Music and Skating

Layfan · Feb 2, 2010

colleen o'neill said:
Mirai's Carmen at US Nat.'s was wonderful, and I completely agree that you want expression, as opposed to none.:yes:
But I was thinking of say Jeremy's facial expression in his LP...subtle , but to my mind, expressive. It's with me to show emotion more strongly if the skater really feels it , or if they can make me think it's natural... So often it seems coached and used as a substitute for actually trying to feel the music. With women, I have a particular aversion to what I think of as "The Snarl of Passion". ..I think it originated with Bestemianova , and used to be observable only in Ice Dance....Now it's everywhere ; singles , pairs..I can't help imagining the poor kids gorming away into a mirror for hours, trying to perfect it.

( one of my bugaboos )

hahahaha!! got any links to the "snarl of passion? :laugh:

it's a tricky thing. Probably the key is to get the technique down and really learn you program. Only then can you start thinking about facial expressions and such.
I remember one too many times dancing and being so nervous that "facial expression" basically came down to plastering a jack-o-latern smile on my face until I left the stage. But that is why I was a total amateur and Michelle Kwan is star.

DesertRoad · Feb 2, 2010

There is no dichotomy between being a figure skater and a dancer, figure skating is absolutely one of the many, many forms of dancing there are. You can dance on a boat, you can dance on a goat. You can dance on a moat, you can dance on Paul Vogt. The confusion that comes in, I suspect, is because of the very thing the thread title is about: music. Let's face it, there are a lot, A LOT of successful skaters who aren't particularly musical.

Does this mean figure skating isn't a form of dancing, or a good form of it? Hell no! There are many other kinds of dance forms where musicality is not the priority. Watch a breakdancing competition, where tricks are prized. Or, ballroom competitions where couples seem to delight in using clashing music. I once saw this couple do a mambo or some such to an acapella rendition of the American anthem. It made no freaking sense musically. And then there's ballet. Oh yes, the hallowed form that's supposedly the ur-source of dancing. Classical ballet is a set of rigidly defined movement and angles, where toe points and exact extensions are paramount, and repetition is not only OK but necessary because there are only so many moves. To quote myself, "seeing dancers repeat a rond de jambe to the same three note motif in the score is as edifying as watching jazzercise". The emphasis on form and technique can overwhelm an honest expression of music in any dance style. Figure skating isn't alone in succumbing to that.

And now, an appraisal in defense of Michelle Kwan. No, Kwan was never the most graceful, flexible or powerful of skaters. But I do think she was one of the most musical skaters ever. It's in the nuance of her movement, her edging (an important part of expressing music in skating), and yes, her facial expressions. Facial expression absolutely does count in expressing music and mood. It's the loudest part of body language. Kwan has always been masterful at expressing the mood of the choreography and music. Her Salome was pleading, possessed and built tension until the final cathartic release. And that was just her start. Years later, I was fully sold on her ability as an interpreter of sound when she did her one and only performance of Miraculous Mandarin. There, she revived the seductress archetype, but with some actual sexuality, flaunting perverse joy in every flick of the wrist and seductive shoulder roll. The music built, and she mimed the death throes in perfect harmony to the disharmonious music. Even in her less dramatic outings, Kwan has always been one with the phrasing of the score. She may not have skated to the vast variety of moods music can create, but she skated to quite a few of them and did exceptionally well. I would absolutely call her a great dancer.

i love to skate · Feb 2, 2010

janetfan said:
That said, she did not display the type of versatilty that Oksana or Sasha did. I still wonder why we never saw Michelle cut loose to an uptempo jazz piece, or anything very syncopated?

I wonder why we never saw Michelle skate to a "Hernados Hideaway" or a "Don't Rain On My Parade"? Or some funk or uptempo Rock?

Probably because she didn't want to. Why did Sasha never skate to a country or R&B song? Michelle's exhibitions were all very different in my opinion. Do you think Sasha really showed any more versatility than Michelle? She used two up tempo exhibitions in her competitive career - HH and Don't Rain on My Parade. She also used that Romeo and Juliet exhibition piece for over three years....

janetfan said:
Some have said she used the same formula over and over, and aside from serious sounding classical music her only other choice was a pop ballad. And that is for a very long career. If she ever skated to a perky broadway tune I must have missed it. There must be a reason that Michelle never broke from her formula and I wondered if it was a lack of Dance skill. At the least, it makes one wonder about a lack of demonstrated versatility.

Here Michelle is skating to an R&B song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_c-4JdsroE

Skating to A Song for You by Natalie Cole:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4MbfKSX10I&feature=related

Skating to On My Own from Les Mis
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysu4x5-xU_k

Layfan · Feb 2, 2010

DesertRoad said:
There is no dichotomy between being a figure skater and a dancer, figure skating is absolutely one of the many, many forms of dancing there are. You can dance on a boat, you can dance on a goat. You can dance on a moat, you can dance on Paul Vogt. The confusion that comes in, I suspect, is because of the very thing the thread title is about: music. Let's face it, there are a lot, A LOT of successful skaters who aren't particularly musical.

Does this mean figure skating isn't a form of dancing, or a good form of it? Hell no! There are many other kinds of dance forms where musicality is not the priority. Watch a breakdancing competition, where tricks are prized. Or, ballroom competitions where couples seem to delight in using clashing music. I once saw this couple do a mambo or some such to an acapella rendition of the American anthem. It made no freaking sense musically. And then there's ballet. Oh yes, the hallowed form that's supposedly the ur-source of dancing. Classical ballet is a set of rigidly defined movement and angles, where toe points and exact extensions are paramount, and repetition is not only OK but necessary because there are only so many moves. To quote myself, "seeing dancers repeat a rond de jambe to the same three note motif in the score is as edifying as watching jazzercise". The emphasis on form and technique can overwhelm an honest expression of music in any dance style. Figure skating isn't alone in succumbing to that.

And now, an appraisal in defense of Michelle Kwan. No, Kwan was never the most graceful, flexible or powerful of skaters. But I do think she was one of the most musical skaters ever. It's in the nuance of her movement, her edging (an important part of expressing music in skating), and yes, her facial expressions. Facial expression absolutely does count in expressing music and mood. It's the loudest part of body language. Kwan has always been masterful at expressing the mood of the choreography and music. Her Salome was pleading, possessed and built tension until the final cathartic release. And that was just her start. Years later, I was fully sold on her ability as an interpreter of sound when she did her one and only performance of Miraculous Mandarin. There, she revived the seductress archetype, but with some actual sexuality, flaunting perverse joy in every flick of the wrist and seductive shoulder roll. The music built, and she mimed the death throes in perfect harmony to the disharmonious music. Even in her less dramatic outings, Kwan has always been one with the phrasing of the score. She may not have skated to the vast variety of moods music can create, but she skated to quite a few of them and did exceptionally well. I would absolutely call her a great dancer.

It's in the nuance of her movement, her edging (an important part of expressing music in skating)

This is something I wish I understood more. I'm sure I would understand it better if I knew how figure skaters trained ....

I think your description of why Michelle was so special was much more eloquent than mine. Don't know about your description of ballet though.

Ballet is a lot more dynamic than that. Choreography has only become more imaginative in the world of ballet in the past century. It's funny because I used to think figure skating was too rigid and was sort of stunted as a art form compared to ballet because it's a competitive Olympic sport and figure skating shows take a backseat. But I've since come to change my mind and appreciate the excitement and drama that being an Olympic sport gives to figure skating.

ankka · Feb 2, 2010

I think the main responsibility for combining skating and music is certainly that of the choreographer's. There are so many horrible examples of programs where the music and skating just don't meet.

This season my favourites when it comes to the good combinations (not necessarily shining in every element) are Miki's SP (it's so beautifully subtle in it's way of creating drama), Flatt's SP (first of all a great version of the song, then making it all match it perfectly, especially the steps) and Laura's LP (she definitely owes a big thank you for her choreographers for getting high PCS scores, they're amazing in combining Laura's way of moving to the music). For this quality these are among my very favourite programs of the year although all of the skaters have some problems with certain parts of skating, well Miki not so much.

DesertRoad · Feb 2, 2010

Layfan said:
This is something I wish I understood more. I'm sure I would understand it better if I knew how figure skaters trained ....

Oh, edging is easy to understand from an audience point of view. Just look at the skate blade on the ice and the various curves it traces, the angle it hits the ice, and its speed. The rest of a skater's movement sits entirely on top of that. A great example of edging and musicality is Daisuke Takahashi's circular step sequence in his SP this season. Perfect marriage of the two.

Layfan said:
I think your description of why Michelle was so special was much more eloquent than mine. Don't know about your description of ballet though. Ballet is a lot more dynamic than that. Choreography has only become more imaginative in the world of ballet in the past century. It's funny because I used to think figure skating was too rigid and was sort of stunted as a art form compared to ballet because it's a competitive Olympic sport and figure skating shows take a backseat. But I've since come to change my mind and appreciate the excitement and drama that being an Olympic sport gives to figure skating.

Modern dance does have a great deal more musical expression and variety. But I stand by my assessment of classical ballet.

Olympia · Feb 2, 2010

DesertRoad said:
And now, an appraisal in defense of Michelle Kwan. No, Kwan was never the most graceful, flexible or powerful of skaters. But I do think she was one of the most musical skaters ever. It's in the nuance of her movement, her edging (an important part of expressing music in skating), and yes, her facial expressions. Facial expression absolutely does count in expressing music and mood. It's the loudest part of body language. Kwan has always been masterful at expressing the mood of the choreography and music. Her Salome was pleading, possessed and built tension until the final cathartic release. And that was just her start. Years later, I was fully sold on her ability as an interpreter of sound when she did her one and only performance of Miraculous Mandarin. There, she revived the seductress archetype, but with some actual sexuality, flaunting perverse joy in every flick of the wrist and seductive shoulder roll. The music built, and she mimed the death throes in perfect harmony to the disharmonious music. Even in her less dramatic outings, Kwan has always been one with the phrasing of the score. She may not have skated to the vast variety of moods music can create, but she skated to quite a few of them and did exceptionally well. I would absolutely call her a great dancer.

I completely agree. I always felt that Michelle sksted from somewhere inside the music, rather than skating to the music. I don't say this because I'm a fan of hers; rather, it's the other way around. I became a fan because of the way she skates. She uses every skill she has in service of the music, and that makes her skating far more effective than the mere sum of its parts. I love Sasha's spiral, 180 degrees of perfection. But Michelle's spiral is beautiful in a different way, an embrace of the music and the audience. And of course there's the matter of her "boot down" skills, the precision of her stroking and footwork. Whatever Kwan has, few if any other skaters come close to it.

Layfan · Feb 2, 2010

i love to skate said:
Probably because she didn't want to. Why did Sasha never skate to a country or R&B song? Michelle's exhibitions were all very different in my opinion. Do you think Sasha really showed any more versatility than Michelle? She used two up tempo exhibitions in her competitive career - HH and Don't Rain on My Parade. She also used that Romeo and Juliet exhibition piece for over three years....

Here Michelle is skating to an R&B song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_c-4JdsroE

Skating to A Song for You by Natalie Cole:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4MbfKSX10I&feature=related

Skating to On My Own from Les Mis
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysu4x5-xU_k

Thanks, these are gorgeous and amazingly, I hadn't seen them before ...

First of all after seeing Michelle's beautiful spiral and very nice charlotte I feel compelled to say for the record that even though we have been describing Michelle as "not the most flexible" skater, we should member that even though Sasha and other are more stretchy than her, Michelle was in fact quite a flexible person.

Second of all, it's all subjective but I'm not sure the videos really convinced me that Michelle was as versatile as dancer or more versatile than Sasha. Not sure I see a whole lot of R&B there ... just a whole lot of Michelle. Not to say it that isn't wonderful because it is.

But Sasha did Romeo and Juliet. And she also did Rihana. And her skating _ the way she moves _ not just the music, is very different in those two pieces.... Michelle developed just one way of moving ... the Michelle way :love:

Olympia · Feb 2, 2010

i love to skate said:
Here Michelle is skating to an R&B song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_c-4JdsroE

Skating to A Song for You by Natalie Cole:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4MbfKSX10I&feature=related

Skating to On My Own from Les Mis
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysu4x5-xU_k

Oh, my--"On My Own" is astounding. For those of you who haven't looked at it yet, it's an exhibition that Kwan skated shortly after the 1998 Olympics, when she won the silver behind Tara Lipinski. I know that Lipinski did a fine job at the Olympics, but when I see this program and realize that the judges passed over skating like this, where a character comes alive in a way that Meryl Streep would be proud of, I'm simply flabbergasted. I don't know about you, but ask me which I would rather watch--this, or a triple-triple...I know what I'd answer. That ending pose; wow.

I don't know whether I could define what makes a musical skater, but I know it when I see it. It's a quality that makes a skater seem more alive than other skaters. More than that, it's a quality that makes me more alive as I'm watching it.

BlackAxel · Feb 2, 2010

Michelle was definitely not the most flexible skater, but she did have this unique skill of entrancing the audience with her emotions and her obvious passion and love for skating. To a lesser extent, Sasha was able to wow the audience with the positions that she was able to contort her body into. Personally, while I am a fan of Sasha, I really do believe that her uber-flexibilty is what enhanced her programs. Even in her beautiful spirals she was never able to achieve the deep edges and speed that Michelle had. IMO, both skaters skated WITH the music rather than skating TO the music though.

And I am so happy that someone mentioned Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze before. Ever since SLC and the whole drama that emitted, B/S have not received their rightful recognition for being one of the most unique and beautiful pair skaters that they are. Their pefromance to "City Lights " and their exhibition "The Kid" should be included in the vault of the best figure skating performances!

colleen o'neill · Feb 3, 2010

As a dance person , I had to learn to appreciate the edge and speed components of a spiral as well as position and extension.( It took a few years..) So I was glad when PJ Kwong pointed out the absolutely steady ,sure edge ( and change of edge ) of Suzuki's spiral at 4CC..and you know she's fast.commentators don't always point that out, but always rave over extension. It' gorgeous when a skater has a killer extension to top it off, but it's not everything. Michelle had a bit of both.

Speaking of spirals, I notice some women grab their toe or the front of their blade in the side extension..I hate this as much as the I-spin.

DesertRoad,you need to broaden your ballet horizons. It sounds like you've just been watching exercises at the barre..

..Anyway I think we were mostly touting ballet here as a foundation for other things...Skating too, has it's limitations... :laugh:

No beats. No fouettes, petite batons, cabriolles..( Thank God.Think of the blood on the ice.)

DesertRoad · Feb 3, 2010

Those classical ballet stage shows are basically barre exercises with makeup and lighting. Zzz. Formalism is a dead end for creativity.

Skating has plenty of formalist strictures, too. But it still has enough room for competitors to skate to everything from Bollywood to Cypress Hill, so I find the more stifling parts of skating easier to gloss over.

Layfan · Feb 3, 2010

DesertRoad said:
Oh, edging is easy to understand from an audience point of view. Just look at the skate blade on the ice and the various curves it traces, the angle it hits the ice, and its speed. The rest of a skater's movement sits entirely on top of that. A great example of edging and musicality is Daisuke Takahashi's circular step sequence in his SP this season. Perfect marriage of the two.

Modern dance does have a great deal more musical expression and variety. But I stand by my assessment of classical ballet.

Re edging: Oh, is that all? :laugh:

I still wish I could watch skating with skaters more often to really appreciate edge work but I feel like I'm getting better ... slowly. Anyway, this is so far the nicest explanation I've had. Maybe I'll post it to my television. Thanks!

Re ballet: Guess it depends on what you consider ballet and what you consider modern dance. I think the line between the two is increasingly blurred. Enjoy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43z3aQspFtc

and you can't get much farther to Swan Lake than this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Sod77_kwTo&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMI-Ewc9pQw&feature=related

janetfan · Feb 3, 2010

i love to skate said:
Here Michelle is skating to an R&B song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_c-4JdsroE

Skating to A Song for You by Natalie Cole:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4MbfKSX10I&feature=related

]

Sorry but musically speaking the R&B is average at best - then again , who knows how much time she may have spent on it?

The ballad, where Michelle is more theatrical seems more effective. It is nice to watch but looks like a more relaxed version of her competitive style of skating.

The Broadway show tune - surprise, surprise - another ballad.

It might be fair to say Sasha showed similar qualities in her competitive skating and exhibition programs too. Maybe all skaters do.

Not much versatility in these clips but I didin't mean to make such an issue of that. Michelle probably selected music that had meaning to her on a personal level - maybe the lyrics as much as the music.

"On My Own" does not grab me - if anything it still makes me wonder why she left Carroll and Lori a few months before SLC ?

I agree with an earlier comment - Michelle was not a dancer, she was a figure skater. A great and beautifully expressive skater with a long illustrious career.

ETA: I think it speaks volumes about Michelle's character - that she was supportive of Sasha's return and identified with the struggle. It is easy for me to call Michelle the "Kween" :love:

i love to skate · Feb 3, 2010

Layfan said:
But Sasha did Romeo and Juliet. And she also did Rihana. And her skating _ the way she moves _ not just the music, is very different in those two pieces.... Michelle developed just one way of moving ... the Michelle way

I really don't see Sasha being versatile - she skated to Rhianna in her professional career yes - but during her competitive career it was two broadwayish tunes, a couple ballads, and Romeo and Juliet. I don't see anymore versatility there Michelle displayed. That being said, I don't think a skater needs to be versatile in their music choices - especially in exhibitions.

janetfan · Feb 3, 2010

i love to skate said:
I really don't see Sasha being versatile - she skated to Rhianna in her professional career yes - but during her competitive career it was two broadwayish tunes, a couple ballads, and Romeo and Juliet. I don't see anymore versatility there Michelle displayed. That being said, I don't think a skater needs to be versatile in their music choices - especially in exhibitions.

Sasha used completely different interpretive styles between "Romeo and Juliet" and "Don't Rain On My Parade." I think anybody can see how clearly different her movements and expression are in those two pieces. I think Michelle used a more similar style regardless of the music. I could be wrong about that - but also don't see it as one skater having better interpretive skill. They were different. I don't think anyone could ever confuse Michelle with Sasha.

We were lucky to have both of them and doubt if we will see anyone like them again for a long time.

i love to skate · Feb 3, 2010

janetfan said:
Sasha used completely different interpretive styles between "Romeo and Juliet" and "Don't Rain On My Parade." I think anybody can see how clearly different her movements and expression are in those two pieces. I think Michelle used a more similar style regardless of the music. I could be wrong about that - but also don't see it as one skater having better interpretive skill. They were different. I don't think anyone could ever confuse Michelle with Sasha.

We were lucky to have both of them and doubt if we will see anyone like them again for a long time.

I meant her exhibitions on a whole were not that varied. Obviously, Romeo and Juliet and Don't Rain On My Parade were different.

Olympia · Feb 3, 2010

i love to skate said:
I really don't see Sasha being versatile - she skated to Rhianna in her professional career yes - but during her competitive career it was two broadwayish tunes, a couple ballads, and Romeo and Juliet. I don't see anymore versatility there Michelle displayed. That being said, I don't think a skater needs to be versatile in their music choices - especially in exhibitions.

Versatility is all very well, but a lot of the best skaters stick within a narrow spectrum of musical expression and still manage to knock us over. Paul Wylie is a sterling example. He tended to skate to noble, impassioned music, usually a movie sound track like Henry V or Apollo 13. But he made it fresh and compelling every time. It isn't always range that makes for greatness: it's power and subtlety within that range.

I had a thought last night. You could compare Sasha and Michelle to voices. Sasha, with her gorgeous extensions (rather flashy, but in a good way) and ethereal presence, is like a soprano, maybe even a coloratura. Michelle is more like a mezzo or even a contralto: smooth, warm, deep, completely solid yet sinuous.

Layfan · Feb 3, 2010

Olympia said:
Versatility is all very well, but a lot of the best skaters stick within a narrow spectrum of musical expression and still manage to knock us over. Paul Wylie is a sterling example. He tended to skate to noble, impassioned music, usually a movie sound track like Henry V or Apollo 13. But he made it fresh and compelling every time. It isn't always range that makes for greatness: it's power and subtlety within that range.

I had a thought last night. You could compare Sasha and Michelle to voices. Sasha, with her gorgeous extensions (rather flashy, but in a good way) and ethereal presence, is like a soprano, maybe even a coloratura. Michelle is more like a mezzo or even a contralto: smooth, warm, deep, completely solid yet sinuous.

I love that comparison! I love watching them both and I can never choose between the two. I guess I don't really have to.

shine · Feb 3, 2010

colleen o'neill said:
Good points, janetfan/B] . .

I think where we sometimes go wrong is by confusing facial expression with musicality. Maybe we need to recognize that it's possible to emote with the body as well as the face. What a skater's feeling, emotionally, may have a more subtle expression on the face and still move me because of their overall expression, but no amount of facial contortion can move me if the skater is not interpreting the music with his/her body.

Since you mention Jeremy , let's just take him as an example .( Though there are many others) He feels the music with his whole body..and not just each beat , but every 1/2 and 1/4 beat in between, so that his movements fill all of the music, and if he moves into half time, or double time, or some little syncopation, he can always come smoothly and perfectly back into time. All of the music is used. Watching him, we experience the music fully through his movements.

Some skaters have this ability naturally , some might have gained it through some form of dance training ( or Gymnastics , or whatever).. it can be taught , to a degree. Those who are naturally gifted will probably always be better , but anyone can improve. I'm just talking about being one with the music here, apart from position, line etc.

E.G. In adult recreational dance classes , you can often see results immediately, when students learn to use that.. "AND"..before the beat..breathe in on the AND, begin...if they're jumpimg , knee bend on the AND, spring..arm movements, slight lift of the arm or reverse motion AND,begin..Eventually many will be using it on their own without being reminded, and their overall musicality improves.

The "It" factor can add an extra dimension...but it just annoys me when it's all used in the promotion of the skater and the program becomes incidental. Plushenko is the major offender here. Amazing athlete..programs bore me to tears. It all looks the same and they're all about " I'm #1..I can moonwalk..I can stand still and wiggle my pelvis."..what a waste of a phenomenal talent.

I totally love this post. Thanks so much for it.

And I really enjoyed your take on Abbott's musicality. I love Lambiel and Abbott the most out of any skater, because to me they are the most musical dancers. Watching them brings SO much joy to me. A lot of times I find myself rewinding to watch parts of their program just for a simple move they did, such an arm movement, a tilt of the head, or a stretched neck. Lambiel's style tends to be more outwardly theatrical and emotional and Abbott tends to be more introverted, or "cerebral", as someone recently stated. But neither of them misses a beat and phrases the music with their entire body. Being musical really is the most important thing to me when it comes to enjoying a skater. And for some reason, these truly musical skater also tend to have awesome skating skills. Somehow they go hand in hand.

And I totally disagree with whoever said that Jeremy needs to be totally clean for one to enjoy his performance. That is so not true. I loved him way back when he was still this super inconsistent second-tier skater skating to Mozart and the Masquerade Waltz. Just for his astounding musicality. So eye-opening.

Music and Skating

Layfan

DesertRoad

i love to skate

Layfan

ankka

DesertRoad

Olympia

Layfan

Olympia

BlackAxel

colleen o'neill

DesertRoad

Layfan

janetfan

Match Penalty

i love to skate

janetfan

Match Penalty

i love to skate

Olympia

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