High cost for skaters going to competitions

There is an interesting discussion over at FSU on high cost for skaters going to the Nationals. I would like to extend it here (don’t like their private sections over there ) to the high cost of going to skating competitions in general. In poker tournaments, you pay an entry fee, you spend a week in a hotel competing, and you don’t bring your coach even through he could help analyzing your opponents before the games. I was shocked when I learnt that skating coaches need to accompany a skater to competitions. Why a coach needs to go with a skater? Why a coach needs to put the skater on ice (how old are the skaters?), watch the skater during her warm-up and competition by the rink side, and sit by the skater at kiss and cry after the program? The skater should have practiced her program hundreds of times before the competition, what additional help the coach could provide here? Would that help warrant the additional cost? Does anyone know when a coach couldn’t go due to scheduling conflict it had affected a skater’s performance? I bet none! How much less would it cost going to a competition without a coach? Maybe a lot! The skating world needs to think outside of the box and does away with having coaches accompany skaters to competitions, unless the coach pays his own way (he may learn something and improve somehow at a competition) or the skater asks the coach to come and help. This is only fair to the skaters and their families.

To reduce the “need” of having private coaches coming to competitions with the skaters, the structure of the competitions needs to change a little but is easy to implement. For example, all club competitions and even Regionals can be organized as club or team tournaments. Only a couple of club coaches are needed to take the team to the competition. In addition to individual scores as the current system, we could have total scores for the teams (total of 4 or n# of top individual scores or level scores), scores for each competition levels for each team, and award medals, trophies, and cash prizes to each category accordingly. This team and club competitions might lead to more exciting National FS Team Competitions (March Madness?) or even professional teams and clubs in the future. It would help the growth of the sport, drawing more fans and gaining heftier TV contracts. If a FS league could eventually become reality, it would change the outlook of professional skaters. Their livelihood would not rely on shows and tours only. Hey, even judges could benefit from it, they could work as paid judges in a union similar to the referees in other sporting leagues.

This may be far fetching. Just food for thoughts….

You raise a lot of issues. I'll try to address some of them.

Poker said:

I was shocked when I learnt that skating coaches need to accompany a skater to competitions. Why a coach needs to go with a skater? Why a coach needs to put the skater on ice (how old are the skaters?),

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At Nationals, every so often theres a 9- or 10-year-old, most likely girls at the novice level. 11 or 12 is less rare (and not unknown in seniors!); 13 is not uncommon, even for novice men. The oldest senior competitors at Nationals might be in their 30s.

The majority of novices and juniors (all disciplines), and senior ladies are teenagers.

Even the youngest novices are pretty experienced competitors by the time they get to Nationals, but this would be the most important event of their career so far. The setup and atmosphere at Nationals may be very different from anything they'd previously experienced at club competitions and qualifying competitions, which are usually held in local ice rinks.

At a club competition, you might get 5- or 6-year-olds entered in a "tots" or no-test category, and sometimes younger than that in a Basic Skills competition.

The skater should have practiced her program hundreds of times before the competition, what additional help the coach could provide here? Would that help warrant the additional cost?

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Giving technical advice on any elements the skater might have trouble with during the competition practices and warmups. Helping the skater get focused and calming nerves -- reminding them of keywords to think of during their programs. Guiding them through what to expect all week, especially if the coach is a veteran and the skater is new to Nationals. Holding the skater's water bottle, blade guards, gloves, jacket/sweater, etc., while s/he's skating.

Many skaters also believe that judges notice which coach puts them on the ice and tend to favor skaters with well-known coaches. I don't know how true that really is; coaches who teach good technique will be successful, become well-known, and then continue to succeed with future students.

Does anyone know when a coach couldn’t go due to scheduling conflict it had affected a skater’s performance? I bet none!

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You'd have to ask the skaters. Some would probably be more affected by a change in routine than others. I'm sure the answer isn't "none."

If one coach can't make it to an event, it's pretty common for another coach from the same rink to put that coach's skaters on the ice. It may be someone the skater already takes some lessons from as a secondary coach.

At club competitions, it's often possible for parents or older siblings to do that, but at US qualifying competitions (regionals, sectionals, nationals) only credentialed coaches are allowed in the area by the skaters' entrance.

Poker said:

To reduce the “need” of having private coaches coming to competitions with the skaters, the structure of the competitions needs to change a little but is easy to implement. For example, all club competitions and even Regionals can be organized as club or team tournaments. Only a couple of club coaches are needed to take the team to the competition.

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That already happens on an ad hoc basis. But requiring it would put a skater who's the only one from a small club competing at that level at a disadvantage. It would also rule out options such as entering a club competition while on a family vacation visiting relatives in a distant state, with a family member instead of a coach putting the skater on the ice.

In addition to individual scores as the current system, we could have total scores for the teams (total of 4 or n# of top individual scores or level scores), scores for each competition levels for each team, and award medals, trophies, and cash prizes to each category accordingly.

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Again, this does happen in some instances. There are high school and collegiate competition leagues in which skaters represent and earn points for their schools. I know of at least one club competition that awards a trophy to the club with the best medal placements. Schools or clubs with many strong skaters do have an advantage in those situations, and skaters from smaller programs would have no shot at the team awards even if they win their individual events.

[Internationally, I believe that Nation's Cup and the "Coupe des Alpes" (Nebelhorn+St. Gervais) used to use a similar system for countries instead of clubs.]

If a FS league could eventually become reality, it would change the outlook of professional skaters. Their livelihood would not rely on shows and tours only. Hey, even judges could benefit from it, they could work as paid judges in a union similar to the referees in other sporting leagues.

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There have been some efforts to start up something similar, but they never really took off.

It would be great if the top stars would participate and get TV networks and sponsors to sign on. But that still wouldn't do much to cut the costs for the thousands of competitive skaters who are not yet at the senior international level and may never reach it.

Poker said:

There is an interesting discussion over at FSU on high cost for skaters going to the Nationals. I would like to extend it here (don’t like their private sections over there ) to the high cost of going to skating competitions in general. In poker tournaments, you pay an entry fee, you spend a week in a hotel competing, and you don’t bring your coach even through he could help analyzing your opponents before the games. I was shocked when I learnt that skating coaches need to accompany a skater to competitions. Why a coach needs to go with a skater? Why a coach needs to put the skater on ice (how old are the skaters?), watch the skater during her warm-up and competition by the rink side, and sit by the skater at kiss and cry after the program? The skater should have practiced her program hundreds of times before the competition, what additional help the coach could provide here? Would that help warrant the additional cost? Does anyone know when a coach couldn’t go due to scheduling conflict it had affected a skater’s performance? I bet none! How much less would it cost going to a competition without a coach? Maybe a lot! The skating world needs to think outside of the box and does away with having coaches accompany skaters to competitions, unless the coach pays his own way (he may learn something and improve somehow at a competition) or the skater asks the coach to come and help. This is only fair to the skaters and their families.

To reduce the “need” of having private coaches coming to competitions with the skaters, the structure of the competitions needs to change a little but is easy to implement. For example, all club competitions and even Regionals can be organized as club or team tournaments. Only a couple of club coaches are needed to take the team to the competition. In addition to individual scores as the current system, we could have total scores for the teams (total of 4 or n# of top individual scores or level scores), scores for each competition levels for each team, and award medals, trophies, and cash prizes to each category accordingly. This team and club competitions might lead to more exciting National FS Team Competitions (March Madness?) or even professional teams and clubs in the future. It would help the growth of the sport, drawing more fans and gaining heftier TV contracts. If a FS league could eventually become reality, it would change the outlook of professional skaters. Their livelihood would not rely on shows and tours only. Hey, even judges could benefit from it, they could work as paid judges in a union similar to the referees in other sporting leagues.

This may be far fetching. Just food for thoughts….

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Coaches provide vital support to an athlete at an event. A quick reminder to not drop your shoulder at takeoff, when to start warming up which jump to include exclude etc. While they aren't as visible at in other sports the coaches are usually there helping the althletes they have trained. At many of the higher level training centers the coaches work as a team and typically a couple of coaches go with a group of skaters to competitions rather than all the coaches going.

Michelle Kwan attempted going to competitions without a coach one year and it was a disaster. She had problems with certain elements and was unable to correct them herself. If it can happen at the highest levels imagine what it would be like for a less seasoned competitor.

Yes it would save us skating parents some money but I think the cost is outweighed by the advantages having the coach there brings..

I don't know much of figure skating, but I am still not sure of the help that a coach can provide at a competition, especially when the cost for the coach is 75% of the total cost of attending the competition ($3870/$5140), according to crzesk8dad at the FSU forum. If the coach had a magic wand to use in the few minutes right before the competition, he would have used it before coming to the competition. If skaters are looking to cut costs at competitions, this obviously is the place to look at. Letting a few coaches taking the club team to competitions sounds like a reasonable solution, particularly for skaters attending lower level competitions. All you need is adding and printing out team scores, and large clubs could have several teams. After all you still have individual placements.

Poker said:

I don't know much of figure skating, but I am still not sure of the help that a coach can provide at a competition,

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Why don't you try it yourself?

Take a few months of learn-to-skate classes. Then enter two Basic Skills competitions. Bring a coach to one and go to the other by yourself or bring a friend or family member to provide pep talks and hold your things while you're on the ice.

Report back at which event you were more comfortable in general and more satisfied with your performance.

Letting a few coaches taking the club team to competitions sounds like a reasonable solution, particularly for skaters attending lower level competitions. All you need is adding and printing out team scores, and large clubs could have several teams. After all you still have individual placements.

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These are two totally different issues. The existence of team scoring at nonqual competitions has absolutely no bearing on whether skaters from the same club bring one coach or several coaches to the event.

Clubs can and do consolidate coaching resources so that one coach takes several skaters to the same event, including skaters s/he doesn't usually teach full-time at home. That already happens at all kinds of competitions, including competitions that do and those that do not offer team scoring.

Skaters who represent the same club or school can go to competitions that use team placement scoring regardless of coaching arrangements.

Offering those options still doesn't do anything for a skater who is the only one from her club who wants to or is qualified to attend a given event.

Skaters can choose which and how many club competitions to enter to fit their own budgets and they're free to work out arrangements with their coaches and rinkmates to minimize the costs for each family. There are already lots of options for how seriously to participate in skating at lower levels and how much money to spend.

It's the qualifying competitions that are not optional for skaters who are serious about moving up the competition ladder. Those are not team events.
Those are the competitions that don't allow family members or friends without coaching credentials in the skaters' area. They're also the events where good performances can open doors to more opportunities, including opportunities for funding. So for the serious competitors with potential for good results, there's every incentive to try to maximize performance at these events.

BTW, although I think changing the format of club competitions would have zero effect on the cost of qualifying competitions, I can think of two changes that could have a significant effect on the cost of skating competitively:

1) Change the culture of day-to-day instruction at the local rinks so that coaches cooperate in teaching skaters in groups. Offering group classes for advanced skaters in jumps, spins, power stroking, edges, "artistry," etc. is pretty common in summer programs. Why not offer them all year long? Other changes in structure of practices and lessons would also be possible, so that skaters could spend less money for the same amount of instruction each week, or the same amount of money for more instruction, than is currently the case.

That would probably result in skaters working with more different coaches at home and having more of a team-building experience with their rinkmates, so it would be easier for a group of skaters from the same rink to pool coaching at a distant competition.

2) Change the culture of competition so that it is acceptable for skaters to compete in simple off-the-rack athletic garb such as what many currently wear for practice, instead of elaborate custom-made costumes being expected.

Poker said:

I don't know much of figure skating, but I am still not sure of the help that a coach can provide at a competition, especially when the cost for the coach is 75% of the total cost of attending the competition ($3870/$5140), according to crzesk8dad at the FSU forum. If the coach had a magic wand to use in the few minutes right before the competition, he would have used it before coming to the competition. If skaters are looking to cut costs at competitions, this obviously is the place to look at. Letting a few coaches taking the club team to competitions sounds like a reasonable solution, particularly for skaters attending lower level competitions. All you need is adding and printing out team scores, and large clubs could have several teams. After all you still have individual placements.

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It's hard to make a comparison with the numbers quoted here without knowing what level the skater was skating at but as a point of comparison we were are Skate Canada Eastern Challenge in December and our total coaching bill for the event was under $500 Cdn. There are a lot of factors involved and I could see that price tag if the event require air travel and a week of the coaches time with that being the only skater that the coach took to the event. It is more typical for a high level coach to have a number of skaters at the event and split the cost amoung the skaters.

In the twelve years I have been supporting my child in skating I have only spent that much for a trip for all of us to Nationals. I would suggest that if this parent is paying this much then the event better be an Nationals, a National qualifyer or International event. Otherwise I would suggest a they may be being overchanged.

With the new US Figure Skating rules, non-credentialed coaches can no longer put a skater on the ice. This means no skate-mom, skate-dad or big sister putting a skater on the ice (unless one is credentialed as a coach or competitor at the event). This means qualifying and non-qualifying events. We had issues with unhappy skate-parents and locker room situations at Regionals, non-credentialed coaches trying to slip past security to the locker rooms, and some explaining of the new procedures and rules. The nice thing about it is that you no longer have the entire family in a locker room with the skater (it's kind of difficult as an adult to try and change in the locker room when dad's in there tying/untying skates and they try and keep you from changing in the bathrooms) and parents yelling at the kids for missing things in programs, trying to calm the kid down (while making ME nervous with their incessant chatting...) and so on.

I prefer to have one of my two coaches put me on the ice versus another coach from my club/group of friends' coaches because they understand what I need better than that other coach does and what I need to warm up versus what I shouldn't warm up. How to correct something that's not going well on the warm up/practice. They know when to be supportive and when to give me kick in the pants/valuum. For Adult Nationals, my normal share of coach's expenses is $200 which includes practice ice and competition, hotel, travel, and food.

Yes mskater93, in Canada we have not allowed parents and other non credentialed people in the change rooms or at ice for some time. There was much outcry initially but comps run much better when we parents stay out of the way. Some of the low level events still allow this but the trend seems to be to eliminate it more and more. It is the coaches job to prepare the athlete for competiton not the parents.

And as an FYI, it's not uncommon to be notified by the technical panel that an element has to be changed within the program during a nationals practice. After spending all that money just to get there (and yes, international and team assignments can be decided here), you definitely want a coach on hand to take care of the bumps in the road. Be it a last minute program change, questioning a call, filing a complaint, etc. Expenses can usually be trimmed elsewhere if necessary and the total cost of a coach at Nationals is going to be very variable, so it's even hard to come up with an average.

I did want to add that sometimes it does almost work out like a club event. Coaches like Tom Z. and Igor S. are usually there with at least 3 or 4 competitors from their club. Some of the travel costs associated with those coaches now get divided by more people, so the expense is lower. It's tougher when a coach only has one student that qualifies for the event, but I think there are very few skaters who would go to Nationals without a coach on hand. With the media, crowds and everything else going on, it can be a little hard to navigate and this isn't the place you want to make any mistakes .

I am not a skater parent, but I can tell you that my 12 year old plays on an elite soccer team and he refuses to train or do skills testing without his personal coach - a different coach than his team coach. In his words: "Greg is feelin' me. These other cats don't know what to do." Now, my son is a pampered pooch and I am the first person to admit that - but its one of the concessions parents make when they commit to this level of training.

We've spent close to $1,000 before on travel, lodging, and registration fees for tournaments and I don't even want to get into camp expenses.... because I might just cry.

But here's the thing: parents know the score when they start writing those checks. The Monster Child could play for his school and would have a ball but his parents are the suckers who bought into the hype of feeding "my dream to play in Europe when I graduate from college after winning the NCAA tournament" and that's the grim reality. We choose to be supportive and write the checks (or raise the money via fundraisers and sponsors)

And no diss to poker tournament players - but these are adults who should be good at taking care of themselves. Sports is very different and it requires a different level of commitment. Most pro athletes have private coaches and for those in invidiual sports, almost always travel with their coach.

It could be worse: there could be sports academies where we turn our kids over to "the system" at eight and spend coahces money on shoes...or would that be better?!?

gkelly said:

Why don't you try it yourself?

Take a few months of learn-to-skate classes. Then enter two Basic Skills competitions. Bring a coach to one and go to the other by yourself or bring a friend or family member to provide pep talks and hold your things while you're on the ice.

Report back at which event you were more comfortable in general and more satisfied with your performance.

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Ha, ha… Kelly, maybe I should sign up learn-to-skate with you. I used to compete in high jump and I’ll probably land on my back if I skate. But n=1 has little or no meaning, be it me or Michelle Kwang, we couldn’t draw any conclusion from it. Maybe we could try to design a study that is randomized, controlled, and with proper size to compare the results of the same skaters competing with and without the presence of their coaches. The two competitions should be within a few days of each other. In each competition, half of the skaters have coaches and the other half does not, and they are randomly assigned. Skaters of different age, gender, and skill level should be recruited. Both competitions should feature a large prize fund and a combined score is needed to qualify for a prize (yes, need a grant for this study) to encourage the skaters to do their best in both competitions and discourage some coaches from instructing their skaters to be conservative in one of the competitions. The same judges would work both competitions and measures (such as sitting the judges after warm up and all skaters have a decoy coach behind a screen during their programs, and so on) in place so that the judges do not know which skater is with his/her coach to avoid potential bias to either group of skaters. This study might be doable (IRB approval is needed). The problem is the funding. It may be an interesting and novel study, but it has to have significant impact to get scored, discussed, and funded. We would need a preliminary study to show that reducing the cost of participation could double or triple the number of kids taking private lessons and going to competitions. For example, we could hand out two sign up sheets, one states that it is mandated to have the coach accompanying the student to all the competitions and another states that it is the student’s option to have the coach coming along or not. The difference in costs should be mentioned of course; and see if there is a difference in the number of students signing up in these two groups. Even with this preliminary data, I doubt that the reviewers would see it enough impact to fund this study. Sad… Oh wait; can we have a poll on this one (thanks, but no coach voting please.)?


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Yes, I believe that coaches and private lessons are indispensable in figure skating! Just because after reading the discussions on the high cost of going to the Nationals on the FSU board made me thinking and getting all these crazy ideas - having only a couple of coaches taking all the skaters of the same club to a competition insted of taking each and every pivate coah and making this a fun team effort. Tammi raised some facts I have never known and sound true. I do not mean to offend any coach, especially my banter gkelly (your 7:50 am suggestions are superb!). If I did, I apologize. OK, let’s go and play bridge….

I know that I may be the minority, but I actually prefer not having my coach at events. The one competition my coach was not there I had the skate of my life, yeah maybe from other factors, but I feel more pressure when my coach is there. I know he'll give me a lecture if I make a silly mistake and of course, when I keep thinking about that I make a silly mistake.

Poker said:

Tammi raised some facts I have never known and sound true.

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You could definitely find skaters who have no problem with putting themselves on the ice. For the most part though, the coach is there to take care of the little things, so the skater only has to concentrate on what they need to do on the ice. A few other examples usually found at smaller competitions, include checking in with registration to see if the event is running on time (schedules the skaters warmup appropriately). Once the event starts, keeps track of where his/her skater is on the skate order list (skater stays warm in the locker room, maybe even removing their skates if they have a long wait). I've seen plenty of music problems and instead of the skater having to jump off the ice, grab skate guards and get another CD from their skate bag, the coach takes care of it. At many events, critiques are given by the technical team and the changes/suggestions they make can mean the difference of 3 or 4 points, in a sport where medals are won by tenths and hundreths of a point.

Because skating is so individual and specialized, you aren't usually going to find a free style coach who is also knowledgeable and completely up to date with all the rules of ice dancing for example. In those situations, it would be pretty difficult to have a single "club" coach and the clubs who are sending multiple skaters, usually include freestyle, pairs and dance teams.

gkelly said:

1) Change the culture of day-to-day instruction at the local rinks so that coaches cooperate in teaching skaters in groups. Offering group classes for advanced skaters in jumps, spins, power stroking, edges, "artistry," etc. is pretty common in summer programs. Why not offer them all year long? Other changes in structure of practices and lessons would also be possible, so that skaters could spend less money for the same amount of instruction each week, or the same amount of money for more instruction, than is currently the case.

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Funny you should mention that because I was listening to the Manely Woman skatecast this morning and her guest, Richard Dalley said pretty much the exact same thing when he was asked how the sport will adapt to the tough economy. He said that is how he sees the sport going.
I personally like the idea, as summer camps are so much fun for the skaters...we get to build bonds with the other skaters and coaches and get inspired from them instead of just being me me me all the time.

I've learnt a lot from all your posts, particularly from gkelly’s educational “50-page” long PM. I understand now that figure skating is not going to cost every skater the same; not every competition will cost the skaters the same; there are many ways to cut costs and they are being practiced; many coaches are also sacrificing to help their skaters; and there are many cases where the skaters don’t even consider cutting corners at all and they need all that could help them advance. Good luck and best wishes to all the skaters, you are in an expensive and highly competitive sports!

Tinymavy15 said:

I personally like the idea, as summer camps are so much fun for the skaters...we get to build bonds with the other skaters and coaches and get inspired from them instead of just being me me me all the time.

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Ah, I remember the days of summer camps :yes: . There are definitely skaters, coaches and rinks that would benefit from this type of training all the time. It works well at the basic skills level and even up through pre-pre and prelim. In terms of group coaching on the ice, I don't think that's anything you'd see with advanced competitive skaters, although I do know that some take power/edge, stroking and off ice work as a group. Individual attention is really necessary for the higher level skaters to excel though. It's a little more apparent when you look at some of the reported coaching changes made by skaters earlier this season. Some of them left coaches who appeared to have a high number of students, and went to coaches who may have more time to spend with them.

It's an interesting discussion though and if skaters look around, they can find the setup that matches them the best.

Poker said:

Why a coach needs to put the skater on ice (how old are the skaters?),

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BTW, in case you're still interested in this question, Sylvia has posted links to lists of ages for the novice and junior pairs and singles skaters at US Nationals this year:
http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30164