SC photo shoot pictures- from "V" Magazine

It is apparent to me that many do not understand why this photo shoot is disturbing. Those who are posting about there reactions seem to fall into three categories - those who like the photos and enjoy the message, those who are fans of Sasha and wish to give her the freedom to do as she chooses without condemnation, and those who understand the meaning behind the imagery of the shoot who are disturbed. I belong to the later category, and would like to provide information to those of you who are missing the point as to why many are upset. The shoot is a message as a whole, to those who understand the language. And believe the audience this magazine is trying to capture will understand the message. The first picture creates an image. The poster who identified the purpose of those shoes is accurate. They are a specific article of paraphanalia, that is embedded with meaning this is sexually demeaning to women. I will not describe in words what it is because I don't want to attach those ideas with Sasha, and because youngsters frequent these boards. But if you are of age and want to know, just take that picture into any bar and show it to a group of men and they will be glad to tell you. The rest of the pictures taken in isolation would not necessarily connote the meaning. I have become aware that most of you on these boards don't recognize what you're seeing. The best analogy I could give that will be easily recognized by all is if they took a picture of Sasha with a bong in her mouth, in her R&J dress, and then took a series of pictures of her in various poses in strage looking states of consciousness - but no one knew the significance of a bong - and posters were commenting on the odd and artsy device the photographer was using to show how full and beautiful her lips were. I am not a pervert who is into these things but I am quite knowledgeable about those who are. The pictures are sexualized, not sexy. These are yet another example of sexualizing a womans body to sell something - magazines in this case. These photos were not taken to win a photography prize, they were taken to sell V magazine. Now, I know Sasha is 19 and she is entitled to do what she wants, but when she does it publically she invites us all to have the reactions they create in us. She is doing nothing that isn't all around us today, and yes many models do it, hollywood stars participate and its all over our magazine shelves - many are so desensitized, or its all they've grown up with, that they don't even mind using female bodies for fame and profit, and join the party. So be it. But how sad for women and our society, and it is offensive to me and many others. Publicity like this does create noteriaty as it gets people talking, and if Sasha wants to bring that to the world of eligible skating then fine. It did occur to me though as I read so many of the innocent posts on this board that maybe Sasha really did not know what these photogrphers were setting her up for. If that's true she should sue them - if she has any standing to do so. If she did know, and supports her participation in the implications therein, then I have lost interest in her as a skater, and fear for the image she will set for youngsters who admire and adore her.

Well said Kathy. Through her endorsment deal with the Beef Council she did spots that were geared to young girls. I have even shown those to my elementary school aged Girl Scouts when we were studying nutrition. Some of them have become big fans of Sasha's. Frankly if one of their parents came to me with some of these pictures they would sure as heck have some questions as to what I had exposed their child to.

I believe if you set yourself up as a role model for young girls that you should make sure that anything that has your name/image attached to it is something that is age appropriate for that audience. It could be the veiw that I am seeing these photos from on the internet, but in three(?) of them the center of the photo is a "crotch shot". I asked several of my friends their opinions and we are by no means prudish, backward, or unsophisticated as hinted at elswhere in this thread. They all agreed that the pictures were not appropriate PR for a role model for young girls. Now if Sasha wants to have nude photos taken for her personal use, fine she's a consenting adult. But if those photos are accessible to her fans, many who are youngs/boys then IMO it is irresponsible, inappropriate, and she is being a poor role model.

Piel

I showed the pics to my hockey player buds (all guys) who're they're as crude as they come. They didn't find them to be sexy at all; many didn't even think they were provocative. From guys that could oogle pretty much anyone, said she was beautiful, but didn't think the pics were porny.

Kathy -- thanks for taking the time to explain your objections to the photos, and with such intensity! You did help me to understand why many viewers would find these images upsetting.

I have found this thread to be particularly fascinating due to the widely varying responses that the photos have elicited -- and perhaps because in my own case, I didn't have a strong response to them to begin with! That's made it a little easier, perhaps, for me to stand back a bit and appreciate others' points of view.

One important thing to remember, I believe, is that we all bring our own experiences to bear when apprehending a work of art, commercial or otherwise. The photographer and subjects' intent, and the meaning that they seek to convey, enter a dynamic interaction with each viewer and the experiences, expectations and biases called forth by that individual. In that way, the photo can function as a litmus test of sorts. Many artists seek to be deliberately provocative in an attempt to promote a strong reaction. This can have a cheapening effect, but it is quite commonly used in commercial applications because it helps to get the message noticed. I don't look at high fashion magazines anymore, so I don't know whether this imagery is as prevalent these days, but high-fashion photos used to use many images of women in bondage situations. Images borrowed directly from the world of sadomasochistic porn, if you understood what you were looking at. Obviously, to a rape victim such images would be violently upsetting. I had a friend who volunteered with a group called WAVAW, or Women Against Violence Against Women (this was around 1980?) who presented slideshows of back-to-back porn and fashion shots to make the point.

Certainly the photos in question are tame by comparison, but I would have to agree with you, Kathy, when you say that they are sexualized as opposed to sexy. I think that Rgirl is saying something similar when she complains that the photos don't seem to capture Sasha's true sexuality. I would say that the photos, rather than seeking to reveal, merely apply a false veneer of sexuality based on the cultural norms of fashion photography. In this way, they disappoint me as art, and fail to move me. But I also don't find them shocking or disturbing, probably because they fall well within those norms. Perhaps I'm simply inured! If I were a mother, or worked closely with a group of young women, I might be more sensitive.

I do want to ask you, Kathy and Piel, (and anyone else that finds Sasha's V photos disturbing), which bothers you more? Is it the fact that images like these are so ubiquitous in society, or is it the fact that Sasha has in some sense lent her credibility to them? Do you believe she has responsibilities as a role model -- responsiblities which would include not pursuing something that captured her interest and imagination, if it might be upsetting to some, or perceived as a possible negative influence?

Earlier in this thread I related how Richard Avedon's photo of Nastasia Kinski had a powerful, and I believe powerfully positive effect on me at an impressionable age. I'm very curious as to whether Sasha's photos from the V photoshoot have had a powerful effect on younger viewers. If there are any teenage SashaFans reading this -- please let us know! Do you think that these photos send a positive or negative message to young people?

Here's a quote from Sasha's journal that sheds some light on her view of the photo shoot. If you're worrying about her buying into this bondage version of herself, she didn't see all the pictures and didn't see the layout until the magazine came out. The rest of it sounds like she was thrilled with the high fashion clothes, makeup and hair advice, and the fact that Brittany Spears was doing a shoot at the same time.
Pretty innocent-on her part anyway.

One of the first photos shot was with me in high heels bending over and trying hard to keep my balance. I was on my very tiptoe and doing everything I could to keep my balance. There was another picture with strips of cloth used and we were trying to figure out how to make them flow. We tried some spins and found that worked best to get the effect wanted.

We did get to look at a few of the pictures while we were there. We didn’t get to see everything and didn’t know what was going to be picked out. The photographer said he would have to take a closer look at them at the studio. I didn’t know what was used until I saw the magazine layout.

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Personally, there is more than a whiff of bondage about these shots. And worse. So the evidence of the hockey guys reassures me about the average hockey guy--it's nice to know that this stuff is not the average hockey joe's average turnon. But that makes the whole schema darker. And as Kathy, Piel and Rgirl have discussed, part of the larger picture of fashion photography and high fashion standard (scarier still) stock of imagery.
On a lighter note, I really would like to know what the intent was supposed to be of the two pictures that look to me like Sasha is a spokesmodel for newspaper recycling though.

Doris P

Where is the bondage photo? LOL If it's the one in heels, c'mon people, that's NOT bondage! I have a friend who is a bondage photographer and believe me, that's not bondage! If her ankles were bound by rope or even a scarf, I'd say, ok, that's bondage, but the way it is shot, it's just a girl in a skating dress and heels.

.....off to see if I can find his site; I don't think I bookmarked it. He did a cover of Secret Magazine a couple of years back....

Editing, and here's the site: http://lightworship.com/ The picture on the homepage should be enough to clue you in on the fact that Sasha's pics are not even close to the definition of bondage (unless you've been living in a bubble for the last 40 years).

BTW, does anyone here subscribe to, or regularly purchase fashion mags? If you do, you'll see pictures like Sasha's are completely normal for layouts. And if you're offended by these photos, I'm assuming your children do not ever wear skating dresses, heels, tights, or leotards. ??

Sasha's more covered in these photos than many skaters are on competition ice!

giseledepkat,

Thanks for your input, very well stated. I appreciate the thought behind your post and the questions you ask are indeed valid.
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Do you believe she has responsibilities as a role model -- responsiblities which would include not pursuing something that captured her interest and imagination, if it might be upsetting to some, or perceived as a possible negative influence?
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IMO this is very tricky ground. First of all let me say that Sasha has the right to do anything or to represent heself in any way she chooses. Next I will add that I am sure glad I am not Sasha or in the public eye and open to the examination and second quessing that she has set herself up for. My short answer would be that as long as she is being promoted as a role model for preteens and teens (and younger) that is an awesome responsibility and IMO she should avoid doing things publicly that that are not age appropriate for that group. Does representing the U.S. on the world/Olympic teams mean that her personal conduct should be under more scrutiny than say proffessional athletes? I don't know, perhaps yes. Does the USFSA/Olympic committee have a code of conduct or offer guidelines to the athletes? Again, I don't know but they probably should. You might argue that SC didn't ask for that responsibility but i think that it's one of those things that go along with the territory,

Everyone's definition of art and what is appropriate for any given situation is going to vary. Example: As I mentioned I work with Girl Scouts and let me add that I do not have children of my own. I was drafted because my niece wanted to be a Brownie and no one would be a leader. The first Christmas I was a leader I had thirty of the brownies (K through third graders) at my home for a Christmas party. We noticed a group of them gathered in a hallway giggling and one little girl started crying. One of the Moms and I went to see what was going on and found them in front of a print I have of "The Kiss" which features two angels. The male angel's genitals are in full view. (I collect angels) They were laughing and polnting and like I said the one little girl was crying because "She wasn't allowed to look at dirty pictures and now her mommy would make her quit Brownies!" I was stunned as my mind quickly was taking inventory of where else I might have "offensive art" on view. My niece who was in the first grade told the girls that they were "being silly, it's just a p****, boys have them you know". My feelings were that they were being silly and that any parent who would find something wrong with the picture must be nuts. After some thought I decided that when the girls come to my home I take the picture down and replace it with something else. As a person it is my right to display whatever I want in my home. But as a G.S. leader it is my responsibility to not expose the girls who I am entrusted with, which I consider an honor, to anything that their parents choose not to show them. The responsibility of the position IMO supercedes my personal preferences as to what is appropriate. I can live with that. Some people can't. Second example. My ex sister-in-law's second husband is a photographer, very successful, has done covers for Life magazine. When they married they had a print of the previosly mentioned N.K. with snake over their sofa in the living room. When my niece (a different one) went to live with her mom and new stepfather and began having friends over they decided to move the picture to a hallway in their master suite so that my nieces friends would not have access to it. Just like with my angels, they were not embarrassed by the picture or ashamed of having it. But they relized that not everyone shared their taste including some of their daughter's friends and thier parents.

I just think that when you are dealing with other people's children and what you are exposing them to you have to be supersensitive to their beliefs and wishes as to what they want their children to see. If you cannot or won't do that then you shouldn't put yourself in the position to begin with.

It's wonderful that we all can appreciate different things. But one person's Michelangelo is another's Maplethorpe.


Piel

As your average desensitized teen, all I can say is I'm completely unaffected by these photos. Like Lanie said, it's typical high fashion - ridiculous, unwearable outfits. I view the shots as artistic, she's not showing any more of herself than she would in a skating dress anyway (unless you consider skating tights to be worlds apart from bare legs. I don't, a wedgie is a wedgie and a bum is visible regardless of whether there's 0.5mm of thin stretched fabric glued to it). Pick up any teenage girl's magazine, you'll see MUCH, MUCH worse in the fashion sections. Not only that, they RECOMMEND you go out and buy these sleazy outfits.

I don't particularly like any of the outfits, some of the pictures are nicely taken, but that's about it. However, it is refreshing to see a different kind of body in a fashion shoot. Sasha is short, very, very short and muscular as hell. It's not the ideal supermodel body, but it's a body that I can relate to - in one aspect....

Go the stumpy legged!

Kathy, here's the part that I don't get. V, Vogue, Cosmopolitan, Glamour -- all the fashion magazines that print these offensive pictures in their advertising campaigns -- they are women's magazines. Men do not read them, men do not buy them to look at the pictures, and men do not buy the products that they advertise (women's clothing, skin care products, etc.) Who are these provocative and exploitative poses directed at?

Mathman

Idle's pic of MK. That was a shot taken during a competition while MK was skating. There is a big difference in that and say if MK had posed in the Charlotte position for a staged photo. Not to mention that Mathman would have broken the camera and destroyed the film.

No woman I know dresses in thigh high boots, CFM shoes, and ANY kind of lacing when her intent is to just look her best or to be fashionable. This kind of get up has the reputation of being a turn on to some men. Most women (and men ) nowadays see this as objectifying and demeaning. The thigh high boots scream Julia Roberts' Vivian in "Pretty Woman"...a hooker.

Piel

Again, Piel, to whom do these photos scream hooker? No men will ever see them. (Unless they read figure skating boards.) If women find them demeaning, then they won't buy whatever is being advertised. Yes, sex sells, but I am confused about the audience for these commercials. No men are going to rush out and buy V magazine because they heard that it had some hot pictures of Sasha Cohen (who?), like they did when nude photos of Vanessa Williams were published in Hustler, for instance.

About MK, I have been going back and forth for two days now about whether my responsibilities as a moderator compel me to do any deleting of posts on this thread.

Mathman

giseledepkat said:

Earlier in this thread I related how Richard Avedon's photo of Nastasia Kinski had a powerful, and I believe powerfully positive effect on me at an impressionable age. I'm very curious as to whether Sasha's photos from the V photoshoot have had a powerful effect on younger viewers. If there are any teenage SashaFans reading this -- please let us know! Do you think that these photos send a positive or negative message to young people?

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Funny how you keep up bringing up Nastassia Kinski, as a "powerful" and even "positive" influence on impressionable young women. Personally, I find a NUDE photo of Ms. "poochi tummy" Kinski, being much more suggestive and "in your face," than photos of a fully clothed Sasha Cohen.

There's a certain fact, that needs to be brought up to light, since Sasha's small frame brings up comparisons to Lolita. Of course Sasha at 19 is an adult, and a hard working, driven young woman. I think you should be interested to find out, that oozing with "positive" confidence Nastassia used to be a teenage lover of director Roman Polanski, so SHE was in fact real life Lolita. (Not that I blame her, she was of course a minor, and an innocent party, but let's just keep our facts straight.)

registered said:

Funny how you keep up bringing up Nastassia Kinski, as a "powerful" and even "positive" influence on impressionable young women. Personally, I find a NUDE photo of Ms. "poochi tummy" Kinski, being much more suggestive and "in your face," than photos of a fully clothed Sasha Cohen.

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Of course I agree that the Kinski photo is far more suggestive and provocative than any of the Sasha photos! Can you imagine the uproar if Sasha had posed nude with a boa constrictor!

I suggest you reread my initial post, which was about my individual, personal response to the Kinski photo at the time of it's publication. It had nothing whatsoever to do with Kinski herself as a role model, good or bad. Just my own personal, very likely atypical, interaction with an artwork, which for whatever reasons served to calm my fears of never being able to measure up as a sexual being. I don't doubt for a second that other people had vastly different responses to it!

As I said, we all bring our unique life experiences to bear when viewing a work of art, and that is why I am so interested in hearing from, as you say, "impressionable young women" as to their response to the Sasha V photos. I would expect that responses would vary from individual to individual!

Kathy said:

It is apparent to me that many do not understand why this photo shoot is disturbing. Those who are posting about there reactions seem to fall into three categories - those who like the photos and enjoy the message, those who are fans of Sasha and wish to give her the freedom to do as she chooses without condemnation, and those who understand the meaning behind the imagery of the shoot who are disturbed. I belong to the later category.

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Oh, so you're a "the one" who knows an absolute truth on this matter, right? Well, congratulations to you. But I believe you've omitted one category of posters, and IMHO you belong to that group.

There's a group of non-fans of Sasha, or I'd put it more accurately, anti-fans, in who's opinion all positive coverage, or media attention to Miss Cohen is "over-hype," and something she doesn't really deserve (deep down they believe, the only one who should be getting this kind of treatment is Michelle Kwan), who would waste no time on making mountains out of molehills, ridiculing or putting a negative spin on everything SC did or said.

They would go on and on with their imaginary vision on sport and athletes, who they'll hold to an impossible standards of preternatural "role models." If every move of any skater would be looked at under the microscope, dissected and psychoanalyzed in such manner, there simply would be no role models, since there are no saints in real life. Just a food for thought, should an 18 years old skater, who skipped an Olympics opening ceremony, but rushed to participate at the Howard Stern's show, be considered a positive role model? (And it was NOT Sasha Cohen.)

giseledepkat said:

If there are any teenage SashaFans reading this -- please let us know! Do you think that these photos send a positive or negative message to young people?

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Okay, more from me...

Well, I'm 17, and a Sasha fan, and I already said what I think...typical, silly junk you see in fashion magazines that should have no bearing about a positive or negative effect. I mean, these are hardly the sorts of things that, say, Britney Spears has done and she's a much more influential image to girls than Sasha Cohen. Most girls I know at my high school, and younger, don't even know who Sasha is! "Sasha Cohen?" "Yeah, a figure skater." "Oh, like Michelle Kwan?" Maybe it's because I'm older and don't buy into the whole image thing presented in magazines (especially teen magazines; as someone said, they're much worse, and ADVISE you to dress with everything but your chest and crotch showing), but I don't find them offensive. I think they're unattractive, but I think Sasha's still a "positive role model image" for girls with her hard-work.

I am disturbed by the sexualization of womens bodies for fame and profit regardless of who does it. I am troubled that we live in a society that embraces this. I am troubled by the corporations and individuals who drive this trend and make millions, and by the people who support it knowingly and inadvertently. I am also aware it is so pervasive in our society that many people take it as "normal". I would be distrubed by such a photo shoot regardless of who did it - Michelle Kwan, Brittney Spears, my sister, my daughter, Sasha or Julia Roberts or anyone else. I am also aware that I cannot change this trend, and people are free to do and like what they please. But I am saddened when I see it. I am saddened when I see 9 year olds dressing like Brittney Spears. I am saddened that our magazines look as they do. I run a Children's clinic and cannot put Vogue, Teen Magazine or many of the popular magazine in the waiting room bucause of the inappropriate images they contain. Figure skating is such a young girls sport and they will be influenced by its heroines, and Sasha is one of their heroines. I am not anti-sasha, I have never posted anything negative about her or any other skater. Mostly I just lurk around these boards and keep up to date with many skaters I am interested in and I love to watch.

Registered, just for the record, Michelle kicked Howard Stern's butt. She came off as the very model of ladylike decorum in a situation that would have proven difficult for many a more experienced celebrity to cope with.

This was easy for Michelle, however. All she had to do was be herself.

Mathman

It isn't the boots. It's the ropes and bars, coupled with the boots, CFM pumps and so forth. Are the strips of fabric whips?
Who knows. I still haven't figured out the point of the strips of fabric pictures. Any assistance would be appreciated.

Mathman is right. It's women that read these magazines. Women who as Lanie said when in their teens were convinced explicitly that this stuff is attractive to men by teen mags that are 'worse'. These are the same teen mags that when I was a teen advised you that glasses, brains, ability in math, and a ton of other stuff were unattractive to men. However, the hockey joes were not writing or photographing for these Teen mags AFAIK. I married a hockey joe, and his taste ran and runs to non high fashion looks. I don't think they (hockey joes) were designing high fashion clothes, or photographing high fashion clothes either. And in my day, neither were women doing the design or photo shoots of this stuff, in general. Coco Chanel was doing nice suits back then. Mary Quant maybe qualifies. She was doing stuff for Twiggy. -short skirts, big boots, bright colors. They're the only women designers I remember from the time.

But as I said before, whether this stuff bothers you or not, there is absolutely no evidence that Sasha has any idea of what these pictures elicit in your mind. She just thinks high fashion clothes are nice and she likes modelling. Nothing unsuitable for a role model, if in fact any athlete should be a role model.

As far as I know, these days darn few athletes buy into the role model business. Can we say Kobe Bryant? Tonya Harding? Pete Rose? Yagudin? (in a descending scale of non role model behavior) It's not a requirement in any sport that you be a role model. It is for a scout leader though. JMO, though, worth what you paid for it ($0)

dpp

Mathman said:

Registered, just for the record, Michelle kicked Howard Stern's butt. She came off as the very model of ladylike decorum in a situation that would have proven difficult for many a more experienced celebrity to cope with.

This was easy for Michelle, however. All she had to do was be herself.

Mathman

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From what I remember of watching that particular program, Howard made some extremely half-hearted (for him) attempts at his usual sleaze. Michelle didn't rise to the bait of his questions, and he more or less conducted a non-Howard "normal" interview with her from that point on. I think she really intimidated him by her lack of sleaziness.

It's been a while since I saw it, but those are my impressions.

Mathman said:

Registered, just for the record, Michelle kicked Howard Stern's butt. She came off as the very model of ladylike decorum in a situation that would have proven difficult for many a more experienced celebrity to cope with.

This was easy for Michelle, however. All she had to do was be herself.

Mathman

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OK, if you say so. But wouldn't it be much more "lady like" to simply decline Stern's invitation? Didn't MK know what his "talk show" is all about? Just imagine for a second how many people were saddened and turned off by such display of immodesty, and anti-role model behavior.

Well, I'm just pulling your leg here. Personally, I'm at peace with MK's choices, and I fully trust her judgment, on what's the best for her. She had a gig on that show -- fine, great for her. We all entitled to have fun ones in a while, and she's no different from anyone else in that aspect.

And to the photo shoot in V mag, if things were not spiced up a bit with this one picture of Sasha, wearing "eville" shoes, it would look pretty much like a layout in Sports Illustrated (and I'm not talking about the swim suit issue).