Music and Skating

The three skaters I mentioned: Nobunari, Abbott and Brezina are all skating as if they were dancing. The other skaters mentioned on the thread are fine competitors, but seem to follow the choreographer's instruction and do not add anything of themselves. It has nothing to do with championships, medals, and facial expressions.

Kozuka is a very nice lyrical skater but can he, in competition, show drama and joy with his body? It's not required in competition except to grimace when showing a tragedy and at the end of the performance Judges are not that strict on interpretation.

Takahashi is very adaptable to the beat of the music but his body is always careful not to miss an element. I do like his skating, and it will get better in time. I think he may well podium in vancouver.

Xue Shen is the most musical skater in competition and imo, the only lady with superb body language.

Nobunari's Tosca by Lori Nichol is a gem and much better than the cutesy Chaplin but Nobi knows how to entertain in a variety of music.

colleen o'neill said:

But I want to toot the horn for Takahashi just a little more...He's so fluid..all of his arm movements are part of the whole movement of his body, no movement is stuck on to give him something to do with his arms , or from another point of veiw, to give the audience something to look at while the skater's just stroking. Of course, he's very different from Jeremy. He's completely flamboyant . I don't know if another skater has epitomized that word so well since Toller Cranston, (except for Weir,of course).If that's not what floats your boat..it's just not. But I always feel the music is dictating his movements when I watch him. That he's just surrendering himself to wherever the music takes him.( Or maybe throwing himself onboard for the ride.)

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Daisuke's flamboyant? I believe this is the 1st time I read he's that. Not that I object, just news to me. I thought Johnny owned 'flamboyant', of the current crop.

Really? You never noticed that Takahashi is flamboyant? He isn't subtle. You may want to have your flambometer recalibrated next time you go to the shop.

DesertRoad said:

Really? You never noticed that Takahashi is flamboyant? He isn't subtle. You may want to have your flambometer recalibrated next time you go to the shop.

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Nope, never noticed that. I thought he developed into a very good actor since early 2000, feels music and his own body better, and simply has grown up.
I had a brief chat with him once, and didn't find him flamboyant either. Is it possible I don't get what flamboyant means.

I do agree that Takahashi is very flamboyant. For me, he has always been a more interesting version of Weir, or better..

I love both Takahashi and Weir, partly because they're both so flamboyant and theatrical. If anything, I find Takahashi more extravagantly flamboyant in his skating performances, at least until this season, when Weir brought a little more camp with his SP and his Poker Face exhibition. To me, Weir has always luxuriated in clean, elegant lines both in his body and his edges. The Swan, for all its gender boundary transgressions, is actually a very understated program. Takahashi, on the other hand, always went after it like a glam rock superstar, with the sleeves, the hair, the wrist flicks, and of course, his impossibly detailed footwork.

Flambometer...:

flamboyant ;- the applicable meaning from the OD (That's Oxford Dictionary, not Original Dance ) would be..florid , gorgeous....not necessarily the part that reads.. marked with wavy lines.... Although, if we take his SP costume into account....So, I might as easily have said "showy" to express myself. And I was referring to his performance style. His style of movement..sort of "Let me wow you!" I don't think a skater without an innate musicality could possibly handle choreography as intricate, even baroque, as his and still keep it so fluid. His timing is wonderful..which comes from feeling the music.

I know exactly what Joe means, and I've complained about it in regard to many skaters , but I don't feel that way about Daisuke.

Now, Joe had to mention Lori Nichol's choreography for Nobu....I'm grieving that he doesn't have choreography worthy of him this year. He is always entertaining..It's just that I (selfishly) always want to see my favourite skaters have vehicles that make it possible for them to be at their best. His SP - arrrrghh! don't start me..

****

WAIT! WAIT! ..I'm just adding on here, since I was the last to post anyway..

I'm just killing myself laughing at myself... I feel like the old, old Certs commercial "Stop,Stop ! you're both right."... Bit of background : When Takahashi first appeared on the international scene, I thought "now there's potential" , but I had a lot of other faves to focus on, including Takeshi Honda ( who,BTW, I always considered to be very musical ). Up until his injury, I recognized Daisuke's ability , but he was, frankly, a bit off my radar...When he came back this year, I was instantly impressed with both his musicality and his programs. I was thrilled, and hadn't really felt that strongly about him before ..When I checked out the "He ain't subtle" photo up thread, I realized..I'd completely forgotten he was with Morozov in the interim!! (The costume screamed it!) I have such a low opinion of the man..as a choreographer, among other things...I had just blocked that out!

I do like Camerlengo's choreography, and Kenzi Miyamoto?..where has he been ? It's not just because they're more imaginative choreographers ( they are ) , a lot of it has to do with the fact that I feel they allow his natural ability, and musicality, to shine through .
I went back to Youtube , and all became clear..2002- you can see the musicality under the baby surface..2004 - (Tarasova) programs ..meh , costumes..meh...But he does move well...2005,on - (Morozov ) Here you really begin to see flailing arms... same, same Yagudin-esque programs , over-the -top, mostly tacky costumes. He still moves well , but I can entirely see Joe's POV if I look at these years. ( Somebody please get Nobu away from this guy.)

Now, I think I differ from Joe only in that I don't think we have to wait for a breakthrough, or further development. I think it's here , now. His light was just hidden under Morozov's bushel. Even his costumes are a huge improvement. Yes, they're still flamboyant, but so-o-o much more beautifully constructed and they have what looks like a Japanese stylistic flair ( sometimes wild, but tasteful )..I'll bet he had some input,or at least a vote..

I'm off to try to check out his designer.

colleen o'neill said:

But Daisuke doesn't strike you as musical ? I agree his choreography is very full and intricate , but only an extremely musical skater could handle it.

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I don't believe Takahashi is naturally musical. He can react well to music but I don't feel it's innate; it's more like he has to tell himself what to do. He does have good choreo on some of his programs which plays to his strengths, but I wouldn't have him up there with the truly musical skaters, like Lambiel or Abbott.

jennylovskt said:

I have to say that I have never done this on Lambiel's programs even though I like Lambiel's musicality too. But I admit that I did it with Joubert's 2009 Worlds Ex. number. There were several movements he did soooo beautifully.

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I think Brian is underrated in this respect. He isn't the most graceful guy on the ice, but with the right piece of music and when he's emotionally into the performance, he can be really good.

seniorita said:

Stephan has chosen so many diffrent types of music and he puts his personal mark in every one of them, i think he is on a different planet than the rest.

Dont you think Buttle was musical?

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I wouldn't say Stephane is the most musical current skater because I do believe Abbott is exceptional in this area as well, but Stephane has the best combination of musicality and ability to project to the audience among current skaters. At least among the men, anyway.

Someone said Buttle isn't musical? Seriously?

No, nobody said it, i just asked if Buttle is considered musical because I m not sure I know what it meansl! I mean i know what the word means, i dont get exactly what people consider musical.
I think apart from objectivity it is a personal taste as well, because I would say Stephan is exceptional instead of Abott, Jeremmy has something in his posture that I dont get. Of course this is just me. Stephan is like a swan for me.
I agree about Brian and one has to find his own style in music to get into it, but I m not sure also I consider it the alpha and omega of a skater alone, cause I can watch 'you know who' moving to an unknown russian song all day.

Stephane Lambiel is an exceptionally musical skater ahead of just about everybody. To wit, his exhibition number to "Ne Me Quitte Pas":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3S6f3_daB4

It's quite a challenging piece of music to skate to, a piano ballad filled with subtle complexities in dynamics and tempo. Lambiel moves to it as if every nuance in the song is ingrained in him, like a lens through which sound becomes motion. Awe-inspiring.

DesertRoad said:

Stephane Lambiel is an exceptionally musical skater ahead of just about everybody. To wit, his exhibition number to "Ne Me Quitte Pas":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3S6f3_daB4

It's quite a challenging piece of music to skate to, a piano ballad filled with subtle complexities in dynamics and tempo. Lambiel moves to it as if every nuance in the song is ingrained in him, like a lens through which sound becomes motion. Awe-inspiring.

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I agree and when I think of an "artist on the ice" it is Lambiel who comes to mind first.

Here is Plushy's Gala skate from Euros. He is expressing the music but in a theatrical style. It is expressive skating but very different from the type of artistry Lambiel shows. It is more about what is happening from the "ankle up."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVbybJ9tuJY


Here is Joubert's Gala - not sure how to classify this other than to say it reminds me of going to a disco club and watching alot of bad dancing. It is just a Gala skate and probably what his fans expect from him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2wjVmz333w

We can all have different opinions about what is musical and what is artistic.
Some may prefer the ethereal qualities of Lambiel, others relate better to Plushy's dramatic theatrical style and some like the flashy tehno style of Joubert.

colleen o'neill said:

Flambometer...:

I know exactly what Joe means, and I've complained about it in regard to many skaters , but I don't feel that wayNow, Joe had to mention Lori Nichol's choreography for Nobu....I'm grieving that he doesn't have choreography worthy of him this year. He is always entertaining..It's just that I (selfishly) always want to see my favourite skaters have vehicles that make it possible for them to be at their best. His SP - arrrrghh! don't start me..

****

WAIT! WAIT! ..I'm just adding on here, since I was the last to post anyway..

I'm just killing myself laughing at myself... I feel like the old, old Certs commercial "Stop,Stop ! you're both right."... Bit of background : When Takahashi first appeared on the international scene, I thought "now there's potential" , but I had a lot of other faves to focus on, including Takeshi Honda ( who,BTW, I always considered to be very musical ). Up until his injury, I recognized Daisuke's ability , but he was, frankly, a bit off my radar...When he came back this year, I was instantly impressed with both his musicality and his programs. I was thrilled, and hadn't really felt that strongly about him before ..When I checked out the "He ain't subtle" photo up thread, I realized..I'd completely forgotten he was with Morozov in the interim!! (The costume screamed it!) I have such a low opinion of the man..as a choreographer, among other things...I had just blocked that out!

I do like Camerlengo's choreography, and Kenzi Miyamoto?..where has he been ? It's not just because they're more imaginative choreographers ( they are ) , a lot of it has to do with the fact that I feel they allow his natural ability, and musicality, to shine through .
I went back to Youtube , and all became clear..2002- you can see the musicality under the baby surface..2004 - (Tarasova) programs ..meh , costumes..meh...But he does move well...2005,on - (Morozov ) Here you really begin to see flailing arms... same, same Yagudin-esque programs , over-the -top, mostly tacky costumes

. He still moves well , but I can entirely see Joe's POV if I look at these years. ( Somebody please get Nobu away from this guy.)

Now, I think I differ from Joe only in that I don't think we have to wait for a breakthrough, or further development. I think it's here , now. His light was just hidden under Morozov's bushel. Even his costumes are a huge improvement. Yes, they're still flamboyant, but so-o-o much more beautifully constructed and they have what looks like a Japanese stylistic flair ( sometimes wild, but tasteful )..I'll bet he had some input,or at least a vote..

I'm off to try to check out his designer.

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Coleen. The difference between us is that you are speaking of skaters more competitively than musically
I watch new novice skaters as well as juniors and I watch skaters on youtube who are not 'stars' I look for 1.Flow; 2. Rhythm; 3. Line; and when I watch competitions for a winner, I look at Tricks. All that is measureable. Opinions of taste is personal and can not be measured.

Takahashi is an excellent top tier skater. His musicality is adequate. He has Flow and his tricks are big! But I do not see much of his soul other than his eagerness to win a competition. Imo he does not have that "artistry" which is so much battered around the Forum.

S/Z on the other hand do not make an issue of the big tricks. Their tricks are really moves of the dance on skates.

I could go on about each skater and team, but the difference between us is that I am talking about figure skating and you seem to be involved in competitions. No problem. I understand.

Just to refresh my memory, I went back to YouTube and watched Shen and Zhao's Turandot 2003 Worlds program. I don't know if I could give a description of what musicality is, but I know I just saw it in action. From the moment she looks at him as the music starts, the lightning strikes. That first lift, where he turns her in his hands as he lifts her, is just riveting, and it builds from there.

It's interesting that when we first saw this couple, they looked so unglamorous. The guy isn't exactly Jet Li. He looks as if he would move like a computer technician. The girl is pretty tall for a pairs skater, and she's not a wispy ballerina. She looks like the older, unmarried daughter who would take care of the aging parents at home. Then she gives him that eye, and he wafts her into the air, and they're one of the love teams of the century. He's Clark Gable, and she's as mysterious and beautiful as Garbo. At the end of the clip I saw, they quoted him (through the translator) saying that he wanted to melt their medals into one and give the single medal to her. Well, that's what they showed on the ice. Perhaps the honesty of their emotions is one of the elements that creates musicality? All I know is that every time I see the two of them skate, I think of that moment in Pearl Buck's The Good Earth, where the man turns to his wife and says, "O-Lan, you are the earth." That's the kind of emotional reaction that the best music often gives me. Maybe that's how I tell if a skater is musical. It's not a precise test, I admit.

Flamboyant is definitely not my cup of tea. It turns me off. I prefer the young Johnny Weir a lot better. I agree Takahashi is very musical, and like his skating sometimes. I appreciate a lot of skaters' musicality in general. But it could be just a particular performance of a skater which could make me fall in love with. The same skater might not strike me at all in the next performance or next music choice.

flamboyant means something like a dramaqueen?

To me, flamboyant means a man dresses and acts like a woman.

So how do you account for flamboyant women?

gkelly said:

So how do you account for flamboyant women?

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Is there really so much difficulty in understanding the meaning of the word "flamboyant"?

A quick thought is that this word is neither negative or positive.

Watch Laura skate and then Kiira. One's skating style might be considered more flamboyant than the other.

Miki is an interesting one to consider. For me the way she skates is not necessarily flamboyant but her costumes might be another matter.

Takahashi to me seems flamboyant while Oda does not - but I like them both.

Part of how we might look at this is by the way a skater dresses and by observing their personalities.

Johnny seems to have a flamboyant personality and likes to attract attention to himself with his outfits. But on the whole his skating seems much less flamboyant than his costumes.

It is a matter of taste and there is good flamboynat (Sasha) and bad flamboyant (Kevin).
But it is very subjective.

well it is for me at least difficult, I looked dictionary

Etymology: French, from present participle of flamboyer to flame, from Old French, from flambe
Date: 1832
- often capitalized : characterized by waving curves suggesting flames <flamboyant tracery> <flamboyant architecture>
- marked by or given to strikingly elaborate or colorful display or behavior <a flamboyant performer>
- Highly elaborate; ornate.
- Richly colored; resplendent.
- Architecture Of, relating to, or having wavy lines and flamelike forms characteristic of 15th- and 16th-century French Gothic architecture.
- Given to ostentatious or audacious display.

So while I can understand what these sentences mean, I cannot apply it to any skater's style. If you say Weir is the example, I will apply the terms of dictionary on Weir.

Flambé so far I have appplied it in crêpes.