Do men need the quad at this Olympics? | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Do men need the quad at this Olympics?

Bennett

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 20, 2007
this is how i see it; the only person who utilizes a quad is Plushenko;
Lambiel cancels his out by not having a triple axel;
Verner cancels his out by double is last three jumps;
Joubert cancels his out by making 3 or 4 minor mistakes or by backing off the rest of his program;
Voronov sometimes forget there is music playing so his Pcs cancel out his quad.

So only plushenko is ahead; everyone else is equal;
I say if plushenko makes one major mistake it could be;
Oda(finally dont zayak; did do a quad triple at worlds) ; Plushenko, Jeremy Abbot (with quad) on the podium or Evan lysacek without quad or Daisuke without quad

I agree with your point, except for the fact I do not know anything about updates of Plushy since 4 yrs ago:p

I feel that Dai would be better off without a quad this season. His quad reports do not sound good and he himself seems to be worried about it (see another thread on Dai and Nobu showing their practices). More importantly and essentially, he needs to skate a clean FS first. He is assured among the best PCS so that he can do the Jeff Buttle to be the Gold Medalist or at least Silver or Bronze. I would never imagine that everyone would be clean anyway in a big event like Oly.

Oda also said in one of the interviews that he would not be worried about the placement but want to land his quad. But I feel that Morosov may say "No". Although he may land it in practices, it still may be a risky jump for him. He has not been too strong under pressures. I would like him to play safe and get on the podium esp. because he has barely medaled in big comps.

Jeremy's PCS may be indeed boosted by a quad. His PCS is relatively underwhelming. I feel that he may be a bit slow? I don't know why but his skating gives an impression as if it were kind of small, even though I do not know for sure as I've never seen him skate in person. But I personally attribute his PCS to these factors, even though everything he does is beautiful and detailed. Yet, if he does land a very difficult jump, it could be a wow factor. JMO.

Evan can totally be on the podium without a quad because of the big PCS this season.
 
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antmanb

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
I must point out that a. under CoP you don't need to be a great spinner, just to check off the features for a level 4 :eek:hwell:. b. Also, Brian Joubert has a great camel spin (and the others aren't that awful).

I was trying to be fair to all the skaters :p

But fans of Plush slam Joubert for the things fans of Joubert slam Plush for...fans of one justify the PCS of one while knocking the PCS of the other! So i was trying to be fair to both.

As to spins, right now (well based on the last youtubes i watched of both the programmes) I think joubert is the better spinner between the two in terms of quality, speed, centering etc. I think they both have great camel positions, but where Joubert has faltered in the past at the big events is actually checking off those level four enhancements, sometimes ending up with level 2 spins. Plush does meticulously tick them off, even if the earth's rotation is the only reason he actually goes round!

Ant
 

silverlake22

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
Anyone wonder if Verner finally is clean at the Olympics the judges might get excited and give him huge scores like they do with Carolina when she doesn't mess up badly? I've wondered about this.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
Anyone wonder if Verner finally is clean at the Olympics the judges might get excited and give him huge scores like they do with Carolina when she doesn't mess up badly? I've wondered about this.

Wouldn't it be nice to see Tomas skate two clean programs at the Euro championship!

But what a dilema for the judges. Would they be fair to Tomas or simply decide his "reputation" is not a good as Plush, Joubert and Lambiel?

I suspect that reputation and the way it determines a skaters marks will hold Tomas back even if he skated the best at the Euro championship or Olympics.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Plushenko will land one quad and one in combo- maybe another different one also. The judges will high score his spins and footwork close to others or even over others who will be more inovative. Mark me.

Joubert - another popular skater with judges has an up hill battle for gold, but should breeze onto the podium. The quad and quad combo is almost a given.

Lambiel - much depends on his never ending injuries, and his 3A. He has often landed the quad and quad combo.

If Lambiel falters, the bronze is open for challengers. Take your pick of the "iffy" quad line up. Evan, Jeremy, Dai, Patrick, Tomas, Sergei

If all of the "iffy" falter then the "musical" quadless entertainers could be considered. Oda, Weir, Amodio, Brezina.

To answer the original question. YES the top skaters will need a Quad. It is expected. This is not a GP.

The above, of course is JMO. However, if all skate their best, what a fabulous Olympic competition it will be.
 
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Tinymavy15

Sinnerman for the win
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 28, 2006
To answer the original question, I think the upcoming Olympics (mens) is unique in that there's a very good chance to win OGM without the quad (given that the rest of the content is top notch).

I think, Evan Lysacek is the only guy who realizes that and will be smart enough to go the quadless route. IMHO.

Maybe. But by the article it sounds like Evan won't even be trying the quad at nationals. This worries me. If he won't try it there that means he will go into the olympics without even trying one all season. All these years he and Frank were adimant about trying it in both programs, with the goal of being confident with it by now. Now it seems like all those years of sacrafice were for nothing. If plushy does a quad in both programs and doesn't make any huge mistakes he will win. Evan could win nicely if he tried and landed thr quad in at least one program. This worries me.
 

Bennett

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 20, 2007
Anyone wonder if Verner finally is clean at the Olympics the judges might get excited and give him huge scores like they do with Carolina when she doesn't mess up badly? I've wondered about this.

I've been a long-term fan of Tomas's skating and absolutely believe that he has everything that makes him a great champion (but the mental strength). But sorry I really cannot see this happening (I mean the first part of your story).:p Yet, if it does, yes, judges may be happy to give him credit because everything about his skills is simply fantastic. The only concern may be his underwhelming showings at the GP events this season. He was sick, right? His LP tended to be dull and boring, even though he could have the most passionate, entertaining presentation in the field when he does.
 

schiele

Final Flight
Joined
Oct 13, 2009
this is how i see it; the only person who utilizes a quad is Plushenko;
Lambiel cancels his out by not having a triple axel;
Verner cancels his out by double is last three jumps;
Joubert cancels his out by making 3 or 4 minor mistakes or by backing off the rest of his program;
Voronov sometimes forget there is music playing so his Pcs cancel out his quad.

So only plushenko is ahead; everyone else is equal;
I say if plushenko makes one major mistake it could be;
Oda(finally dont zayak; did do a quad triple at worlds) ; Plushenko, Jeremy Abbot (with quad) on the podium or Evan lysacek without quad or Daisuke without quad

I agree the quad is a must for the champion or even the podium but this analysis by Enlight pretty much sums it up.. If the quad is not brought in with a context of two 3axels and fully utilised combos (of course without watering down the spins and the footwork), it will not make a difference. This will be the case unless its base value is higher. That's why I said the podium can be easily made without a quad.
 

wonderlen3000

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 8, 2008
YES. Of all the men: Plushenko, Verner, Joubert and Lambiel will difinitely be planning a 4T+3T in the SP. If they all land it and all the other elements are clean, they will be a lock in the final group. Also i don't think anyone will be getting those ridicoulus 87+ mark with just triple-triple alone like back in GPF or 4CC. Olympics judges are known to be more strict and will not be awarding a string of +2 GOE on jumps for sure. A clean short program with 3A, 3Lz+3T, 3F will probably get you around 83-84 range most. Although adding the 4T in the SP will only increase the TES mark by 4.5 point, some skater will have a huge PCS boost for sure.

In FS, if Plushenko stay on his feet and land his quad and his 3As, he will probably walk away with another gold. A quad and 7 triples program TES mark is still about 4-5 points higher than 8 triples program. So unless a skater attempt, quad, it will be along shot to stay on the podium.
 

schiele

Final Flight
Joined
Oct 13, 2009
I've been a long-term fan of Tomas's skating and absolutely believe that he has everything that makes him a great champion (but the mental strength). But sorry I really cannot see this happening (I mean the first part of your story).:p Yet, if it does, yes, judges may be happy to give him credit because everything about his skills is simply fantastic. The only concern may be his underwhelming showings at the GP events this season. He was sick, right? His LP tended to be dull and boring, even though he could have the most passionate, entertaining presentation in the field when he does.

He was down with the flu bug for too long after SA to build up enough stamina for the LP and said he felt like his legs were not responding after the first few jumping passes. He had 0 energy in the rest of the programme and it was the flattest thing I've seen Tomas produce. I hope things go better for him in EC so than he can build some positive energy and confidence out of it before the olympics.
 

Hsuhs

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 8, 2006
Maybe. But by the article it sounds like Evan won't even be trying the quad at nationals. This worries me.

He doesn't need one there, and why risk an injury.

If plushy does a quad in both programs and doesn't make any huge mistakes he will win. Evan could win nicely if he tried and landed thr quad in at least one program. This worries me.

I agree, but one visible mistake on Zhenya's part, like a fall or a popped jump, and voila. And Zhenya is no longer the man he was in 2006. Besides, a silver isn't bad either. I think for Evan the quadless strategy works better than trying to impress the quad king/ girls/ judges with a 2-footed/ UR/ failed quad.
 

seniorita

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
How evan is a sure thing for podium even without a quad? You just count that other will falter and he will not (which is the most probable) but still. Otherwise for example if Oda is clean without a quad I think his programs will get better marks. And I wish Johnny's too.

From all quad guys if Takahashi does a quad and two clean programs he will be the Olympic Champion, I m sure of it. His programs have no match, the judges are waiting for him to justify his tes with a quad. I dont know what happens with Lambiel cause we say ok he has a quad and not a 3axel but still his quads are shaky and a single toe as the second jump. I m looking forward to seeing Traviata lp. Plushenko has not done a 3 jumps combo yet and he count on tes a lot, as Hhus said if he pops one jump, bye bye. Jouby I dont know at all. Verber will (fill the blank). For chan I dont know, maybe after the weekend we have an idea.

I think the guys who tried the quad all season will do it, kudos to abbott and takahashi for trying it. It shows they are planning it for sure. It will matter also who is in the last group or not and if the scores are close. If evan is in the last group and skates first he will probably try it cause he wont know what the others will try.
I believe also one of the skaters that this is their first Olys, might be on the podium.

Plush does meticulously tick them off, even if the earth's rotation is the only reason he actually goes round!
Ant
Being busy doesnt mean I cant read :unsure:
But:rofl:I cant stop laughing!:laugh:
But I checked his rn videos, his sit spin is fast and centered and lower than before 2006, then when he changes to pancake etc it looks like he needs a serious push:rolleye:
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
Here is a new article/interview with Evan :

"Whoever skates clean with a quad will win it," Lysacek said. "I don't think many will. All the tricks from Torino won't work anymore."

The article notes Evan's consistency:

"He won Skate America in November and the Grand Prix final last month. Since the 2006 Turin Olympics, Lysacek has medaled or won 26 straight events."

Read more: http://www.denverpost.com/headlines...kipframe-kwantifiable.xanga.com#ixzz0cVnUzC1r
 
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museksk8r

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 31, 2006
Country
United-States
If Lambiel falters, the bronze is open for challengers. Take your pick of the "iffy" quad line up. Evan, Jeremy, Dai, Patrick, Tomas, Sergei

:confused: When has Patrick ever landed a clean ratified quad in competition? I've yet to see that. His attempts thus far have only resulted in falls and he's never attempted it at a major competition yet. To my knowledge, he's only attempted it at the Liberty Open at the beginning of this season.

If all of the "iffy" falter then the "musical" quadless entertainers could be considered. Oda, Weir, Amodio, Brezina.

Why put Oda and Weir in this category? They have at least attempted a quad in major competition and Oda has had success with it so far - look at 2009 Worlds as an example. Weir's, though, is prone to downgrades and two-footed landings.
 
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Dee4707

Ice Is Slippery - Alexie Yagudin
Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
Country
United-States
Hmm, thanks for the info., Medusa. :) So I'll revise my wording a bit & say that Evgeni Plushenko will be the only man to successfully land a quad in the SP at the Olympics. Lol, it's a duel of The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly again.:biggrin:

The sad thing is he didn't land it in the 2002 Olympics, which could be the case at any time.
 

Tinymavy15

Sinnerman for the win
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 28, 2006
Wonder what he meant by that. Among other things, Jeffrey Buttle's planned fall on the quad? If so, I agree: that won't work anymore.
I know? What tricks? Maybe he meant plushenko just doing jumps with nothing inbetween?
 

Raatkirani

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 22, 2006
A few quick questions regarding the importance of the quad for a person still struggling with the NJS:

1. What is a quad worth (say a quad toe or salchow) vs. a triple (toe or salchow) vs. a triple axel? Is a quad toe worth the same as a quad salchow or say a quad lutz?

2. How many points for a two footed quad?

3. How many points for a complete fall on a quad? Is there still enough "well, gee I tried it" points to make it worth attempting? How do you get a zero on an attempted jump or is that how the system is?

4. Take someone like Evan Lysacek or Johnny Weir. Didn't they have quads at one time in their careers? What has changed that they can't do them anymore? Is it simply age? Injuries?
 

Raatkirani

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 22, 2006
Thanks so much for this information! Still makes my head spin! It can be quite a mental balancing game to decide whether it is mathematically worth doing the quad.
 

Skatetomusic

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 5, 2009
Yagudin also had great programs in 2002

The sad thing is he didn't land it in the 2002 Olympics, which could be the case at any time.

In 2002 Yagudin had TWO great programs both short and long.

Refering to the above quote:
In addition to Plushenko's mistake in the SP, His program was a replacement program that he and his coach made after Plushenko thought that his original lp was a failure at the GPF. Yagudin could play things strategically and decided to do a great program and eliminated doing his second quad in sequence with a 3 salchow as the second jump there and a second triple axle. He had great footwork and choreography in both programs.

In later years Plushenko would and did improve more areas of his skating. I thought that his lp at the 2003 GPF was his best long program.

He underestimated his program at the 2001-2002 GPF even though he didn't win that competition. That is enough about the rivalry between Yagudin and Plushenko.

For me it is really going to be hard to judge the 2010 men's competition. I hope the skaters who jump and have good choreography are victorius.
 
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