Championship Ladies FS

Layfan · Jan 24, 2010

R.D. said:
But I would never, ever attack these posters in retaliation, like they did

Sorry, I guess I was speaking out of turn and I already acknowledged that you have never been rude about Sasha and I certainly didn't mean to imply that. I was talking about others. All I meant is that it's just as difficult for me to understand why people vilify Sasha as it is for you to understand how harsh people are being about Flatt.

That said, I think people have every right to criticize Flatt's skating. Sasha's too. Not being a skater, I've learned a lot about Sasha's weaknesses from reading her critics on this forum. I still love her, of course, but it's good to have a deeper understanding of her skating, too.

chuckm · Jan 24, 2010

janetfan said:
Rachael was overscored last night and tonight.

That is not the case.

I was in Spokane, and they gave out "ear buds" to the audience members which provided commentary from Technical Specialist David Kirby (who has been TS at many high level ISU events). Kirby wasn't the actual caller in this event, but he is knowledgeable and would be able to tell where the problems are.

Kirby gave a running commentary on each element performed by each skater.

Maybe some of you don't like Rachael Flatt's spins and spirals, but she got L4 on three of her four spins, L3 on the other, and L3 on her footwork. The only negative GOE she got was on her 3F+3T---which Kirby said was rotated but had a stepout (hence the -0.71 GOE). All of her other jumps and her spins and footwork got +GOE. She received no edge calls. Kirby made no negative comments other than on the 3/3.

Ashley got an edge call on her lutz and -GOE on two of her jumps. Kirby mentioned the wrong edge on the lutz and commented on those jump landings.

Mirai got an edge call on her lutz in combo, and got downgraded on her 2A+3T, her solo 3Z and her solo 3T. Kirby commented during her skate that a review would be made on several of her jumps. BTW, Mirai has had a UR problem dating back to the year she made her debut on the JGP.

As much as the audience loved Mirai's performance, there was great cheering when her scores were announced and Rachael had won (and by a large margin). I like Mirai's skating too, but she MUST rotate all her jumps. ISU judges have been very tough on Mirai for her URs, so USFS tech teams have an obligation to be as accurate as possible, or else it would be unfair to the other competitors who ARE rotating their jumps.

Sasha was just a mess, and her lack of training showed. She just didn't have the muscle memory or the stamina to get through a 4-minute program with spins and footwork. That isn't surprising considering the fact that Sasha has really had only a few weeks' practice on 3Z, 3F and 3L. She also had a flutz and 2-foot problem even in her best years, and that hasn't been corrected. Kirby had mentioned the wrong edge and two-foot on Sasha's 3Z+2T in the SP, but the official caller chose to ignore Sasha's flutz at that time. In the FS, Sasha did get an edge call on her opening lutz (and the 2T was again two-footed). Sasha received -GOE on every jump, and Kirby noted that each one was a bit off and would be reviewed. She also received only L1 on her step sequence because she didn't do enough turns. Sasha didn't even get her usual very high +GOE on her spins. In the past, she usually got all 2s and 3s, but here the GOE was mostly 1s with a few 2s and 0s, probably because Sasha lacked energy and speed. When you look at her protocol, it's amazing that she scored as high as she did.

Rachael Flatt has to be respected for her superior technical skills, nerves of steel and incredible consistency. She has worked hard over the past three years and has corrected her flutz as well as concentrating on other areas that need improvement, including speed and spins. Maybe her spins aren't top-level, but they are miles better than they were two years ago.

Congratulations to her for winning the US Championship, and boo to all the naysayers.

PROKOFIEV · Jan 24, 2010

Phoenix347 said:
Yes, you are misremembering. Alissa AND Ashley beat Mao in the SP at Rostelecom Cup of Russia. They also beat Mao in the LP at the same GP.

And Rachael beat Yuna in the LP at 2009 Skate America.

i love to skate · Jan 24, 2010

Wow, this thread is just nuts. I just came home from the bar and I expected to see people excited for Rachael - and it is quite the opposite in fact. People are tearing her to shreads....why?? She skated a clean program, attacked her jumps, and skated with a spark and determination. Mirai had some technical issues and got penalized for it. What's the problem??

bekalc · Jan 24, 2010

miki88 said:
My problem with Flatt winning is that although she is consistent, she is not elegant nor refined in her skating which I thought is a quite important aspect of figure skating. I feel CoP is rewinding the clock for figure skating. The results are just as confusing as those during the era of compulsive figures, where wonderful skaters like Janet Lynn were beaten by skaters who were better at doing figures. And you wonder why figure skating is no longer popular with the general audience. Jumps are important but so is overall presentation (and in my opinion, more so because figure skating is a performance sport).

This is a sport and the jumps are a big part of what makes it a sport. When Rachael is up against people who have good triples, artistry and skating skills, she loses. She even loses when she's cleaner then them. Unfortunately right now the US doesn't have that skater.. Rachael is not my favorite skater at all. But you know what she DID get a standing ovation, that's something.

The skaters know that jumps are a huge part of what makes a champion growing up, that's why its important for them and their coaches to work on things like technique when it comes to jumps.

I'm going to say this too, as for Janet Lynn, during the time figures was a major part of the sport. So the people who were beating Janet were beating Janet fairly. Maybe figures was something Janet needed to work harder on. I remember in a speech a couple of years ago Janet seemed to actually criticize the sport for not having figures. Not to mention the fact that a lot of times going in the free skate, Janet was so far behind that she would have nothing to lose in the free skate. Its easier to skate free and beautifully when you have no shot at winning.

I seem to recall that at the Olympics Janet actually finally had a shot at winning, and actually ended up not winning because she made a mistake in the free. Whose to say that Janet's free skating would have been as great as it was if the free skate had meant more through most of her career. The thing about figures is that it required nerves of steel to do figures well.

kandidy · Jan 24, 2010

Seriously, why ppl here kept saying Rachael beated Yuna in LP portion, Mirai was first in SP at skate canada,or Alissa beated mao in SP, blah blah, it is the overall competition that counts that's why they have both SP and LP. You can't be do switch off the previous day , comback suddenly turn on and then think you are capable of winning against Mao and Yuna?
Let Rachael and Mirai prved in international scene they cold deliver both SP and LP and actually finla BEAT the great Asian skaters that's how you called "Beat".

miki88 · Jan 24, 2010

Mathman said:
:yes: Figure skating has to decide whether it wants to be a spectator sport or a sport just for the participants and insiders. For a spectator sport, the audience must know, when they leave the arena, who won and why. If they don't, then like your nephews they will never come back.

:yes: I became a fan of figure skating because of the beautiful artistry and presentation of skaters like Michelle Kwan and Sasha Cohen. I am sure a lot of causal fans and the general public also enjoy it for this reason. So if figure skating wants to increase its popularity and get more sponsors, then I think it should remain a spectator sport. There is a way to do this I think within the current system. I think the PCS scores should vary more according to the performance. I feel PCS score now can almost be called reputation score. Skaters who are of the same level in reputation get similar PCS scores regardless of their actual presentation.

PROKOFIEV · Jan 24, 2010

Rachael Flatt has to be respected for her superior technical skills, nerves of steel and incredible consistency. She has worked hard over the past three years and has corrected her flutz as well as concentrating on other areas that need improvement, including speed and spins. Maybe her spins aren't top-level, but they are miles better than they were two years ago.

Congratulations to her for winning the US Championship, and boo to all the naysayers.

:rock:

Let's respect and cheer our new national champion!!!

chuckm · Jan 24, 2010

R.D. said:
I can't believe what people are saying about Flatt. Damn, I really hope she just goes out and knocks 'em dead at Olys. And who knows...if the stars are aligned that night...just MAYBE a dark horse for the bronze medal???

I couldn't agree more.

Let me tell you, as Rachael skated, the audience got more and more excited and we rose as one when she had finished and let out a huge cheer!

The audience loved Mirai too, but was content with Rachael's win.

Just because we want Mirai to fully rotate her jumps doesn't mean she will. What looks good to us is not the criteria. If the USFS tech team spotted Mirai's URs, then the ISU judges will ding her for them too (as they have done in both Mirai's GP events). That is something that Mirai must work on to take full advantage of her excellent spins, spirals and expressiveness.

Layfan · Jan 24, 2010

i love to skate said:
Wow, this thread is just nuts. I just came home from the bar and I expected to see people excited for Rachael - and it is quite the opposite in fact. People are tearing her to shreads....why?? She skated a clean program, attacked her jumps, and skated with a spark and determination. Mirai had some technical issues and got penalized for it. What's the problem??

People have explained why they think Mirai was the winner. I think it was close and a case could be made for both Mirai and Rachael. I vastly preferred Mirai and I think her superior spins, spirals and grace should have put her over the top. But Rachael had stronger jumps and I respect that she won. What's wrong with debating it? What's the point of having a forum if we can't criticize the skating we see?

Mathman · Jan 24, 2010

i love to skate said:
What's the problem??

I think the problem is that most people who saw the competition thought that Mirai skated circles around Rachael.

And that really is the problem. When I go to a hockey game I don't know the blue line from the rings of Saturn, but I know what a goal is and I know that if you score more of them than the other guy then you win.

Yes, the skaters, federation officials, technical callers and the like know all about levels and deductions. But by the same token you can';t blame the first-time audience member or television viewer who just shrugs and says, that was baloney, I'll never watch that sport again.

i love to skate · Jan 24, 2010

Layfan said:
What's the point of having a forum if we can't criticize the skating we see?

There's criticizing and then there is ripping a 17 year old to shreads which is exactly what is happening here.

ETA:

Mathman said:
I think the problem is that most people who saw the competition thought that Mirai skated circles around Rachael.

And that really is the problem. When I go to a hockey game I don't know the blue line from the rings of Saturn, but I know what a goal is and I know that if you score more of them than the other guy then you win.

Yes, the skaters, federation officials, technical callers and the like know all about levels and deductions. But by the same token you can';t blame the first-time audience member or television viewer who just shrugs and says, that was baloney, I'll never watch that sport again.

How was it baloney? Rachael skated a great progam and landed 7 triple jumps! Mirai attempted 6 and only got credit for 3. It isn't as if Rachael skated like crap and won. It isn't any different than people debating who should have won in theTara or Michelle days or any number of close rivalries.

R.D. · Jan 24, 2010

chuckm said:
That is not the case.

I was in Spokane, and they gave out "ear buds" to the audience members which provided commentary from Technical Specialist David Kirby (who has been TS at many high level ISU events). Kirby wasn't the actual caller in this event, but he is knowledgeable and would be able to tell where the problems are.

Kirby gave a running commentary on each element performed by each skater.

Maybe some of you don't like Rachael Flatt's spins and spirals, but she got L4 on three of her four spins, L3 on the other, and L3 on her footwork. The only negative GOE she got was on her 3F+3T---which Kirby said was rotated but had a stepout (hence the -0.71 GOE). All of her other jumps and her spins and footwork got +GOE. She received no edge calls. Kirby made no negative comments other than on the 3/3.

Ashley got an edge call on her lutz and -GOE on two of her jumps. Kirby mentioned the wrong edge on the lutz and commented on those jump landings.

Mirai got an edge call on her lutz in combo, and got downgraded on her 2A+3T, her solo 3Z and her solo 3T. Kirby commented during her skate that a review would be made on several of her jumps. BTW, Mirai has had a UR problem dating back to the year she made her debut on the JGP.

As much as the audience loved Mirai's performance, there was great cheering when her scores were announced and Rachael had won (and by a large margin). I like Mirai's skating too, but she MUST rotate all her jumps. ISU judges have been very tough on Mirai for her URs, so USFS tech teams have an obligation to be as accurate as possible, or else it would be unfair to the other competitors who ARE rotating their jumps.

Sasha was just a mess, and her lack of training showed. She just didn't have the muscle memory or the stamina to get through a 4-minute program with spins and footwork. That isn't surprising considering the fact that Sasha has really had only a few weeks' practice on 3Z, 3F and 3L. She also had a flutz and 2-foot problem even in her best years, and that hasn't been corrected. Kirby had mentioned the wrong edge and two-foot on Sasha's 3Z+2T in the SP, but the official caller chose to ignore Sasha's flutz at that time. In the FS, Sasha did get an edge call on her opening lutz (and the 2T was again two-footed). Sasha received -GOE on every jump, and Kirby noted that each one was a bit off and would be reviewed. She also received only L1 on her step sequence because she didn't do enough turns. Sasha didn't even get her usual very high +GOE on her spins. In the past, she usually got all 2s and 3s, but here the GOE was mostly 1s with a few 2s and 0s, probably because Sasha lacked energy and speed. When you look at her protocol, it's amazing that she scored as high as she did.

Rachael Flatt has to be respected for her superior technical skills, nerves of steel and incredible consistency. She has worked hard over the past three years and has corrected her flutz as well as concentrating on other areas that need improvement, including speed and spins. Maybe her spins aren't top-level, but they are miles better than they were two years ago.

Congratulations to her for winning the US Championship, and boo to all the naysayers.

Flatt laid it down once again. She is so reliable and consistent...we really need someone like her at the Olympics.

Cohen looked to me as if she basically expected not to be competitive with the top crop as she looked completely relaxed and at ease while everyone else had their game face on. It seems to me as if she simply accepted the reality a while back and came out just looking to perform again. She didn't even look disappointed after she finished skating. I think she was just glad to have the opportunity to compete at this point as things didn't seem to go her way over the fall. It shouldn't be a shock to anyone, honestly. I suspect she could have easily withdrawn from the event after the SP but she went for it and that really takes guts.

chuckm · Jan 24, 2010

The plain fact: Rachael attempted and landed SEVEN triples. Mirai attempted 6 triples but landed only three, because the other three were underrotated.

THAT is why Rachael won and Mirai was second.

R.D. · Jan 24, 2010

NBC didn't show the jumps in slo-mo though. I was just a bit surprised at the result but I guess I'm not up in arms about it because I don't really have evidence that shows that the result should have been otherwise.

Phoenix347 · Jan 24, 2010

kandidy said:
Seriously, why ppl here kept saying Rachael beated Yuna in LP portion, Mirai was first in SP at skate canada,or Alissa beated mao in SP, blah blah, it is the overall competition that counts that's why they have both SP and LP. You can't be do switch off the previous day , comback suddenly turn on and then think you are capable of winning against Mao and Yuna?
Let Rachael and Mirai prved in international scene they cold deliver both SP and LP and actually finla BEAT the great Asian skaters that's how you called "Beat".

Ashley and Alissa did beat Mao overall at 2009 Rostelecom Cup of Russia. Admittedly, it was one of Mao's worst performance in years (150.28 points.) However, it will be hard for Flatt and Nagasu to beat Yuna and Mao at the Olympics. They'll also find it hard to beat Ando and Rochette there, too. Flatt will have problems with PCS and Mirai will problems with UR calls and PCS. Even Lepisto and Kostner will be a challenge for them.

bekalc · Jan 24, 2010

chuckm said:
I couldn't agree more.

Let me tell you, as Rachael skated, the audience got more and more excited and we rose as one when she had finished and let out a huge cheer!

The audience loved Mirai too, but was content with Rachael's win.

Just because we want Mirai to fully rotate her jumps doesn't mean she will. What looks good to us is not the criteria. If the USFS tech team spotted Mirai's URs, then the ISU judges will ding her for them too (as they have done in both Mirai's GP events). That is something that Mirai must work on to take full advantage of her excellent spins, spirals and expressiveness.

Exactly. I'm tired of hearing how unfair it is that Mirai gets the scores she gets. Mirai has issues with her jumps. These issues need to be fixed and dealt with. It takes a lot of work to master doing clean triple jumps. And its also harder to land a clean triple jump. The skaters who land clean triples deserve to be rewarded for them. Period...

And as for the spectator sport about skating, I think that there are currently skaters who combine the technical and the artistic aspects of this sport really well Yu-na, Mao, Rochette, even Ando has spectacular jumps that can make you go wow!

I think its a good thing that the USFSA judges are finally cracking down on the UTRs. This will ensure that the coaches start teaching their young skaters how to jump correctly, even if it means a little more time. Look at the difference right now between Christina Gao and Caroline Zhang. There is only a one year difference... The US commentators said it really well about how Gao was hardly looking like the USA's next big hope at 13 ala Zhang. But she's clearly being regarded as that as now. Whereas Zhang is clearly going downhill. The difference between the two, Gao clearly had coaches and not just Orser who taught her how to jump correctly. It probably took her a little more time to develop this excellent technique but now that its there she can likely have a longer career.

Moxie · Jan 24, 2010

You know, Sasha may have had a messy LP but I'm still really glad she came back for one last competitive hurrah. My opinion of her even improved because it couldn't have been easy to come back knowing you weren't consistent even in your prime. And she handled herself very well in that interview w/ that awful Andrea Joyce.

How sweet are Sasha and Mr. Nicks?? But I think he drilled it in her head too much that she needed to stay on her feet -- at the detriment of her performance. She was nowhere close to her usually dazzling self.

bekalc · Jan 24, 2010

Originally Posted by Mathman
I think the problem is that most people who saw the competition thought that Mirai skated circles around Rachael.

And that really is the problem. When I go to a hockey game I don't know the blue line from the rings of Saturn, but I know what a goal is and I know that if you score more of them than the other guy then you win.

Yes, the skaters, federation officials, technical callers and the like know all about levels and deductions. But by the same token you can';t blame the first-time audience member or television viewer who just shrugs and says, that was baloney, I'll never watch that sport again.

Or maybe what was "baloney" was Scott and Sandra not talking about Mirai's history of underrotating her jumps from the beginning. I think that most first time watchers would actually agree that its important that the jumps be rotated... That it wouldn't be fair for someone to get full credit for a glorified double. When I was watching I was sitting there telling my mom I don't know what Mirai's scores are going to be like, she tends to underrotate her jumps. So Mom wasn't up in arms when Rachael won.

Mathman · Jan 24, 2010

^ Well, we can't settle this question on a message board. Instead, people will vote with their remotes. We'll see what happens.

Championship Ladies FS

Layfan

chuckm

PROKOFIEV

i love to skate

bekalc

kandidy

miki88

PROKOFIEV

chuckm

Layfan

Mathman

i love to skate

R.D.

chuckm

R.D.

Phoenix347

bekalc

Moxie

bekalc

Mathman

Similar threads

Connect with us