"from the boot down and the boot up" | Golden Skate

"from the boot down and the boot up"

janetfan

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May 15, 2009
Reading various comments has sparked my interest in discussing skaters from the "boot down and from the boot up."

Some thoughts on this would be how this has changed from the era of school figures up to today's current CoP.

Where would fans rate Yuna and Mao on these skills? Are they equal?

Joannie appears to be very good from the boot down but I prefer Laura over Joannie from the boot up. Like Joannie, Laura also appears to have good skating skills but both of these girls have been known to be inconsistent jumpers.

Does this "boot down" have much to do with jumping - or is jumping technique not directly related to "boot down" skills? Proper edge takeoffs seem to be a problem for many of today's skaters - even those who are considered to have superior skating skills.

Like many I think I do get "wowed" by flexibilty at times. I have heard Button rave about a certain turn Sasha can do from a spiral position that I still don't see other Ladies doing. Yet I hear Sasha has poor skating skills and is weak from the "boot down." And then she does a turn out of a spiral that seems to require superior edge skill. Or is it just a case of superior flexibilty? Or both?

For me, Sasha and Oksana were two of the lovliest skaters I have seen from the "boot up." Of today's top skaters Laura is one of my favorites from the boot up and probably Miki is my least favorite.

Since this is GS Michelle must be mentioned. ;). She appeared to be very good at both skills and perhaps that is why she won so many titles.

Thinking back to the 60's and up to 2010 who are the skaters that were best at "boot down and boot up" skills. Either separately or more importantly at both.

Although I only mentioned Ladies it would be nice to hear about the men too.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Kurt Browning = strongest ankles of all time. That's why he can move his feet like nobody else.
 

janetfan

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May 15, 2009
Kurt Browning = strongest ankles of all time. That's why he can move his feet like nobody else.

I happen to love alot of Mao's steps and footwork - even in her exhibition programs she shows more skill at times than many of today's competitive programs.

Would you rate her very highly up on "boots down" skills? Maybe the best of today's Ladies?

But what of her edge problems on the lutz? Is it fair to say it is totally unrelated?
 

i love to skate

Medalist
Joined
Dec 13, 2005
Joannie appears to be very good from the boot down but I prefer Laura over Joannie from the boot up. Like Joannie, Laura also appears to have good skating skills but both of these girls have been known to be inconsistent jumpers.

I wouldn't call Joannie an inconsistent jumper. This year she has struggled, absolutely. However, if you look at her performances all the way back to 2003 she is pretty darn solid most of the time - especially in the long program. What was that statistic last year for underrotations? 0/71?

Does this "boot down" have much to do with jumping - or is jumping technique not directly related to "boot down" skills? Proper edge takeoffs seem to be a problem for many of today's skaters - even those who are considered to have superior skating skills.

Ankles absolutely have to do with jumping technique. For example, Sasha has not as strong ankles as the other ladies as she often wobbles the edges on her flutz and flip. She sometimes wobbles in the ankles on her landings as well. Caroline Zhang is another skater who wobbles in the ankles - and we all know her struggles in edge calls and underrotations.

Like many I think I do get "wowed" by flexibilty at times. I have heard Button rave about a certain turn Sasha can do from a spiral position that I still don't see other Ladies doing. Yet I hear Sasha has poor skating skills and is weak from the "boot down." And then she does a turn out of a spiral that seems to require superior edge skill. Or is it just a case of superior flexibilty? Or both?

That turn in a spiral position was a skid, there was no holding of the edge after she finished the skid. Sasha had the highest leg position - but also had a very low back and skated on a flat most of the time. IMO, it's mostly just flexbility.

As for the men, Patrick has exceptional qualities in the boot down as well as the boot up. Kozuka is another one that is superior in both. Jeremy Ten is a great boots down skater too.
 
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janetfan

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May 15, 2009
I wouldn't call Joannie an inconsistent jumper. This year she has struggled, absolutely. However, if you look at her performances all the way back to 2003 she is pretty darn solid most of the time - especially in the long program. What was that statistic last year for underrotations? 0/71?

.

I think Joannie popped more triples this season than Sasha did in her whole career. Counting her two GP events and the GPF Joannie might be in double digits for popped jumps.

That is alot for such a good skater. Maybe Joannie has weak ankles too ;)
 

i love to skate

Medalist
Joined
Dec 13, 2005
I think Joannie popped more triples this season than Sasha did in her whole career. Counting her two GP events and the GPF Joannie might be in double digits for popped jumps.

That is alot for such a good skater. Maybe Joannie has weak ankles too ;)

Six actually I think. Should we start counting falls over their career as well? I'm pretty sure I know who would win in that category :p
 
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janetfan

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May 15, 2009
Six actually I think. Should we start counting falls over their career as well? I'm pretty sure I know who would win in that category :p

I think it was 6 at the GPF :p

I hope she can show her best in Vancouver but I wonder how the pressure will effect her. It might take more than strong ankles to win a medal in Vancouver especially if the judging is halfway honest and fair. Unless Joannie is gifted by the magic of CoP scoring like she was at SC I'd say she will be hard pressed to make the podium.

If you insist we can compare Joannie's record with Sasha's at Worlds and the Olympics - but Joannie won't win that comparison either.
 

janetfan

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May 15, 2009
Laetitia Hubert? ;)

Most likely someone we've never heard of.

What about Caro? She has been known to pop a few jumps?

And Laura went pop for pop all season long with Joannie. Not sure who won that battle.

This list is filling up with skaters that are known for their skating skills.
Why are skaters with such strong skating skills popping so many jumps this season? Maybe the ankle strength comments are wrong or don't apply when things like confidence are brought into the mix.
 

janetfan

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May 15, 2009
I'm not sure what popping jumps has to do with ankle strength.

There could be differeing reasons.......

My question was about skaters known for superior skating skills popping so many jumps.

How come?
 

museksk8r

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Oct 31, 2006
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United-States
Why are skaters with such strong skating skills popping so many jumps this season? Maybe the ankle strength comments are wrong or don't apply when things like confidence are brought into the mix.

You have to have much more than great skating skills to consistently land jumps. The timing is the main factor involved I believe. If you rush a jump takeoff, the jump is not going to happen. Skaters have to take care that they don't rush the takeoffs of their jumps, but when they are ready to jump, they have to explode into the air and be aggressive with a quick, tight snap and a straight air position. Then, there can even be the problem of waiting too long and being too tentative to go into a jump. The timing can be quite a balancing act, even for the most skilled and experienced skaters. If your rotation in the air is not tight and quick enough, then the jump won't happen the way you want it to. It's all about finding one's rhythm, and every skater's rhythm can be different from one another, and this has to be balanced and achieved with the rhythm of the music, all the while on a quarter of an inch blade on slippery ice in front of millions of people. It certainly makes one wonder how ANYBODY can ever claim figure skating is not a sport or is not difficult. Also, skaters have to carefully maintain a certain weight that works for them too. Even what seems like the slightest gain in weight can really throw off their timing on jumps. These factors have nothing to do with actual skating skills. Skating is such a mental sport and the skaters have to have the mentality of a competitor at all times and not hold back. The timing, attack, and confidence all have to be there along with the excellent skating skills to achieve the success desired.
 
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inside edge

On the Ice
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Nov 26, 2009
You have to have much more than great skating skills to consistently land jumps. The timing is the main factor involved I believe. If you rush a jump takeoff, the jump is not going to happen. Skaters have to take care that they don't rush the takeoffs of their jumps, but when they are ready to jump, they have to explode into the air and be aggressive with a quick, tight snap in the air. Then, there can even be the problem of waiting too long and being too tentative to go into a jump. The timing can be quite a balancing act, even for the most skilled and experienced skaters. If your rotation in the air is not tight and quick enough, then the jump won't happen the way you want it to. It's all about finding one's rhythm, and every skater's rhythm can be different from one another, and this has to be balanced and achieved with the rhythm of the music, all the while on a quarter of an inch blade on slippery ice in front of millions of people. It certainly makes one wonder how ANYBODY can ever claim figure skating is not a sport or is not difficult. These factors have nothing to do with actual skating skills. Skating is such a mental sport and the skaters have to have the mentality of a competitor at all times and not hold back. The timing, attack, and confidence all have to be there along with the excellent skating skills to achieve the success desired.

:clap::clap:
 

i love to skate

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Joined
Dec 13, 2005
I think it was 6 at the GPF :p

I hope she can show her best in Vancouver but I wonder how the pressure will effect her. It might take more than strong ankles to win a medal in Vancouver especially if the judging is halfway honest and fair. Unless Joannie is gifted by the magic of CoP scoring like she was at SC I'd say she will be hard pressed to make the podium.

If you insist we can compare Joannie's record with Sasha's at Worlds and the Olympics - but Joannie won't win that comparison either.

I see how you ignored the comparison about falls :p BTW, I know Sasha has a better competitive record than Joannie....I'm pretty sure everyone knows that. As for why skaters pop jumps, it has little to do with their ankles - it's timing, a missed take-off, not feeling comfortable in the air due to leaning, or else nerves or not having confidence in the jump.
 

Kwanford Wife

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Joined
Dec 29, 2004
IMO, I believe that Michelle and Irina benefitted from coming up in the era when figures were trained. They were taught that painfully slow and patient artform of being alone on the ice tracing patterns. What affect this has on their ankles, I'm not sure but both always were excellent "boot down" skaters - which was always very evident in their spirals.

Now, Michelle's spirals were lovely, espcially her COE spiral - an iconic move. Irinia, while lacking Kwan's extention, also have a beautiful spiral. Irinia's edges on spirals were sick.

Sasha is a beautiful skater from the "boot up" because her positions were out of control, but her edges were flat. Now, I've always attributed this to her being part of the baby ballerinas who were all about their flexibility and the illusion to dance upon the ice. Sasha also came from what I consider to be the first generation of skaters who spent less time on figures, therefore technique, and more on jumps.

As I watch this new crop of skaters, espcially those from Japan, I cannot but help to think that most would benefit from some figures training. Not as a competition, but just for the skill building. Kinda like professional development.

Now, as a country, Canada always produces talent with excellent skating skills. As a skater, Joanine needs to focus on landing her triple jumps and being more consistant - consistant meaning - strong jumps, strong elements, strong spins and strong focus for the entire seven odd minutes she competes; stop giving it away. That's the only way for her to win from the top of the boot, to the bottom.
 

gkelly

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Jul 26, 2003
Now, Michelle's spirals were lovely, espcially her COE spiral - an iconic move. Irinia, while lacking Kwan's extention, also have a beautiful spiral. Irinia's edges on spirals were sick.

Sasha is a beautiful skater from the "boot up" because her positions were out of control,

I take it that "sick" and "out of control" are supposed to be high praise in these sentences?

As I watch this new crop of skaters, espcially those from Japan, I cannot but help to think that most would benefit from some figures training. Not as a competition, but just for the skill building. Kinda like professional development.

I don't especially associate excellence in figures with Japanese skaters except for Yuka Sato as a junior.

But with a few exceptions I do associate Japanese skaters with strong edges and effortless flow across the ice in their freeskating. Among the current skaters, especially Mao Asada, and Takahashi, Oda, and Kozuka on the men's side.

I don't know what kinds of training techniques their coaches have used to develop that quality. I'm sure it contributes to their success, apart from the jumps.

Now, as a country, Canada always produces talent with excellent skating skills.

I believe Canada was the last country to require figure tests for their skaters after they were dropped from competition.

And there does seem to be a culture of insisting on strong basics (at times at the expense of jumps for the ladies).
 

janetfan

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May 15, 2009
I see how you ignored the comparison about falls :p BTW, I know Sasha has a better competitive record than Joannie....I'm pretty sure everyone knows that. As for why skaters pop jumps, it has little to do with their ankles - it's timing, a missed take-off, not feeling comfortable in the air due to leaning, or else nerves or not having confidence in the jump.

I never seriously considered going back and counting falls. :)
What I would say is that Joannie could use some of Sasha's agressiveness from time to time.

I think part of what I enjoy about Sasha has to do with her attitude on the ice - what a performer she is.

I think it might help skaters like Alissa and Joannie to be less cautious at times. I don't mind Sasha going for a quad and falling, or going for a 3x3 at SLC and falling on the second triple. Watch how she bounced right back up and continued skating like nothing bad happened.

Whatever you want to call "it" ....... Sasha has alot of "it."
I wish Alissa and Joannie had more of "it" and knew how to attack programs the way Sasha does.

I wish they both skated with more attitude.
I happen to like Joannie - I like both of her programs this year and think she can be special at times just like Alissa can.

But neither girl seems to know how to get past a mistake without letting it bring down the rest of their program.

All this talk about "boot down" means little to skaters who miss a jump and then can't maintain a high performance level for the rest of the program.
 

Kwanford Wife

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Dec 29, 2004
I take it that "sick" and "out of control" are supposed to be high praise in these sentences?



I don't especially associate excellence in figures with Japanese skaters except for Yuka Sato as a junior.

But with a few exceptions I do associate Japanese skaters with strong edges and effortless flow across the ice in their freeskating. Among the current skaters, especially Mao Asada, and Takahashi, Oda, and Kozuka on the men's side.

I don't know what kinds of training techniques their coaches have used to develop that quality. I'm sure it contributes to their success, apart from the jumps.



I believe Canada was the last country to require figure tests for their skaters after they were dropped from competition.

And there does seem to be a culture of insisting on strong basics (at times at the expense of jumps for the ladies).

Absolutely on all your points, espcially about the Japanese skaters, Mao espcially. Sometimes its easy to forget just how lovely her basic skating is with all the focus on the 3A...

Also, I've been hanging out with my 12 year old son and his snowboarding pals and have thus added SICK and Out of Control to my vocabulary... not that I've ever been adverse to slang in my posting history...:laugh::laugh:
 
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