Yuna Kim | Page 105 | Golden Skate

Yuna Kim

sunny0760

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
According to this article Yuna says she wants to compete in 2018.

"I fulfilled one Olympic dream by winning a Gold Medal in Vancouver. Now I have a new dream to help Pyeong Chang win the right to host the Winter Games in 2018."

"It would be so special for me to have the chance to host the Winter Games in Korea and have the opportunity to compete at home"

Perhaps Yuna is inspired by Plushenko :think:

http://www.sportsfeatures.com/olymp...ays-pyeongchang-2018-is-her-new-olympic-dream

Interesting because no Korean media is saying so. Only one Korean article says she may mean to participate in the Pyeongchang Olympics as a coach or a choreographer but nobody says it is certain.
Maybe 'the opportunity to help Korean athletes compete well at home.':p
Sure, I think she will help Koreans in every way if Pyeongchang host olys.

Her presentation seems to be a success!!:agree:
http://sportsphoto.news.naver.com/themePhotoList.nhn?id=23668#content

Yuna Kim: "I thought I would be a little nervous in the presentation. But I was very nervous!":laugh:
 
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parma

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 31, 2010
Another skater who trained under 6.0 and has a different perspective from that of maximizing points.

Example: Here is my 6.0 jump layout.

3Lz, 3Lz+2T, 3F, 3S, 3Lo, 3T+2T, 2A

Under CoP I toss out the loop and do

3Lz, 3Lz+2T, 3F, 3S, 3F+2T, 3T, 2A

Voila! Two-tenths of a point more (twenty-two hundredths of a point more with second half bonus).


No 2A-3T through. The rule change is just so... there is no better word to describe it than "stupid".
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
No 2A-3T through. The rule change is just so... there is no better word to describe it than "stupid".

Yuna can still do two 2A's. It was her team's choice to drop the 2A+3T.

I was surprised when Yuna did not do the 2A+3T. Lots of the ladies were doing it last season but none as well as Yuna.

The couple of points she might have added to her BV was most likely lost in her PCS.
Yes, it is sad but true that in the CoP jumps have alot to do with how PCS are scored.

Yuna has the best 2A+3T of any lady and dropping it brought her down a notch IMO.
 

parma

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 31, 2010
Yuna can still do two 2A's. It was her team's choice to drop the 2A+3T.

I was surprised when Yuna did not do the 2A+3T. Lots of the ladies were doing it last season but none as well as Yuna.

The couple of points she might have added to her BV was most likely lost in her PCS.
Yes, it is sad but true that in the CoP jumps have alot to do with how PCS are scored.

Yuna has the best 2A+3T of any lady and dropping it brought her down a notch IMO.

I am not saying she is forced to drop it from her program. The rule change made it unattractive to include 2A-3T because that way she has to give up more base points.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Yuna can still do two 2A's. It was her team's choice to drop the 2A+3T.

I was surprised when Yuna did not do the 2A+3T. Lots of the ladies were doing it last season but none as well as Yuna.

Yu-na's team was caught between a rock and a hard place by the new rules.

This is her 2011 jump layout.

3Lz+3T
3S+2T
3F
2A+2T+2Lo
3Lz
3S
2A

Assuming she wants to keep her 2A+2T+2Lo combination, worth 7.15 points with second half bonus, she has a big problem if she replaces her second element with 2A+3T.

3Lz+3T
2A+3T
3F
2A+2T+2Lo
3Lz
3S
???

What is her seventh jumping pass? She is Zayaked out. She cannot repeat a 2A or a 3T. She already has two repeated triples, so she cannot do another F or S. She's done.
 

Krislite

Medalist
Joined
Sep 22, 2010
Yuna can still do two 2A's. It was her team's choice to drop the 2A+3T.

I was surprised when Yuna did not do the 2A+3T. Lots of the ladies were doing it last season but none as well as Yuna.

The couple of points she might have added to her BV was most likely lost in her PCS.
Yes, it is sad but true that in the CoP jumps have alot to do with how PCS are scored.

Yuna has the best 2A+3T of any lady and dropping it brought her down a notch IMO.

She did one 2A+3T during the final group warm-up:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qzLgQ0z7U8

Go to the 5:00 minute mark. She practiced it probably just as a back-up in case she missed her 3Lz+3T as she did in the SP.
 

prettykeys

Medalist
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
YuNa could always replace her 3-3 with a 3-2 and spread her triples out. Also she'd probably get more points because then she could put her new solo triple into the second half of her LP and get the Ando-Morozov bonus. YuNa could also consider putting in two 3Lz's and two 3F's (without the "e", mind you, just like last season and this year's Worlds unless you think Amano and Oberwiler are Yuna fans.)

So...what is this? "I Don't Really Care If 3-3's Aren't Given Credit Because Michelle Kwan Didn't Really Do 3-3's" Month?

Like, seriously. YuNa could work on her anxiety/consistency/health issues she has with her 3Lo and put it back into her programs, but she has other options if she chooses not to do it. Some of these options entail her showcasing LESSER technical abilities in the LP while getting just as many--if not more--TES points than when she includes her 3-3. Apparently this principle pleases certain individuals.

I have been watching these discussions quietly but it's starting to bug me at this point. I am all for rule changes that may put YuNa at a disadvantage if they are coherent, fair, and promote better figure skating. I do not see how raising the value of the 3A, raising the value of the 3Lo, raising the value of quad jumps while not rewarding 3-3's or creating a rule change that would give a bonus for executing all 5 standard triples (or jump takeoffs in general) for the ladies is consistent and fair. It does honestly look to me like YuNa was seen by the ISU as the overpowered character in a videogame that needs to be "nerf'd" (as it is called in gaming circles) in order to more evenly distribute the winning potential of other skaters--that is, I do feel the changes were targeted at blunting her advantages.

For all those who are arguing in favour of more balanced and aesthetically pleasing programs, praytell how does Ando's Worlds LP qualify? As others have pointed out, it was one of the most contrived programs that I can recall and I wonder how many fans who were ummm, "glad" she won...will ever watch that program again? Are you celebrating because that was good? (Rhetorical question, not meant to be answered.) It was as unbalanced and ugly as a program I could have imagined (in my opinion :) ), even if Ando has improved in various skills like spins and steps. 2 jumping passes (no 3-3, despite this being a woman who is capable of difficult combinations), spins galore, posing section with no apparent meaning or connection to the music to rest until the halfway mark, followed by 5-jumping pass marathon to RIVETING STEP SEQUENCE OMG! (no.)

And YuNa is going to be criticized here when her fans are not happy with the decisions the ISU has made; protests which I think are valid whether you are a fan of YuNa or not.

Yeah, OK, carry on. :disapp:

Also, Serious Business - completely unrelated but mentioned elsewhere in this discussion...Alexei Yagudin was not a Lipper! I've never noticed him Lip, maybe he did once or twice, but he was certainly capable of a true and beautiful 3Flip. :biggrin:
 
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Joined
Jun 21, 2003
YuNa could always replace her 3-3 with a 3-2 and spread her triples out.

That is exactly what she did. She replaced her 2A+3T with 3S+2T and spread her triples out.

This was her only option under the new rules.

So...what is this? "I Don't Really Care If 3-3's Aren't Given Credit Because Michelle Kwan Didn't Really Do 3-3's" Month?

I think it's more, "The CoP sucks because the new rules hinder Yu-na from skating the kind of amazing program that she is capable of, in contrast with the match made in heaven between 6.0 and Michelle Kwan" month.
 

prettykeys

Medalist
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
That is exactly what she did. She replaced her 2A+3T with 3S+2T and spread her triples out.

This was her only option under the new rules.
Um, replacing a 2A+3T with 3S+2T is replacing a 2-3 with a 3-2. I am talking about splitting up her 3Lz-3T into something like a 3Lz-2T while keeping the 2A+3T and having a solo 3T and 3S in the second half of her LP.

Personally I don't think she should do it because she may lose the timing of her 3(Lz or F)-3T...something she has the integrity to keep. But who cares, right, when I can meditate on and celebrate Michelle Kwan's lack of 3-3's and Miki Ando's glorious 2010-2011 LP.
 

silverlake22

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
Yu-na's team was caught between a rock and a hard place by the new rules.

This is her 2011 jump layout.

3Lz+3T
3S+2T
3F
2A+2T+2Lo
3Lz
3S
2A

Assuming she wants to keep her 2A+2T+2Lo combination, worth 7.15 points with second half bonus, she has a big problem if she replaces her second element with 2A+3T.

3Lz+3T
2A+3T
3F
2A+2T+2Lo
3Lz
3S
???

What is her seventh jumping pass? She is Zayaked out. She cannot repeat a 2A or a 3T. She already has two repeated triples, so she cannot do another F or S. She's done.

Ideal layout with new rules.
If she wants to try the loop.

3lz-3t
3f
2a-2t-2lo
2a-3t x
3lz x
3s x
3lo (if she's feeling strong) or 2lo (if she wants to play it safe) x

Or if she doesn't want to do the loop:

3lz-3t
3f
2a-2t-2lo
2a-3t x
3lz x
3s x
2lz 'tano x

This seems like a smart layout to me. A tano 2lz out of a transition would be easy for Yuna and a nice way to end her program. I guess the only concern would be if she did a 3lz by accident, then it wouldn't count, but I can't really see that happening. And a 2lz is the most valuable double. Does anyone know if the BV for the above program is more or less than what she did at Worlds? If it's worth more/the same then idk why she doesn't do it, as her 2a-3t seems more consistent than a 3s-2t, and a 2lz is nothing for Yuna, and it would have great delay.
 
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Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Um, replacing a 2A+3T with 3S+2T is replacing a 2-3 with a 3-2. I am talking about splitting up her 3Lz-3T into something like a 3Lz-2T while keeping the 2A+3T and having a solo 3T and 3S in the second half of her LP.

With the new half-way Zayak rule for 2A's, I was counting a 2A in with the triples.
Abandon the 3Lz-3T?! Kristi Yamaguchi won the 1992 Olympics with that combination (countering Midori Ito's triple Axel). We count on Yu-na not to let the sport slip backward twenty years!

She should do

3Lz+3T
2A+3T
3F
2A+2T+2Lo
3Lz
3S
Backflip + double Lutz + one of these right in the judges' faces.

But who cares, right, when I can meditate on and celebrate Michelle Kwan's lack of 3-3's and Miki Ando's glorious 2010-2011 LP.

Michelle Kwan would have been greatly pleased if she had been able to add a difficult triple-triple to her repertoire. She lost the 1998 Olympics to Tara Lipinski's 3Lo+3Lo. In preparation for the 2002 Olympics, knowing she would have to face Irina Slutskaya, Michelle tried to learn a 3F+3T. She attempted in at Skate Canada and fell.

In the end, you go with what you've got. What Michelle had was mastery of (as they say :) ) the "full vocabulary of figure skating." You run throgh your 5 trples + double Axel, your camel, sit, layback and upright spins (although Michelle was never an outstanding spinner), then toss in your footwork and moves in the field, and try not to fall down. That accomplished, you try your best to blow away the competition on the second mark if you are able.

When you're finished, you turn to the other ladies and say, "Beat that, chumps!" Sometimes they do, sometime they don't. But win or lose this formula was well suited to Michelle's strengths, it minimized her weaknesses, and it was well-rewarded under the judging system of the time.

As for Miki Ando's gold medal performance -- again, you go with what you've got. The rules say you get more points for jumps in the second half than in the first -- well, duh -- where should I place my jumps?

Personally, I thought Miki's performance was great. :yes:
 

kwanatic

Check out my YT channel, Bare Ice!
Record Breaker
Joined
May 19, 2011
Michelle Kwan would have been greatly pleased if she had been able to add a difficult triple-triple to her repertoire. She lost the 1998 Olympics to Tara Lipinski's 3Lo+3Lo. In preparation for the 2002 Olympics, knowing she would have to face Irina Slutskaya, Michelle tried to learn a 3F+3T. She attempted in at Skate Canada and fell.

In the end, you go with what you've got. What Michelle had was mastery of (as they say :) ) the "full vocabulary of figure skating." You run throgh your 5 trples + double Axel, your camel, sit, layback and upright spins (although Michelle was never an outstanding spinner), then toss in your footwork and moves in the field, and try not to fall down. That accomplished, you try your best to blow away the competition on the second mark if you are able.

When you're finished, you turn to the other ladies and say, "Beat that, chumps!" Sometimes they do, sometime they don't. But win or lose this formula was well suited to Michelle's strengths, it minimized her weaknesses, and it was well-rewarded under the judging system of the time.

As for Miki Ando's gold medal performance -- again, you go with what you've got. The rules say you get more points for jumps in the second half than in the first -- well, duh -- where should I place my jumps?

Personally, I thought Miki's performance was great. :yes:

Hi everyone. This is my first post here (I've lurked here for years, but it's the off-season and I'm bored so, 'lo and behold!, I've joined now!).

I just wanted to say this was a really great post :biggrin:. I don't think disparaging Michelle by pointing to her lack of a consistent 3-3 holds water...different time, different era. It wasn't needed back then during the 6.0 era because the sport was more concerned with the whole package rather than just the jumps or just the pretty...there needed to be a balance of both.

Even though this rule has thrown a wrench in Yu-Na's game plan of three 2As, I think the quality of her other elements will make up for it. I mean look at worlds this year: Miki beat her by less than 2 points...that was Miki at her near-best versus an obviously sub par Yu-Na. I think Yu-Na will be okay--that is assuming she continues to compete. The only difference is she'll win by 10-12pts instead of 15-20pts...:) There's always the option of adding the 3lp back to her arsenal. With her forgoing the GP again (if the rumors are true) she'll have time to work on getting it consistent.

And though I don't particularly enjoy Miki's skating, I was okay with the results.
 

Serious Business

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 7, 2011
3lz-3t
3f
2a-2t-2lo
2a-3t x
3lz x
3s x
2lz 'tano x

This seems like a smart layout to me. A tano 2lz out of a transition would be easy for Yuna and a nice way to end her program. I guess the only concern would be if she did a 3lz by accident, then it wouldn't count, but I can't really see that happening. And a 2lz is the most valuable double. Does anyone know if the BV for the above program is more or less than what she did at Worlds? If it's worth more/the same then idk why she doesn't do it, as her 2a-3t seems more consistent than a 3s-2t, and a 2lz is nothing for Yuna, and it would have great delay.

It would indeed have been higher in base value compared to the jump layout she did use... by .57. And it would have the same scale of values for the GOE, too. However, Yuna probably didn't do it because she didn't want to have to do a planned double lutz at this level of skating. As it is, .57 wouldn't have advanced her placement.

____

I don't have a problem with lowering the value of the double axel (which seemed reasonable because it is a jump that comes easily to the majority of internationally competitive skaters). I do have a problem with the limit on the number of double axels, while continuing to forego giving a commensurate bonus to skaters who complete 3/3s. In fact, while we're on the subject of how Yuna could've squeezed out more points with a different jump layout...

Yuna could've actually gotten a higher TES score by lowering the difficulty of her jump layout. How? By swapping the 3t on the end of her 3lutz combo with the 2t/2r on her 2a combo. Her jump layout would then look like:

3l/2t/2r
3s/2t
3f
2a/3t*
3l*
3s*
2a*

This would spread the highest scale of values (for any jumping passes with a triple in it) around, to net herself some higher GOE. But wait! She could go even further, using silverlake22's suggested layout, but modifying for GOE-baiting:

3l/2t/2r
3f
2a/3t
2l/3t*
3l*
3s*
2a*

With this layout, all but one of her jumping passes can get the maximum GOE of +2.1, whereas her actual jump plan only lets her get the +2.1 SOV on 5 of her passes, and +1.5 SOV for the other two. Sure, it's only a potential difference of .6 or so, but add in the .57 she'd gain by throwing in a double lutz, and she'd almost have enough to have won Worlds. Which only illustrates the absurdity of not rewarding 3/3s separately.
 
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prettykeys

Medalist
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
I think it's more, "The CoP sucks because the new rules hinder Yu-na from skating the kind of amazing program that she is capable of, in contrast with the match made in heaven between 6.0 and Michelle Kwan" month.
Sure, you can spin your posts in that direction. Yet when I consider this post you made a few pages earlier:

But you're right about the new rules punishing only a skater who does a triple-triple and does not have all her jumps. (How can a coach send his skater into senior competition without teaching her all the jumps, spins, steps, turns, etc., anyway?). Saving the "ganging up on Yu-na Kim" theory for another time, perhaps we can think of the rules as warning the skaters, you'd better learn all your jumps first before you start in with the advanced tricks like triple-triples.
It appears that "warning the skaters" means that a) CoP is doing the RIGHT thing in your eyes by b) "warning" specifically YuNa (and "warning" means systematically making rule changes that boosts skaters besides her.) This does not look like an argument for "The CoP sucks because YuNa can't do her best", but rather more like "The CoP rocks because it stops YuNa from winning on the basis of a triple-triple that none of the other top girls consistently do anymore, just like Michelle Kwan didn't - let me pull out some Michelle Kwan stats for the hell of it while I'm at it - which I am fine with".

With the new half-way Zayak rule for 2A's, I was counting a 2A in with the triples.
Abandon the 3Lz-3T?! Kristi Yamaguchi won the 1992 Olympics with that combination (countering Midori Ito's triple Axel). We count on Yu-na not to let the sport slip backward twenty years!
Well I counted on Michelle Kwan to not let the sport slip backwards either, but she didn't do a 3Lz-3T or a 3A either. :sheesh:

Michelle Kwan would have been greatly pleased if she had been able to add a difficult triple-triple to her repertoire. She lost the 1998 Olympics to Tara Lipinski's 3Lo+3Lo. In preparation for the 2002 Olympics, knowing she would have to face Irina Slutskaya, Michelle tried to learn a 3F+3T. She attempted in at Skate Canada and fell.
Yes, exactly. What kind of coach sends his skater out to compete at the Olympics without having a technical layout that would challenge the known layout of Tara Lipinski, one of her threats for Gold? Talk about slacking...

In the end, you go with what you've got.
Apparently this only applies to Michelle Kwan, or Miki Ando. When it's YuNa Kim, she needs a "warning" from the IJS. :unsure:

Personally, I thought Miki's performance was great. :yes:
Personally, I thought it was not, and it reassures me that posters like BoP who have a keen eye and insight for good choreography as well as a strong hold of the rules agrees...and who also happens to be a Michelle Kwan fan.
 
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prettykeys

Medalist
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
I just wanted to say this was a really great post :biggrin:. I don't think disparaging Michelle by pointing to her lack of a consistent 3-3 holds water...different time, different era.
And different set of rules, yea? If you are referring to my posts that appear to be disparaging Michelle for her lack of 3-3's... (and I wonder if you are the same kwanatic at the YNKF? :)) they are a little tongue-in-cheek. Basically I do not care that much that she did not do them frequently, but I am disliking the way that 3-3's are devalued by MANY posters in response to the criticism of the recent rule changes. It does still hold water that Michelle Kwan's predecessors did 3-3's and 3A's. It does still hold water that many of her rivals were doing difficult 3-3's. They are not easy, and furthermore, to do them while skating the rest of the program clean and well appears to make them more costly when the analysis is done as a whole rather than just the riskiness of the element in itself. To further compound my frustration, I am rather appalled that there are MK fans who are defending Ando's LP. That LP is the antithesis of all that is Michelle, someone who was known for brilliant execution of beautiful programs. Again, I have my private suspicions as to why (YuNa-Fan-Paranoia), but it is what it is. I, too, was and is OK with Ando's win even though I would have had it another way if it were up to me. It was close and YuNa was definitely not at her best.

My criticisms of Michelle Kwan in these recent posts are satires based on the kind of craaaaap that is being tossed in YuNa's direction here.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Welcome, Kwanatic. Post often, post long.

There can never be too many Michelle fans on the board, right everyone?

...right? Everyone?]

...she didn't want to have to do a planned double lutz at this level of skating.

That's why she should do it. It would tell the ISU, look, I have blown the top off the CoP. You should change the rules to permit skaters to do more.

Prettykeys said:
It appears that "warning the skaters" means that a) CoP is doing the RIGHT thing in your eyes...

There seems to be a gap in logic between "the ISU is warning the skaters" and "Mathman thinks it is right for the ISU to warn the skaters."

However, on reflection, I guess I do think it is right to value mastery of the full range of skating technique over individual spectacular elements.

Prettykeys said:
What kind of coach sends his skater (Kwan) out to compete at the Olympics without having a technical layout that would challenge the known layout of Tara Lipinski, one of her threats for Gold? Talk about slacking...

As I say, you go with what you got. You got yours, I got mine. Let's get it on. Two great performances. The majority of judges liked Tara's performance better.

Personally, I thought {Ando's program was not great), and it reassures me that posters like BoP who have a keen eye and insight for good choreography as well as a strong hold of the rules agrees.

Not only does Blades of Passion know a lot about the rules, he also has a program for fixing their many flaws. Morozov can read. The rules say you get higher base value if you spend the first two minutes skating aimless about, then do all of your scoring elements in a flurry at the 2:01 mark. What can I say? The ISU gets what it pays for.
 

jatale

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 24, 2011
Where is BoP these days anyway? I miss his comments. I love the sense of humor being expressed here in some posts, very informative and entertaining at the same time! In my feeble understanding of the new CoP rules, it does seem like Yuna is being targeted to some extent and that skaters like Mao are benefiting. The 3A should get points appropriate to its difficulty, but 3-3 jumps should be rewarded appropriately too.
 
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prettykeys

Medalist
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
There seems to be a gap in logic between "the ISU is warning the skaters" and "Mathman thinks it is right for the ISU to warn the skaters."

However, on reflection, I guess I do think it is right to value mastery of the full range of skating technique over individual spectacular elements.
Thankfully language is more than about just logic. Your proposed interpretation of the changes the ISU made recently do sound like they align more with your reflection in saying that the CoP did something right than to say "CoP sucks". And you know? I agree - but they didn't do it completely, and by not doing it completely, they did not do it fairly. THAT is where the YuNa fans are irked. I LIKE that the 2A's were limited. I LIKE that 3A's and 3Lo's and quads were given more value. But 3-3's were not just ignored, they were rejected.

As I say, you go with what you got. You got yours, I got mine. Let's get it on. Two great performances. The majority of judges liked Tara's performance better.
I also liked Tara's more. But no one is to blame that Michelle did not win Gold that night. My "what kind of coach" comment is again, a criticism of the implied criticism that was directed at YuNa and her coaches.

Not only does Blades of Passion know a lot about the rules, he also has a program for fixing their many flaws. Morozov can read. The rules say you get higher base value if you spend the first two minutes skating aimless about, then do all of your scoring elements in a flurry at the 2:01 mark. What can I say? The ISU gets what it pays for.
Yes, they really ought to listen to BoP. And perhaps Lori Nichol can take the LP in question and use it as a teaching point to judges with regards to Choreo and Interpretation.
 
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