Championship Ladies FS | Page 47 | Golden Skate

Championship Ladies FS

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
Mirai's URs are not that concerning at this point because:

1.) 2a-3t is a hard combination to get ratified, it essentially is a 3-3, Akiko was getting dinged for it this season before she changed in to a sequence. Mirai either does a 3t-2a sequence or a 3-2 with her most solid triple jump in it's place.

2.) The second lutz would probably been ratified under a different panel. Of all the jumps that got UR calls, this was the most rotated.

3.) The 3t at the end of the program was the only jump that I thought deserved to get a UR call. This is just stamina, she was tired and had to wait a long time after the warmup before she skated, which is hard to do and probably the reason Ashley fell in the SP. Her 3t is not usually a problematic jump for her so I'm sure it's something that can be worked on before the Olympics.

So if Mirai gets one UR call at the Olympics or Worlds, it's not going to ruin her chances of placing well. All she needs to do is replace the 2a-3t combo (she can still fit in 6 triples without doing that combination) and work on stamina so she doesn't get tired at the end. Once she does this, she will be fine and kick butt :rock:. I'm sure she and Frank are aware of what her issues are and will be working to fix them in these last few weeks.

Mirai underrotated the same 3 jumps at Cup of China (plus two more: 2Lo in the 3-jump combo and the 2T in the 3Lo combo).

At Skate Canada, Mirai did not attempt the 2A+3T; she did 2A+2T. She didn't UR the solo 3Z or the 3T, but URd the same two double jumps as at Cup of China, and she got "e" on both her lutzes, with stiff penalties (-2.00 for one and -3.00 for the other).

I'm not sure Mirai can fix her UR problems overnight. She's been URing jumps consistently since 2008. She probably needs to revamp her pick jump technique, and that is not an easy task. She also is going to have to work on that flutz, because losing 5 points in the FS will definitely hurt her in the standings.
 
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FlattFan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
One has to laugh at the CoP system. A thousand people hailed Mirai as the winner but the CoP said no she is not. c'est la vie.
Both Ladies did very well, and it is time to wish them a super Olys and get the USFS a 13pt score between them at Worlds.

I would like to know who are those thousand of people. How come no one asked me who I thought won? I'll give them a piece of my mind on Mirai's UR and tell them she shouldn't even be alternate, maybe alternate to the alternate. :rofl:
 

Sasha'sSpins

Medalist
Joined
Apr 2, 2009
Country
United-States
Yes, I think you make good points.
As you previously pointed out it was nice that no one booed Rachael when they saw that she had won. Rachael or any other skater does not deserve that type of treatment no matter how much another skater was preferred..

But rules aside for a minute - skating can't survive as we know it without the type of performance Mirai delivered.

The fact that Scott got emotionally involved along with the majority of the crowd and the majority of the TV viewers would be shortsighted and even foolish to overlook.

Or, as some have mentioned in the past, we can lose the music and the costumes and just line up the skaters for a jumping contest - something like the vault in gymnastics.

Then another event for spinning. Then an event for steps.......
After all the separate events have been completed an all around winner can be declared with individual medals for the winners of each event.

This would be the ultimate realization of the CoP. A pure athletic competition with little to do with the most unique aspect of skating - the performance art.

Maybe they should try it. I am sure it is what Speedy would be most comfortable with. And while we are at it throw in a couple of sprint races so we can see who are the fastest figure skaters.

I think the most special and unique aspect of figure skating - and what sets it apart from other sports - is the type of performance Mirai delivered at Natls.

It is for moments like that that I have enjoyed skating. If they take that away, they lose me and the vast majority of fans.

:clap::clap::clap::rock:
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
If that's the case, than that sucks. I understand why they'd boost Sasha at the expense of everyone else. I'm not sure why they'd boost Flatt (or Wagner).
 

Figure88

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 3, 2009
Jeez, why are people still getting riled up about this issue? It isn't as if they're depriving Mirai of going to Olympics because of the UR/edge calls. She's one of top 2. Mission accomplished.

Good luck to both of them!
 
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Joined
Jul 11, 2003
I would like to know who are those thousand of people. How come no one asked me who I thought won? I'll give them a piece of my mind on Mirai's UR and tell them she shouldn't even be alternate, maybe alternate to the alternate. :rofl:
I really do not know how much audience is in that arena. For giveme for exaggerating. But most audiences judge skating as who was the most entertaining.
 

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Jeez, why are people still getting riled up about this issue? It isn't as if they're depriving Mirai of going to Olympics because of the UR/edge calls. She's one of top 2. Mission accomplished.

Good luck to both of them!

I agree. When the smoke clears, they will be both Olympians. They both looked happy on the podium.
 
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Dark-Eyes

Rinkside
Joined
Jan 18, 2010
Here's what I think:

1. Obviously we have judges for a reason. This is not a popularity contest, there are rules, there is protocol, and the judging must adhere to those rules.

2. If they are going to slam some skaters for UR, they need to be consistent and call every UR from every skater. Otherwise the protocol is not applied fairly and it skews the scoring.

3. The tendency of judges to hyper-inflate the points for non-jump elements from skaters who consistently jump well needs to stop. Rachael should have been docked hard for some of those horrid spin positions. They were not even average.

4. Scott should not have declared Mirai the winner on National television before he knew the results. That's just basic common sense for all commentators.

5. IMO, Mirai should have won. But in the end, all this arguing isn't going to change a thing, and the same two skaters would be going to the Olympics regardless. Flatt and Nagasu both deserve to be Olympians.
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
Here's what I think:

The tendency of judges to hyper-inflate the points for non-jump elements from skaters who consistently jump well needs to stop. Rachael should have been docked hard for some of those horrid spin positions. They were not even average.

(Sigh)

LEVEL
Base value (the value of the element before GOE) of non-jump elements (spins, spirals, footwork) is dependent on the LEVEL of the element as determined by the tech team. There are specific requirements for each level.

For spins, the level is assigned based on the number of position changes during the spin and the number of rotations achieved in each position. There are also specific requirements of where the feet and leg positions must be relative to the trunk. The value of the spin gets higher with each level achieved. But how 'pretty' the spin looks to observers has nothing whatever to do with the level attained. Rachael received level designations of L4, L4 and L3 for her spins in the FS (Mirai got all L4s).

For the spiral, level is based on the number of positions achieved and the time spent in each position. Again, how 'pretty' the spiral looks to observers has nothing whatever to do with the level. Rachael and Mirai both received L4 for their spirals.

For footwork, level is based on the number, direction and complexity of steps plus the movement of head, upper body and trunk during the length of the step sequence. Both Rachael and Mirai received L3 for their step sequences.

GRADE OF EXECUTION
In addition to the base value of the non-jump element, each judge then evaluates the element for execution and style (and this includes how pleasing the element is to the eye) and rates the element by assigning Grade of Execution from -3 to +3.

Judges would not give negative GOE unless there was a fallout or loss of balance on a spin or spiral, or a stumble in the steps. Neither Rachael nor Mirai had any errors on those elements, so neither one got -GOE.

But while Rachael got mostly 1s and 0s for her spins and spiral, Mirai received hardly any 0s, and mostly 1s, 2s and even a few 3s. Rachael got higher GOEs on her footwork than Mirai, but overall, Mirai outscored Rachael on non-jump elements combined by about 2.5 points.

The bottom line is that all elements in a program are evaluated according to specific technical requirements, and a skater cannot be penalized for not being as flexible as another skater.

The problem for skaters who excel at the non-jump elements but aren't as good at jumps is that there are only 5 non-jump elements in a Ladies program, but there are 7 jump passes. Furthermore, the jumps tend to be worth more than the non-jump elements. A less-proficient jumper who could achieve L4 in every non-jump element AND received +3 GOE from all the judges might be able to edge out a great jumper who had average non-jump elements. But I've yet to see that.
 

Dark-Eyes

Rinkside
Joined
Jan 18, 2010
(Sigh)

LEVEL
Base value (the value of the element before GOE) of non-jump elements (spins, spirals, footwork) is dependent on the LEVEL of the element as determined by the tech team. There are specific requirements for each level.

For spins, the level is assigned based on the number of position changes during the spin and the number of rotations achieved in each position. There are also specific requirements of where the feet and leg positions must be relative to the trunk. The value of the spin gets higher with each level achieved. But how 'pretty' the spin looks to observers has nothing whatever to do with the level attained. Rachael received level designations of L4, L4 and L3 for her spins in the FS (Mirai got all L4s).

Bingo.
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
There are also specific requirements of where the feet and leg positions must be relative to the trunk. The value of the spin gets higher with each level achieved.

Bingo? Not!

This refers to features such as the hair cutter (where the skate must be near to or touching the head), the sit spin (where the knee must be at the same level with the lower part of the butt), the change of foot/edge held through a minimum number of rotations, etc. These requirements deal with the LEVEL of the spin, and have NOTHING to do with how pretty the spin looks. As long as the technical requirements are fulfilled, the spin achieves the level according to the number of difficult positions attained and held. LEVEL is assigned by the tech team.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, which is why the panel of judges assign the grade of execution and can award more points for flexibility, extension, looks. The final GOE is an average of all the judges' GOEs with the high and low thrown out.

Incidentally, dark-eyes, it would be helpful if you read the WHOLE post instead of singling out one sentence and reaching an erroneous conclusion.

Here are the detailed rules for evaluating elements:

Changes for 2009-2010:

http://isu.sportcentric.net/db//files/serve.php?id=1427

Basic Rules 2008-2009:
http://isu.sportcentric.net/db//files/serve.php?id=934
 
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Joined
Jun 21, 2003
^ Still, I think honesty compels us to point out that the judges at U.S. Nationals really liked Rachael's performance (so did I), compared to the judgement of international officials.

Rachael skated lights out in the long program at Skate America, too. Her progrm components were more than five points lower there than at nationals -- a full point lower in every one of the five compoments.

Also, even the briefest glance at the GOEs shows that Rachael got pretty much straight zeros across the board for almost every element. At Nationals, half or more of her GOEs were positive.

Nothing wrong with this. Why shouldn't the USFSA judges like their champion? Still, we can't get all self-righteous about what one skater or another deserved according to the ISU rules. The judges at Skate America interpreted the same rules less generously.
 
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MFarone

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 20, 2003
Country
United-States
Protocols?

I've been looking for protocols that show the GOEs, levels, etc. Anyone have a link?

Thanks

Maureen
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009

Double bingo - let's not forget the most mediocre of spirals can also get level 4.

Actually Chuck's posts were helpful especially to older 6.0 fans.

Mirai needs to sove her ur problem which may take a while even with hard work.

Let's also give Rachael and her coach credit for knowing how to use the system. And let's not forget Rachael has worked hard to get the level four spins and spirals.

The CoP is not about beauty and does not reward beautiful skating the way 6.0 did.
It is more about execution and meeting the rule requirements.

There are very few skaters who can excel at CoP and deliver beautiful skating.
Yuna is the best at it. Mao used to but edge calls and stricter urs have made it more difficult for her..

It appears that if Mirai can fix her urs she can join the elites as one of the select few capable of beautiful positions and presentation with CoP's version of correct technique.
 
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MFarone

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 20, 2003
Country
United-States
Arena

I really do not know how much audience is in that arena. For giveme for exaggerating. But most audiences judge skating as who was the most entertaining.

The Spokane Arena had about 7500 for the ladies FS. All of the top finishers got standing ovations. Mirai might have gotten a little more of a rousing standing ovation than the others. The Spokane audience was very supportive and enthusiastic with all of the skaters at all of the levels. I was listening to the technical specialist David Kirby (who was not actually working the event) on my Skatebug radio. I only remember him mentioning an underrotation for Mirai on one jump - and I really thought she took first. When the scores came up, I knew it had to be more than one underrotation.

I enjoyed Rachael more at this Nationals than any previous competition I've seen her at. She really put some personality into the presentation and really sold the program. Ashley really sold her program and racked up a lot of points, but I didn't like all the 2A sequences.

I'm not a Sasha fan but thought she did ok in the SP. I was surprised there was no edge call on the lutz (she flutzed in practice). The combo was very tight but I don't think she 2footed. The free skate was another matter. I now believe she was injured during the fall and her free skate was really sad. This was the sixth time I've seen Sasha at Nationals and I haven't ever seen her 2foot so many jumps. The fall looked really painful. Her footwork was kind of slow and not very impressive (don't know what level it got). I think she is finished with competition - JMO.

Thanks for the link to the protocols.

Maureen
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
The CoP is not about beauty and does not reward beautiful skating the way 6.0 did.
It is more about execution and meeting the rule requirements.

That is not entirely true.

The tech team is concerned with requirements being met to assign levels. It is not their job to deal with aesthetics.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. The judges are the beholders in figure skating, and they can reward beautiful skating with high GOEs on the elements, and high component scores for the performance.

They can also reward clean athletic skating in the same way.
 
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