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Championship Ladies FS

MK's Winter

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 9, 2009
I just watched Mirai on NBC again. I'm not buying the URs. Maybe on ONE jump, but how can that possibly outweigh the stronger spin positions, spirals, and other program elements? To give Rachael Flatt 15+ points over Mirai? Please.

If I were Frank Carroll I'd be ticked at the bias against his skater.

Either way, please for love of all that is holy, someone get Rachael to stop doing that one ugly spin in her program, where she lifts up one leg and then the other. Its hideous.

Thanks God Im not the only one who noticed that spin!
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
You don't see Mirai saying she was robbed----because she knows she wasn't.

The fact is (what fun to say that :laugh:) that you do not know what Mirai is thinking.

The fact is you believe whatever Speedy's tech callers decide is a good or bad jump and i dont.

The fact is they have been known to make mistakes.

The fact is Carroll knows more than you do.

The fact is saying "the fact is" is not convincing and proves nothing. :laugh:

Have a good evening. Thanks for some of your comments which I enjoyed and found informative.
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
Rachael's spins may not be particularly appealing, but they fulfull the CoP requirements for level and the judges do not find them lacking.

I never liked Irina Slutskaya's spins, but I understood that at the time they met the requirements that were in place and they added to her marks.

I find Emily Hughes' spins and spirals horrid because she displays the least attractive parts of her anatomy, but they do deserve the levels and GOEs they get.

Pretty is not necessarily synonymous with "better". Some of Mirai's jumps are pretty, but they are unfortunately for her, technically deficient.
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
The fact is (what fun to say that :laugh:) that you do not know what Mirai is thinking.

But I sat directly across from the KnC and saw her face light up with joy when her score was announced and she was second.

The fact is you believe whatever Speedy's tech callers decide is a good or bad jump and i dont. The fact is they have been known to make mistakes..

Where is the evidence of these 'mistakes'? You seem to be saying that all technical teams are bad, evil people who don't let your favorite skaters win.

The fact is Carroll knows more than you do.

Of course he does!

But that doesn't mean that Carroll is in more possession of the truth about the URs than the three members of the technical team.

The fact is saying "the fact is" is not convincing and proves nothing. :laugh:

You have not provided a shred of evidence that any of your assertions about the URs is true.
 

Layfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
Rachael's spins may not be particularly appealing, but they fulfull the CoP requirements for level and the judges do not find them lacking.

I never liked Irina Slutskaya's spins, but I understood that at the time they met the requirements that were in place and they added to her marks.

I find Emily Hughes' spins and spirals horrid because she displays the least attractive parts of her anatomy, but they do deserve the levels and GOEs they get.

Pretty is not necessarily synonymous with "better". Some of Mirai's jumps are pretty, but they are unfortunately for her, technically deficient.

Doesn't it bother you that CoP rewards "horrid" spirals? I haven't paid that much attention to Emily's spirals. But from they way they seem to strike you it seem like you even want to look away while she is doing them. Something wrong with a system that rewards moves that make fans cringe.
 

MKFSfan

Medalist
Joined
Mar 15, 2006
Looking at the protocols, those URs REALLY hurt Mirai (obviously!). Her base value was then 12.76 points lower than Rachael's start value. Without the URs, her base value would've raised another 10 points at least. Given she received an addition 6 points in GOEs, one could speculate without URs that would add another point or two on +GOEs. So, without URs, Mirai most likely would've beaten Rachael by around 2 points.

((I'm guessing TES would've been 70.71 and even in PCS marks stay the same, 61.78, she'd get a 132.49 for the LP and the Gold!))

But even if she only was hit with one UR (the rather obviously UR 2nd 3toe) instead of with three URs, she'd still be 2nd overall, and also would've been 2nd in LP.

Rachael had the advantage of an extra triple (attempted 7 triples to Mirai's 6) s her sloppy landing in the 3/3 is more forgivable. Mirai had the lead in spins and spirals, Rachael the footwork. But Rachael neailed it down by her smart jump layout and solid jump technique.

Just for the record...I was rooting for Mirai and thoroughly enjoyed her performance more than any of the others. I wanted her to win, and thought when I saw her over joyous reaction, that she had. But looking at the protocols, I understand why Rachael won and think the judges got it right.
 

Ice&Glass

Rinkside
Joined
Jan 19, 2010
All I know for sure is that

...even with all those downgrades I would love to watch Mirai's wonderful LP over and over again whereas I will probably never EVER replay rachael's LP. :frown:
I think this surely tells something.
 

museksk8r

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 31, 2006
Country
United-States
I have seen the LP several times and agree with Carroll. The urs were bogus.

I only see one not three. In fact, it is easy to see Mirai had the cleaner jumps.

Actually, if you watched the broadcast on NBC this afternoon, you would have seen where they did closeup slow motion of Mirai's 3 downgraded jumps and you can clearly see that she under-rotated all 3 of them. She was penalized for 3 cheated jumps . . . that is the way of sport.
 

karenll

Rinkside
Joined
Jan 23, 2010
I really hate the disruption argument many people make. Incorrect technique is an error and should be penalized. Even though mistakes can be estherically pleasing doesn't mean they shouldn't be penalized. Other sports with judged competitions all hand out penalties for incorrect technique, even though the errors may still be esthetically pleasing. In fact, I was watching Caroline skate once with a friend and my friend asked if her difficult variation (read mule kick) gained more points. Because she thought the mule kick looked good, should it not be granted - GOE??

Do falls not count as incorrect technique? In addition to disrupting a program, they are much more serious technical failures than URs is what I hear people saying, and that's why they should be penalized more.
 

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Well, off we go to the Olys!

This is the first time in my life that the THOUGHT of actually not watching the competition at the Olys has crossed my mind! I can't believe this. But I think when the Games start, all that will change and I will at least try to catch the ladies' competition to cheer on Team USA. I just probably won't plan my schedule around them like I did for '02 and '06...
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Moderator's post. The following was posted by new Golden Skate member Mishi. To Mishi: please read your personal message inbox. Welcome 0o Golden Skate. Post often, post long. :)

The fact is (what fun to say that :laugh:) that you do not know what Mirai is thinking.

The fact is you believe whatever Speedy's tech callers decide is a good or bad jump and i dont.

The fact is they have been known to make mistakes.

The fact is Carroll knows more than you do.

The fact is saying "the fact is" is not convincing and proves nothing. :laugh:

Have a good evening. Thanks for some of your comments which I enjoyed and found informative.

Mishi writes: Hi, I'm new here. I was reading through this thread and didn't see this article posted.

http://web.icenetwork.com/news/artic...&vkey=ice_news

This snippet addresses what Mirai was thinking.

"I know my last toe felt shaky, but the rest felt really secure," Nagasu said. "I made a slight mistake on my layback, and I'm really mad about that. It's my best element, and it's what makes me stand out."

So I guess she didn't sense anything wrong with her other jumps.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
NBC JUST showed slow-mo of two of Mirai's jumps. They were definitely UR.

Actually, if you watched the broadcast on NBC this afternoon, you would have seen where they did closeup slow motion of Mirai's 3 downgraded jumps and you can clearly see that she under-rotated all 3 of them.

I guess so. I couldn't really tell for sure except on the solo 3T. Dick Button said so, though, so I guess they were.

I take my hat off to the technical specialists that have to make these calls.
 

FlattFan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
Like I said, I recorded the event and watched her jumps in slow mo and she definitely underrotated the 3 jumps. Her flip is also questionable. She's really lucky they didn't go after that one as well or she'll be the one sitting at home in Feb.

The girl is over the moon with her score when she realized she was in 2nd place. Why not leave it at that?

Maybe someone should start a thread "Ashley wuzrobbed" to see how it feels to have "experts" "feel" each program.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
So I've been reading this thread all day on my cell phone, but obviously did not have the chance to write. (Too difficult.) But now that I'm home, I wanted to share my thoughts and opinions.

1.) First of all, congrats to both Rachael and Mirai for making the team. You both will represent our country well and I happy that you guys did your best. Also props to Ashley Wagner for giving it her all. I think her time will come, just wait! Also props to Sasha Cohen. I was skeptical of her comeback. But the fact she did it and went for it, well I was really glad for her. And I was also really refreshed by her sportsmanship and her kind words toward the other skaters.

2.) I am amazed at how much people are ripping a new one on Rachael. I'm not saying that you're not entitled to your opinions or share why or why not she should have won (I think people have shared very interesting points of view.) But some people have been nasty, and I have found that appalling. And I know I will get some argument that Rachael needs to be willing to take some heat, but I also believe that one can cross the line.

3.) Someone pointed on this thread about how basically casual people would be turn off by skating cause Rachael doesn't have "it" or isn't as graceful, etc.
I will point out that I have an example that doesn't support that. My husband, Mr. P, does not watch skating as seriously as I do. He does not know the scoring system or about the skates' back stories. He has, however, been watching Grand Prix Events and other events with me all season. So who caught his eye? Rachael.
I asked him what he admires about her. "She's strong. She's just goes out there and does the job. I love how athletic she is. And she's spunky and cute." Later on, he also pointed out, "I also like that she's having fun out there."
And I explained to him that so people don't like his skating because her spins and spirals weren't as great as the other skaters. His response: "Well, that's obvious. Her body is different from the other skaters. It's pretty obvious that she's not able to bend that way."
And I think everyone is using the "but the audience roared more loudly for Mirai" argument as a diss on Rachael." I think that's far from the truth. I bet there were viewers like my husband who really loved Rachael's style. Personally, I too thought Mirai had a great skate and though that she might have won.

4.) Which brings me to another point -- what Rachel's style is. I think that there are clear weaknesses in her skating-- I agree her spin positions are very weak. But I love that she can do a seven-triple program. I love that she's willing to just go for it. And I also like her consistency. And I think that she knows that perhaps she can't do the other non-jump skills as well as the other skaters, so that's why she works on her jumps. In life, you do what it takes. And she's shown that in every aspect of her life. (I've taken AP classes, and those were hard enough. To do that and be a top skater? Well I think that's amazing.)

5.) I also think that a lot of people misread Scott's quote in the NYT. It was clear that while he was amazed by Mirai's performance, he also respects Rachael's ability to do the job when it counts. And she has. She's not perfect, but for the last three years...she has stayed up on top and worked on staying competitive.

6.) As for Mirai, I think she was happy she made the Olympic team. Maybe she has the same disagreements that you all have about the judging, but she certainly didn't show that. One thing that struck me was that she said the following during the press conference"We're just going to blow them away! Bam! Bam! Bam!" She has a respect for Rachael and it shows. Her coach might disagree with the judging, but that doesn't mean his skater will change her mind about a fellow skater. Yes they will compete against each other, but I think they will also inspire the other to do better.
 

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
^ Nice post. In an Oly year, 2nd at Nationals is a victory in itself because you're (most likely) on the Olympic team. Normally, 3rd would be as well, but not this year :no:

Rachel is not the most exciting skater (I do like her SP though), but she is dependable and can handle pressure well. That is VITAL for an Olympic team. Someone who can carry the torch and set an example. I'm very glad that she made it.

Nagasu got here on the strength of her short program, and the unfortunate SP from Wagner which put her too far behind to catch up. Of course, her FS was good too, but those URs, man... I dunno. Still, it's great she's going to Olys because it gives her a great experience and who knows- maybe it could lead to bigger things in Sochi ;)
 

Layfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
^ Nice post. In an Oly year, 2nd at Nationals is a victory in itself because you're (most likely) on the Olympic team. Normally, 3rd would be as well, but not this year :no:

Rachel is not the most exciting skater (I do like her SP though), but she is dependable and can handle pressure well. That is VITAL for an Olympic team. Someone who can carry the torch and set an example. I'm very glad that she made it.

Nagasu got here on the strength of her short program, and the unfortunate SP from Wagner which put her too far behind to catch up. Of course, her FS was good too, but those URs, man... I dunno. Still, it's great she's going to Olys because it gives her a great experience and who knows- maybe it could lead to bigger things in Sochi ;)

Wagner for sure would be on the team if it hadn't been for the one fall. It must be killing her. I feel very badly. It just brings home the point of why it's so sad we have only 3 spots, as Wagner really did very well at nationals. But I always thought that if she is as solid and consistent as people said she should prove it at nationals, the most pressure-packed programs these girls will face this season. It was Mirai and Rachel who proved it.

Even though I thought Mirai should've won nationals I'm glad Rachel's on the team too. Her nerves of steel are superhuman. And kudos for her for setting the technical standard so high for the U.S. women. The truth is, the U.S. women need to be able to do 3-3 to truly be competitive on the world stage so American judges should certainly reward a skater like Rachel who is doing them and doing them so consistently. Of course, Rachel isn't truly competitive on the world stage for other reasons and that too is a problem. Anyhow, I think Rachel and Mirai definitely won the intense battle for the two Olympic berths and that we are sending the right girls. Go team!
 
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