serious Business

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 7, 2011
Well Yuna COULD have done her 2a-3t combo if she'd just have done a 3lo in her LP. I think the new rule is rewarding skaters who have the full set of triples and punishing those who don't, or those who can do all the triples but have issues with a certain one (Yuna and 3lo, Miki and 3f, Mirai and 3s, etc) and would rather play it safe.

Nope, currently the rule winds up rewarding skaters who attempt the 5 triples despite consistently getting edge calls. But because edge calls don't preempt the Zayak rule, they get to pack in both the 3/3 and the 2axel/3 combo (as in the case of Kanako Murakami, although hers was a 3flip~2a sequence).

In fact, if this is intended to skaters who don't do/attempt all 5 non-axel triples, then it'd be a rule punishing the entire field of women's skating. At the recent Worlds, a grand total of ZERO ladies skater successfully landed all 5 of those triples in the FS. The only high level (relatively) female skater currently competing who has shown herself repeatedly capable of landing the 5 different triples without edge calls is Rachael Flatt, and she doesn't particularly benefit from this rule at all!

The fact is, the rule changes don't directly reward/punish skaters with regards to the 5 triples. It only punishes the ones capable of consistently landing two 3/3 or 2/3 combos in the FS. If you don't, this rule doesn't affect you all this much. Rachael has never consistently landed the 3/3 or the 2axel/3 combo without UR calls. Indeed, her jump layout this season only had room for the 2/3 combo in the FS. She has no extra incentive to do all 5 triples at all.

So who is the one skater who consistently lands the 3/3 and 2/3 combo with no UR calls but can't do all 5 basic triples? It's just Yuna.

Now I don't necessarily always disagree with the idea of changing a rule/closing a loophole just because of one skater (take the Zayak rule for instance), but as with any sport, fairness is paramount. And I believe unless that skater does something truly egregious (like Zayak throwing out the same triple 4 times), the sports regulatory body should not implement a rule that solely penalizes one high profile competitor. It looks highly suspicious, as people will quite reasonably think that backdoor machinations made those rule changes take place. And unless it's something truly awful that needs correcting, why go there?

The other problem is that a rule change that would add bonus points to 3/3 combos was voted down. On the one hand, a rule change was put in to discourage 3/3 combos, which already get 0 bonuses over doing the jumps separately. And as I analyzed elsewhere, under many common situations, including a 3/3 already leaves a skater at a point disadvantage compared to other jump layouts. On the other hand, a rule that would reward 3/3 combos more was voted down. This is also rather unfair.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
In fact, if this is intended to skaters who don't do/attempt all 5 non-axel triples, then it'd be a rule punishing the entire field of women's skating....

I for one would be in favor of a rule that punishes the entire fiels of women's skating if they can't do all the jumps. It is kind of ironic that the CoP was supposed to reward (indeed, require) a "balanced program," yet presents many opportunities to load up on points doing just what you do best. A jump layout that did 2 (f)Lutzes, 2 flips, 2 double Axels, and a triple toe would score well without either a loop or a Salchow.

But you're right about the new rules punishing only a skater who does a triple-triple and does not have all her jumps. (How can a coach send his skater into senior competition without teaching her all the jumps, spins, steps, turns, etc., anyway?). Saving the "ganging up on Yu-na Kim" theory for another time, perhaps we can think of the rules as warning the skaters, you'd better learn all your jumps first before you start in with the advanced tricks like triple-triples.
 

EricRohmer

On the Ice
Joined
May 31, 2010
Nope, currently the rule winds up rewarding skaters who attempt the 5 triples despite consistently getting edge calls. But because edge calls don't preempt the Zayak rule, they get to pack in both the 3/3 and the 2axel/3 combo (as in the case of Kanako Murakami, although hers was a 3flip~2a sequence).

This.
 

Lilith11

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 1, 2010
I for one would be in favor of a rule that punishes the entire fiels of women's skating if they can't do all the jumps. It is kind of ironic that the CoP was supposed to reward (indeed, require) a "balanced program," yet presents many opportunities to load up on points doing just what you do best. A jump layout that did 2 (f)Lutzes, 2 flips, 2 double Axels, and a triple toe would score well without either a loop or a Salchow.

But you're right about the new rules punishing only a skater who does a triple-triple and does not have all her jumps. (How can a coach send his skater into senior competition without teaching her all the jumps, spins, steps, turns, etc., anyway?). Saving the "ganging up on Yu-na Kim" theory for another time, perhaps we can think of the rules as warning the skaters, you'd better learn all your jumps first before you start in with the advanced tricks like triple-triples.

To be fair to Yu-na, it's not like she hasn't landed the 3Loop in competition before; Cup of Russia 2007? 7 Triples I believe perfectly landed :3 So no, I wouldn't apply that scenario to Yu-na... I say it's more of a mental block in regards to her 3loop than anything else imo.
 

jaylee

Medalist
Joined
Feb 21, 2010
I for one would be in favor of a rule that punishes the entire fiels of women's skating if they can't do all the jumps.

I would be in favor of a rule that rewards or requires all six type of jump take-offs in the FS: axel, loop, toeloop, lutz, flip, and salchow.

Only two ladies in the top ten at Worlds attempted all six take-offs and got no edge calls: Yu-Na and Kiira Korpi.

Alena Leonova, Kanako Murakami, and Mao Asada attempted all six take-offs but got edge calls on their lutzes.

But you're right about the new rules punishing only a skater who does a triple-triple and does not have all her jumps. (How can a coach send his skater into senior competition without teaching her all the jumps, spins, steps, turns, etc., anyway?). Saving the "ganging up on Yu-na Kim" theory for another time, perhaps we can think of the rules as warning the skaters, you'd better learn all your jumps first before you start in with the advanced tricks like triple-triples.

Yu-Na had the 3Lo as a junior, though it was her trickiest triple then, too. It wasn't until she had more serious injuries to deal with during the 2006-2007 season that she started omitting it from her program entirely. No coach sent her into competition without her knowing all the jumps, spins, etc.

Actually, the majority of ladies skaters who have no triple/triple at all are omitting a triple today (see Czisny, Alissa and Nagasu, Mirai; apparently their salchows have run off with Kristi Yamaguchi's). It seems to me like no one intends to omit a triple, it just happens because everyone has a weak jump and the risks outweigh the rewards under the current scoring system.

And as a counter example, one of the few top ladies skaters who had all five triples, Joannie Rochette, didn't have a consistent triple/triple--and never won a major ISU title, not GPF, 4CCs, Worlds. (Of course, she could have had she had her best performance at the right time/place, but results are results.) Having a consistent 3/3 certainly does help in the SP, even if one doesn't have all five basic triples.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
By the way, just for reference ;)

Michelle Kwan did all five triples different triples and a double Axel at 1994 Worlds, 1995 U.S. Nationals, 1995 Worlds, 1995 Skate America, 1995 Skate Canada, 1996 U.S. Nationals, 1996 Worlds, 1996 Grand Prix Finals, 1997 Worlds, 1997 Skate America, 1998 U.S. Nationals, 1998 Olympics, 1998 Worlds Qualifying, 1998 World Pro, 1999 U.S. Nationals, 1999 World Qualifying, 2000 Worlds Qualifying, 2000 Worlds, 2000 Skate America, 2001 U.S. Nationals, 2001 Worlds Qualifying, 2001 Worlds, 2001 Skate America, 2002 Grand Prix Final, 2002 U.S. Nationals, 2002 Worlds, 2003 U.S. Nationals, 2003 Worlds Qualifying, 2003 Worlds, 2004 U.S. Nationals, and 2004 Worlds.

Just saying…
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I would be in favor of a rule that rewards or requires all six type of jump take-offs in the FS: axel, loop, toeloop, lutz, flip, and salchow.

I like the way you put this. This would give an extra penalty for a wrong-edge take-off (no bonus in addition to negative GOE).

jaylee said:
Czisny, Alissa and Nagasu, Mirai; apparently their salchows have run off with Kristi Yamaguchi's.

The difference being that Kristi, skating under 6.0, soldiered determinedly on, never quitting, doubling it at the Olympics yet landing on the top step of the podium bloodied but unbowed. :)

Under CoP scoring this would be a foolish choice. Instead you can blow off the Salchow and throw in an extra higher-valued jump that you are better at.
 
Last edited:

jaylee

Medalist
Joined
Feb 21, 2010
By the way, just for reference ;)
Just saying…

By the way....just for reference. # of triple/triple combinations Michelle completed, in ISU/Nationals/fluff competitions: 11

Yu-Na, ratified in ISU competitions only (excluding Korean Nationals, where I think she landed at least 3 that I know of) # of 3/3 combinations: 39

If you take a look at the eleven instances where Michelle successfully completed a 3/3, her clean performances (i.e. not missing any other jump) with that 3/3 is four performances at 3 competitions (2 of them came at 2001 Worlds, QR & LP). The other 7 instances led to her missing another jump somewhere else in the program.

Perhaps it's kinda hard to skate a completely clean LP when you attempt and execute a 3/3, eh?

Yu-Na, btw, has done at least 4 competitions where she had a 3/3 and hit 7 triples: 2005 Junior Worlds QR, 2005 JGPF, 2006 Korean Nationals LP, and 2007 Cup of Russia. She's had a few more where she hit the 3/3 and the five standard triples but perhaps missed another jump.

I am a HUGE Michelle fan and a huge Yu-Na fan, but stats can be massaged anyway you want.
 

OS

Sedated by Modonium
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Read incredible stats like these during Yuna's early years always makes me a little regretful for her.

It makes one wonder what 'could have been' had she been training properly in a warm rink, under supervision of world class coaches and physiotherapist looking after her well being with a view of a long career. The type of conditions all her competitors have enjoyed and benefited from. I recall reading her early teens when she used to train at crazy hours from something like 8pm - 1am, and 6am - 9am everyday so she could still go to school. Not her choice obviously, but that is the reality of Korean figure skating. Surely these crazy hours and freezing conditions on these rink would take its toll on any young body. If that is not dedication, I don't know what is.

While all ladies do go through adolescent change with their bodies, but her injuries around 07/08 seems so severe it obviously affect how much she could train, and the types of jumps that she should avoid due to recurring injuries. Ironically it forced her strategy to concentrate more on the artistic presentations, and being naturally musically gifted, she really benefited from this strategy. Luckily, it seems her growth spurt actually have ironed out these injuries and certainly having the fantastic team in Toronto plus her own personal physiotherapist have helped tremendously.
 

Serious Business

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 7, 2011
I for one would be in favor of a rule that punishes the entire fiels of women's skating if they can't do all the jumps. It is kind of ironic that the CoP was supposed to reward (indeed, require) a "balanced program," yet presents many opportunities to load up on points doing just what you do best

D: I would be for a rule that rewards skaters who do all 5 triples, but not one that punishes skaters who don't. In order to reach a competitive score under the COP, skaters are already required to showcase a vast variety of high level skills in not just jumps but footwork and spins and transitions. The variety of high level skills each skater display these days under the COP is overwhelming compared to what the top skaters did under 6.0. I definitely don't think the COP lacks incentive in getting skaters to show diversity in skill.

If anything, I'd rather the COP dial it back, and not just in jumps, either. I would rather see skaters display different skills and technique that they do best on their path to victory, than have all the skaters attempt similar convoluted spin positions and footwork. To me, penalizing skaters for not doing all 5 backward takeoff triples would be akin to punishing skaters for not doing both the biellmann and I-spin. The system already inherently rewards skaters who can do all 5 triples (they're the only ones who can do a 7 triple program). The skaters who can't are already at a disadvantage. Both devaluing the double axel and limiting it was too much, especially when 3/3 combos remain unrewarded.

Perhaps we can think of the rules as warning the skaters, you'd better learn all your jumps first before you start in with the advanced tricks like triple-triples.

I cannot disagree more with that philosophy. Skills such as triples or quads are already vanishingly rare. Only a tiny, tiny percentage of skaters who try will ever learn a fraction of those skills. This is a very very far cry from requiring skaters to do basic footwork and single jumps before they can pass a level test. To require skaters to stick to a strict, regimented ladder of achievement before they can display one high level skill or another would severely handicap many skaters. Just think of the past skaters it would harm:

Midori Ito is the greatest female jumper, undisputed. But she was a lipper. Should she be forbidden from doing her 3axel just because she didn't do a real 3flip?

Or how about her heir, Mao Asada. Mao has done the most ratified triple axels of any female skater ever, but we all know full well she is a flutzer. Should she be discouraged from doing the 3axel until she lands the 3lutz?

Or on the men's side, you have Stephane Lambiel. The guy can fire off quads no problem, but his 3axel was never quite there. Should he have to put off his quads if he doesn't land the 3axel (this would have likely taken away all chances he had of winning any major titles)?

Or Miki Ando. Back when she became the first woman to land a quad, the quad salchow, she didn't exactly start with the supposedly easier quad toe (in fact the quad salchow seems to be more doable for women). And at that point, she was a lipper, too.

I could go on. Tim Goebel was a flutzer. I think Plushenko and Yagudin are lippers.

The fact is, learning all the triple jumps properly is absurdly rare, and doing so doesn't guarantee great proficiency at even more advanced skills or better skating all around. At that level of skating, why not just reward skaters for what they do really well, and let them have a shot at victory even if they vary it up.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Yu-Na, ratified in ISU competitions only (excluding Korean Nationals, where I think she landed at least 3 that I know of) # of 3/3 combinations: 39

The contrast that I was trying to make is that between a winning program under ordinal judging and the winning approach under the CoP.

Michelle was the master of the 6.0 ordinal system. There were two principles.

(a) Don't lose it on the first mark; and

(b) Win it on the second.

For Michelle this meant, run through your complete technical repertroire without error. Then skate your heart out.

Under CoP judging the winning approach is to design your program so as to maximize the possible point harvest. When the rules change slightly, you change your layout appropriately to take advantage of new opportunities and/or to cut your losses.
 

jaylee

Medalist
Joined
Feb 21, 2010
The contrast that I was trying to make is that between a winning program under ordinal judging and the winning approach under the CoP.

Hmm, this sounds like a discussion better suited for a 6.0 vs. CoP thread. ;) Michelle performed the best she could under the 6.0 system, was rewarded under it, and so were the audiences. That's it for me.

In a real bit of Yu-Na news, she is currently part of Pyeongchan 2018 bidding team in Switzerland, and she recently mentioned Michelle.

http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/news?slug=reu-2018kim_interview

She now hopes her presence will help inspire younger Asian athletes to take up winter sports as well as help bring the Games back to Asia and for the first time to a country other than Japan, which has hosted both previous winter Olympics held on the continent.

“I watched (silver medallist) Michelle Kwan skate at the Nagano Olympics in Japan in 1998 and was inspired. I had a dream for the Olympics and I achieved my dream a year ago,” she said, speaking in English and Korean.

“Now I hope young athletes (in Asia) can be inspired by those competing in 2018,” she said.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
D: I would be for a rule that rewards skaters who do all 5 triples, but not one that punishes skaters who don't.

In an add-up-the-points system, withholding a reward is imposing a penalty.

Or on the men's side, you have Stephane Lambiel. The guy can fire off quads no problem, but his 3axel was never quite there. Should he have to put off his quads if he doesn't land the 3axel?

To his credit, Lambiel continued to include a triple Axel in his competitive programs even though it was a problem jump for him. :thumbsup:
 

silverlake22

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
N
So who is the one skater who consistently lands the 3/3 and 2/3 combo with no UR calls but can't do all 5 basic triples? It's just Yuna.

And Miki Ando. Her 3-3 sometimes gets downgraded but not always. And my point is that Yuna can do a 3lo and Miki can do a 3f, so if they want to do their big tricks, they should just suck it up and put the problem jump in their programs. For both skaters, I think the block is mental more than anything else. Also I think Yuna gets too much credit for being a great jumper, she's got a killer 3lutz and 2a, and 3t when done in combination, but she doesn't even do the 3t on its own, her salchow is not great, she lips her flip, and she hasn't attempted the loop in competition in years. So she's REALLY good at 2 kinds of jumps, maybe 3 depending on how you view the 3toe, but then the rest of her jumps are just ok. And I sort of feel the same about Miki, who's good at 3lz, 3lo, 3s but then only ok at 2a, 3t and doesn't do 3f anymore.

But the main point of my post is that they make these decisions, and in the case of Yuna, I don't get why she didn't replace one of her salchows with a toeloop, which again addresses the question: how come Yuna can do a killer 3t on the back end of a combination but never attempts it on its own? A smarter option IMO, if she really is that against doing a 3lo, would have been to keep her layout the same as last season but replaced the last 2a with a 2lz or something. Also I think Miki's 3s-3lo would be more likely to get ratified than her 3lz-3lo, which could be something to consider in future programs.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Yu-na can't include a solo 3T because she already has a 3Lz+3T and (one presumes) a 3S-3T planned. (Last year it was 3Lz+3T and 2A+3T).

Even if she only planned a 3S+2T, still her program has two Lutzes and two Salchows, so she can't do a second 3T.

That is basically Serious Business' point. Yu-na is the only skater that the change in rules punishes, because she is the only skater with two triple-triples, but not all five triples.
 
Last edited:
Top