Music and Skating

schiele · Feb 5, 2010

seniorita said:
well it is for me at least difficult, I looked dictionary

Etymology: French, from present participle of flamboyer to flame, from Old French, from flambe
Date: 1832
- often capitalized : characterized by waving curves suggesting flames <flamboyant tracery> <flamboyant architecture>
- marked by or given to strikingly elaborate or colorful display or behavior <a flamboyant performer>
- Highly elaborate; ornate.
- Richly colored; resplendent.
- Architecture Of, relating to, or having wavy lines and flamelike forms characteristic of 15th- and 16th-century French Gothic architecture.
- Given to ostentatious or audacious display.

So while I can understand what these sentences mean, I cannot apply it to any skater's style. If you say Weir is the example, I will apply the terms of dictionary on Weir.

Flambé so far I have appplied it in crêpes.

I think Weir's character and galas & shows are definetely flamboyant but I don't think his competitive skating is.

janetfan · Feb 5, 2010

seniorita said:
well it is for me at least difficult, I looked dictionary

Etymology: French, from present participle of flamboyer to flame, from Old French, from flambe
Date: 1832
- often capitalized : characterized by waving curves suggesting flames <flamboyant tracery> <flamboyant architecture>
- marked by or given to strikingly elaborate or colorful display or behavior <a flamboyant performer>
- Highly elaborate; ornate.
- Richly colored; resplendent.
- Architecture Of, relating to, or having wavy lines and flamelike forms characteristic of 15th- and 16th-century French Gothic architecture.
- Given to ostentatious or audacious display.

So while I can understand what these sentences mean, I cannot apply it to any skater's style. If you say Weir is the example, I will apply the terms of dictionary on Weir.

Flambé so far I have appplied it in crêpes.

I love crepes. A plain crepe is not flamboyant. A crepe flambe topped with orange sauce and cognac is flamboyant.

But this is definitely subjective. I can only give my opinion and even if I an trying to generalize others may see it differently.

In tennis we could think of two flamboyant players.

Andre Agassi = good flamboyant
John McEnroe = bad flamboyant

But both were very flamboyant players.

Pete Sampras and Roger Federer for me are not flamboyant players. But both are great.

Watch Plushy's Gala from Euros and then Jeremy's Gala from US Natls. Both are good but very different. To me Plushy is flamboyant and Jeremy is not.

seniorita · Feb 5, 2010

So it is the opposite to sophisticated?

janetfan said:
To me Plushy is flamboyant and Jeremy is not.

Seniorita notes down : Flamboyant= flail arms, have golden hair, make girls scream = God.

Got it!Thanx jntfan :biggrin:

thread has derailed again... :rolleye:

janetfan · Feb 5, 2010

seniorita said:
So it is the opposite to sophisticated?

Seniorita notes down : Flamboyant= flail arms, have golden hair, make girls scream = God.

Got it!Thanx jntfan

thread has derailed again...

That is very simplified and as I said before there is good flamboyant and bad flamboyant.
I did not mean Jeremy's Gala is BETTER than Plushy's. I said both are good and it is up to fans to know which they prefer.

Madona and Beyonce are both very flamboyant performers. I think Beyonce is a better singer but Madona was a better dancer. It does not mean one is better than the other, it is only a matter of which we prefer. For singers I prefer Sarah Vaughan.

I did not mean to imply flamboyancy equals a lack of sophistication.

At times Lambiel can be flamboyant and at other times he is more introverted.

I think i will go out and get some baklava. Always a good idea when I feel flustered :laugh:

ETA: Here is Sarah Vaughan - considered by many as the greatest female vocalist of all time. But it is a matter of what we prefer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuE3lmqsErY

seniorita · Feb 5, 2010

I didnt think you said something bad, on the contrary!
I just kid, the example looked fine to me!

Can we say Abott in Adagio flamboyant?

jennylovskt · Feb 5, 2010

janetfan said:
Watch Plushy's Gala from Euros and then Jeremy's Gala from US Natls. Both are good but very different. To me Plushy is flamboyant and Jeremy is not.

Oh, good,

because I love Jeremy's National Gala performance! (I haven't seen Plushenko's yet.) So ... my interpretation of the word is close enough, right? :biggrin:

Flamboyant also has the meaning of trying hard to make oneself at the center of the attention. Jeremy's gala constume is not flamboyant, but Johnny's Poker Face costume is. Even Johnny's Poker Face hair is flamboyant. I don't know what it means in woman. People often use it on Johnny and some outragous men. No matter how people explain that the word itself is neutral, not bad. I just can't shake off the bad meaning of it.

seniorita · Feb 5, 2010

I just watched both their gala again back to back (wow video of plush gala looks so different from what I watched live!)..I think i got the meaning.

And, no more russian songs, Plushy in Lady Gaga for gala, that would be THE flamboyant! :rock:

Hsuhs · Feb 5, 2010

jennylovskt said:
(I haven't seen Plushenko's yet.).

I saw it on Eurosport the other day. It's not in the flamboyant/ non-flamboyant range. It's gawd awful embarrassingly bad. Unique.

shine · Feb 5, 2010

seniorita said:
I didnt think you said something bad, on the contrary!
I just kid, the example looked fine to me!

Can we say Abbott in Adagio flamboyant?

I think his costume for the program was quite flamboyant. But the music was way too solemn for it to ever be flamboyant, so no. The program that was the closest to flamboyant that he's done (and I've seen) was IMO Masquerade Waltz.

"Flamboyance" to me can be equated to a combination of "flashy, dramatic and over-the-top (in a good way)". Plushenko definitely has always gone for that style. He uses a lot of really over-the-top (IMO in a bad way) facial expression and posing to cover up for the lack of choreography. Takahashi best defines flamboyance these days for me, as well as Emanuel Sandhu and Toller Cranston in his days. The difference between their flamboyance and that of Plushenko's is that formers don't have as much grimaces, come across much more genuine, and hence, convincing.

Lambiel I wouldn't call flamboyant. I think it's amazing how he can be so expressive without ever resorting to over-the-topness.

seniorita · Feb 5, 2010

Hsuhs said:
I saw it on Eurosport the other day. It's not in the flamboyant/ non-flamboyant range. It's gawd awful embarrassingly bad. Unique.

too bad, spectators and commentators thought the opposite. Unless all were plush ubers. Going back to my happy thread. I like different opinions, I m just bored if they are expressed like this.

colleen o'neill · Feb 5, 2010

M-m-m-m crepes...baklava...

Joe, you're sort of right..about where I'm coming from..and sort of wrong. I was kind of trying to stay with one of the points I was originally making here , which was that there seems to be a more than usual number of skaters with musicality on the scene right now ; noticeably, from what I''ve been able to see, up and down the men's ranks.. and how this will make this Olympic year more than usually rich, for me..just sort of tangentially to the general discussion of what makes a musical skater.

Just a riff, not my general focus... so ,of course, I hadn't even mentioned some of my favourite examples..such as Buttle , or Sawyer..etc.,etc

janetfan · Feb 5, 2010

colleen o'neill said:
M-m-m-m crepes...baklava...

Joe, you're sort of right..about where I'm coming from..and sort of wrong. I was kind of trying to stay with one of the points I was originally making here , which was that there seems to be a more than usual number of skaters with musicality on the scene right now ; noticeably, from what I''ve been able to see, up and down the men's ranks.. and how this will make this Olympic year more than usually rich, for me..just sort of tangentially to the general discussion of what makes a musical skater.

Just a riff, not my general focus... so ,of course, I hadn't even mentioned some of my favourite examples..such as Buttle , or Sawyer..etc.,etc

Am curious - any clips of Oda showing "musicality"? It looks like his "Chaplin' is a clever attempt by Morozov to hide his lack of a line and to give him a personality. I feel the same way about Miki's programs. The choreo looks more like it is intended to hide weakness rather than show off strength.
Takhashi shows a much better line and more versastilty imo - but I have seen more of his programs than Oda.

Olympia · Feb 5, 2010

Confusing the issue is that in the U.S. at least, flamboyant is often used in a narrow sense as a kind of code word for a guy who's not straight and isn't shy about it. So that usage kind of gets away from the original meaning of the word, which is something like "flashy," as in the plumage of some birds. Isn't it interesting that even though the origin of the word lies in the French word for "flame," flamboyant and fiery do not have the same meaning.

In that larger, more general sense of the word, as you say, Madonna is a great example of flamboyance, as is Plushy. ("Flail arms--have golden hair--make girls scream = God"--hysterical description, Seniorita!) And, of course, Lady Gaga. Anyone who renames herself Lady Gaga is pretty definitely going for flamboyance! Las Vegas showgirls, with their feathered costumes, are the very definition of flamboyant.

For myself, I wouldn't use the word that often. Certainly Plushy embodies it, and some of the flashier costumes and skating styles of the ice dancers. But someone who's merely intensely dramatic isn't to me flamboyant. As you say, Colleen, something that is solemn, even if it's overdramatized, isn't flamboyant, at least in my book.

Hsuhs · Feb 5, 2010

Olympia said:
Confusing the issue is that in the U.S. at least, flamboyant is often used in a narrow sense as a kind of code word for a guy who's not straight and isn't shy about it.

Interesting. Over here gays are called gays.

colleen o'neill · Feb 5, 2010

Musical Oda ?

OK ,I'm going to try..c'mon Nobu..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chC_2LELM90&feature=related

Did that work?

:biggrin:

Ye-s-s-s..talk about teaching grannies to suck eggs.

janetfan · Feb 6, 2010

colleen o'neill said:
Musical Oda ?

OK ,I'm going to try..c'mon Nobu..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chC_2LELM90&feature=related

Did that work?

Yes, that works for me. Very nice skating and good expression.

Joesitz (RIP) · Feb 6, 2010

colleen o'neill said:
Musical Oda ?

OK ,I'm going to try..c'mon Nobu..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chC_2LELM90&feature=related

Did that work?

Check List
1. The body moves in the dramatic mode - not the braggart mode
2. He doesn't stop to pose and grimace at the audience
3. He is inside the character of Caravadossi at all times
4. His Timing is impecable - the legs do not miss a beat
5. His Tricks are dance steps and do not overshadow the dance.
6. His arms flow in accordance with the music and not for the sake of grabbing attention
7. His dramatic artistry is contained within the music and the character he is portraying

I think Pavorotti and Puccini would nod their heads in assent for that performance.

Lori Nichole v. Morozov are just two different approaches.

jennylovskt · Feb 7, 2010

Hsuhs said:
I saw it on Eurosport the other day. It's not in the flamboyant/ non-flamboyant range. It's gawd awful embarrassingly bad. Unique.

I have just watched Plushenko's Euro Ex. on Youtube. With the meaning I have in mind, I wouldn't call it flamboyant. I would call it powerful. But I don't really like it. I would prefer Plushenko's 2006 Olympics Ex.

colleen o'neill · Feb 7, 2010

Ah. The Braggart Mode .How succinct. That one will stay with me. :rolleye:

I like Joe's breakdown.

That's not to say though , that a musical skater might not also do the occasional "trick" trick or attention-grabbing arm movement, because the choreographer is responsible for their use in a program..but a non-musical skater would need to rely on them.

With Oda, you could see his musicality from the get go.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lk5ZeLaGHis&feature=PlayList&p=942FDDE2B08E1100&index=1

He can adapt so easily to any style of music or choreography and it just seems natural.
Dang ! The other night there was a program from wa-a-ay back in his career. I think it was 2002, or at most 2003 , and now I can't get it to come up.It must still be there, somewhere... maybe you can luck on to it if you try.He was very young, and the program was much more simple, but even though you could see he was having to focus more on his elements, you could also see that his body was ready to respond to the music at all times.

Joesitz (RIP) · Feb 7, 2010

colleen o'neill said:
Ah. The Braggart Mode .How succinct. That one will stay with me.

With Oda, you could see his musicality from the get go.

He can adapt so easily to any style of music or choreography and it just seems natural.
Dang ! The other night there was a program from wa-a-ay back in his career. I think it was 2002, or at most 2003 , and now I can't get it to come up.It must still be there, somewhere... maybe you can luck on to it if you try.He was very young, and the program was much more simple, but even though you could see he was having to focus more on his elements, you could also see that his body was ready to respond to the music at all times.

That is why I look at comps wherever I can to spot young talent who can dance on the ice. However, all my discoveries since 2002 do not hold up after a while.

In the words of Lermontov (The Red Shoes movie) he asked Victoria Page: Why do you want to dance, Miss Page? She answered with a question to him: Why do you want to live? Of course love got in the way of the dance. Tragic ending. Colleen, see the movie if you haven't already.

Music and Skating

schiele

janetfan

Match Penalty

seniorita

janetfan

Match Penalty

seniorita

jennylovskt

seniorita

Hsuhs

shine

seniorita

colleen o'neill

janetfan

Match Penalty

Olympia

Hsuhs

colleen o'neill

janetfan

Match Penalty

Joesitz (RIP)

jennylovskt

colleen o'neill

Joesitz (RIP)

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