Yahoo sports!: The night they killed figure skating | Page 6 | Golden Skate

Yahoo sports!: The night they killed figure skating

jcoates

Medalist
Joined
Mar 3, 2006
As I've said before, this boils down to the same old, never-ending argument that's been going on in skating for decades: athleticism vs artistry. Of course this is far too simplistic an argument to make, but it makes it easy for casual fans to be drawn in to watch and comment during the TV and internet age. Skating is by nature athletic, so it's disingenuous to imply that "artists" lack athleticism. By the same measure, skating has an inherent beauty due merely to its gliding movement that can be described as artistic even among the so-called "athletes". It comes down to degrees of each and striking the right balance. While Plushenko's style on the ice has never really been my cup of tea (I preferred Yagudin in the old days), his earlier programs had paid more attention to better construction when he had an acknowledged rival to measure himself against.

After SLC, I got the sense that he felt that he really was only competing against himself. It worked in Torino because his rivals collapsed and the IJS was still not yet clearly defined. But the last four years have been filled with pretty intense rivalries among the top skaters with no dominant skater until the last 12 months. The IJS has been clarified as well. So more guys were primed to be competitive, at least in some segments, this time around. I think Plushenko ignored his competitors and the adjustment to rules and standards to his own detriment. (To be fair to him, however, the competitions he did compete in prior to Vancouver mirrored Torino in that most of the competitors failed to meet to challenge of skating against him.)

Lysacek did the opposite. He set a long term goal and made his plans based on competing against the top guns. Small setbacks along the way were acceptable because he was looking at the big picture. He knew he was not the best athlete among the top guys. So he had to win by being a smarter competitor. That's what makes all sports fun, figuring out how to win when the odds are not in your favor. Otherwise it would be more like the Westminster Dog Show. In competition, the best or most talented athlete does not always win. Sometimes the smartest or hardest working one does, or the best strategist. The more paths to victory there are, the more legitimate the sport becomes. Michael Weiss echoed this point yesterday on UniSports when he used a football analogy. A team can score a touchdown lots of different ways. You can use a really long hail mary pass that catches the defense off guard or a multiple play drive that takes ten minutes. While the big pass is more spectacular and crowd pleasing for an instant, the long drive is no less legitimate and both score six points. I would add that the long drive also eats up more of the clock, giving the scoring team a strategic advantage. Dan Hollander and Tracy Wilson have also made equally adept analogies using other sports.

In skating, if we are really to buy into Plushenko and Mishin and Stojko's arguments, then we might as well declare someone like Beatrix Schuba (1972 Olympic champ) an illegitimate winner because she won on the strength of her unmatched compulsory figures. After all, she was not a spectacular free skater and we've all been instructed by these three that jumps are all that matter. So let's strip her of her title and give it to Karen Magnussen or Janet Lynn instead. For that matter, let's strip Peggy Fleming of her gold medal because she had some mistakes in her free skate which did not hurt her because her overall quality was considered superior to more dynamic jumpers and was miles ahead after the figures anyway. Then go after Dorothy Hamill for not attempting a triple jump in 1976 in a tight contest and winning with a clean skate against other women who tried triples, but made errors. What about the 1980 games where Denise Beilmann won the free skate and did a triple lutz (which even the men's OGM, Robin Cousins, did not attempt) but won no medal because her figures were poor? Same with Ito in 1988? Let's revise skating history and make them both OGM's just to satisfy some lurking desire to play armchair judge, jury and executioner to the rules and results of skating as we think they should be.

Or we could be adults and remember that skating's scoring system gets tweaked about every five or ten years in response to trends, errors, and advancements and you have to skate and win under the rules that exist on that day, not some purist, ideological ideal of what skating should be. The goal is neither to create an exhibit for the Louvre or to earn skating entry into the X-Games. It's to create the best vehicle for the skater to display his/her skills as required by the rules at hand and to win on those merits alone. The performance can be beautiful or revolutionary, certainly, but it is more important that it is complete as the rules require. In truth neither Lysacek nor Plushenko broke new ground in what they did . Evan's skate was well choreographed, but other champions have been as well. Evgeny landing a quad was not new either and any pretense to the contrary is dishonest. Both did what they do well. It came down to how well they did everything and how what they didl fits into the rules at the time. If they agree to compete under rules, they should agree to accept the result.
 

luv2sk8te

Spectator
Joined
Jan 15, 2010
I think the only reason Evgeni came back was to make the statement that he could come back after 3years away, and still beat everyone else. I also think he was trying to prove that you can't win without the quad. He was cocky, he put down other skaters, and he didn't make his programs anything exciting to watch because he really didn't think he needed to. He thought he could step on the ice, do the bare minimum, and as long as he did the quad well, he would win. He failed and now he's cranky. Evan may not be the greatest skater out of the men's group, and he may not be the best olympic champion, but he was the best in this event and so he did deserve to win. We can't focus on past performances of the other skaters. They didn't show up when it counted, and Evan did. Let's not forget the upset by Sarah Hughes.
 

nastasi1212

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 19, 2010
I think the only reason Evgeni came back was to make the statement that he could come back after 3years away, and still beat everyone else. I also think he was trying to prove that you can't win without the quad. He was cocky, he put down other skaters, and he didn't make his programs anything exciting to watch because he really didn't think he needed to. He thought he could step on the ice, do the bare minimum, and as long as he did the quad well, he would win. He failed and now he's cranky. Evan may not be the greatest skater out of the men's group, and he may not be the best olympic champion, but he was the best in this event and so he did deserve to win. We can't focus on past performances of the other skaters. They didn't show up when it counted, and Evan did. Let's not forget the upset by Sarah Hughes.

you must be watching a lot of NBC and you are buying into anything. I feel so sad when the TV viewers don't think for themselves. DON'T BUY INTO ANYTHING!!
 

edge31

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 18, 2010
I am one who tends to like the skaters that go for the big jumps in the major competitions. After all, it is competition and sport. I have been a fan of skaters like Elvis Stojko, Jozef Sabovcik, Brian Boitano, Surya Bonaly, Midori Ito, and others who have pushed the jumping side of the sport ahead.
But I am also not naive, and I understand the history of skating and how it has been judged for the past 70 years. There has never been a time when artistry hasn't been important in skating (even when it was just figures alone). There was ALWAYS the all important "second mark". So it's a little strange when I read complaints as if this is the first time skating has been looked at as an artistic sport. The quality of the elements has ALWAYS been judged.
The results here are no different than they have been forever in skating. Someone doesn't like it, someone is happy with it, blah blah blah. What kills figure skating is article titles like these and bitter skaters making comments about the sport. Comments like Elvis' about going to watch hockey since it's a real sport. That's pretty ungreatful. Skating gave him a career, and still does. He went in knowing all the rules and the tendencies of the sport and then acts like this is the first time in history that it has been judged in a way that some people don't agree with - as if skating has ever been judged in a way that EVERYONE can get behind.
Skating has always been about what traditions are important at the time. At one point it was figures. Then it was jumps. Then more artistry. Then the whole package. There have also been style trends - athletic and straightforward, complex and busy, Russian style, north american style. It goes through cycles.
Yes skating is a sport and it continues to have quads - some years more than others like it has been since quads started appearing in competitions. It will always have them whether the COP is designed to reward them "properly" or not, because some people just like that side of skating.
If Plushenko does believe what he said about quads then he should have a problem with the 2002 results. Who knows what he really thinks but he wasn't protesting then......
And I hope he went a shook Tim's hand after the event.

What kills the sport are whiners who can't handle the outcomes of the events. Former skaters and commentators who put their unfounded negativity out on the airwaves for the people to read and take up as a banner when in fact most of the people that read these comments don't really know very much about skating.
I challenge these people to be more responsible about the things they say and how they say them. They are creating the negative press about the sport. If they disagree with the results, then of course they can say as much. But I believe they should say so with the overall attitude that what was done was in fact within the rules and therefore acceptable. A better luck next time attitude.
 

UM84

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 21, 2010
You have to remember that it is a lot easier to comeback at his age now a days. The training is better, the athletes know more about taking care of their bodies, the training facilities are better
 

luv2sk8te

Spectator
Joined
Jan 15, 2010
you must be watching a lot of NBC and you are buying into anything. I feel so sad when the TV viewers don't think for themselves. DON'T BUY INTO ANYTHING!!

I don't watch NBC's coverage of the games, I am not a fan of Evan's skating, but Evgeni and his absurd pelvic thrusts did not deserve gold, and I am quite capable of thinking for myself. Problems with the new scoring system? yes. Did Evgeni get robbed? no. Those are my opinions and you are entitled to yours...and please don't belittle me.
 

Germanice

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
Awwww, poor Yagudin, he's so far behind of the great, "immortal" Plushenko, it almost sucks ... but how come that almost nobody else but the die-hard Plushenko-fans remember even one of his programs, with the exception of the "legendary" :laugh: "Sex Bomb", of course? "Winter", "Man In The Iron Mask", "Gladiator", "Etude Of Revolution", "Lawrence of Arabia", many ordinary skating fans all over the world have this programs in their mind, but just ask them what will remain of Plushenko --- just a number of titles and medals, just maths. Yags is an entire different matter, it's all about heart & soul, unforgettable performances, and people realise that, you know? :biggrin:
 

Justafan

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 18, 2005
Odd how two people can see the same thing, but in totally different ways.

For example, I've never ever gotten Yagudin, period. I thought he was & is overrated. I don't see artistry, nor dancing, nor stretched out legs, nor anything, though I do give him kudos for great jumps. As God is my witness, he reminded me of a crab with bent over poor posture & bowed legs, especially when he was doing his footwork. In contrast, I would have this ideal of Kurt Browning in my head ~ beautiful straight posture & legs dancing down the ice like Gene Kelley. But it was John Curry whom was the true male ballerina on ice.

None of the male Olympic Champions over the years have ever moved me except Curry & Plushenko. Period.

When I see Evgeni perform "Once Upon A Time In America" or "Carmen" or "The Godfather", I see everything that is great about this sport I love so much. True athleticism mixed with showmanship/art/whatever you want to call it. The complete package, and that's the honest to God's truth.

He has the perfect physique with beautiful posture & stretched out limbs, especially evident in his camel spin. None even come close. And when he is ON with the perfect vehicle to show off all his gifts, there's nothing like it! This is why I was so disappointed with his LP this year (not so much his SP, though it could be a tad better).

It's good & necessary to have an ego when competing, to believe you're the BEST, and he is! But that must be tempered with an understanding of COP & a willingness to conform to it, including a program that will draw the audience in, music that is familiar.

Like I've said since the beginning, this is a humbling & necessary experience for Evgeni to go through. I just don't want it to break his spirit.

You still are the BEST, #1, Numero Uno, et al. But your hubris must be tempered with what I said above.


:love:GOOOOOOO EVGENI!!!!:love:

I used to enjoy Plushenko's skating back when he seemed to care somewhat about the artistry but I don't think he brought it here. I appreciate his fire and determination but all I could think about watching that choreography was that he looked like he should be skating to "Do ya think I'm Sexy?" by Rod Stewart. It just overshadowed any of his athleticism for me because I think you have to have the whole package. I'm not a fan of Evan's skating either but I think he stayed more committed to the program. I felt like Plushenko just thought it was in the bag as evidenced by his sword in the holster move afterward. It turned me off and it's a shame because really he is better than that. Skating is about athleticism but it is also about beautiful lines and deep edges...at least for us old timers who grew up expecting those things.
 

tralfamadorian

Rinkside
Joined
Aug 4, 2003
I don't think Plush miscalculated the COP that much, after all he did get ok levels with relatively little effort, so in this sense he also took advantage of the system. Sure, he could have done more, but I think he really put out all he was capable of at that moment. (I really wonder how much his injury earlier in the season interfered with his training, I have a feeling he really had to pace himself and set priorities for his body to hold up till Olympics, afaik he's still skating with pain killers, which makes me applaud him for his achievment even more.)

I don't think his lack of better footwork or spins comes from arrogance or ignorance, he simply had to make some compromises considering the short time he had to bring *everything* back to competition level again. (And let's admit if he decided to go quadless and just do beautiful transitions and footwork most of us would have been very disappointed.)

And let's not forget that in the end his strategy almost worked, after all it was very very close and it could have easily gone the other way, and based on the scores he actually would have won if he just executed his planned program 100%. (And I also think if he'd been physically up to it, he could have done a second quad and then we wouldn't be having this discussion at all.)

ETA: I just want to add that I don't think it's fair to say he has no artistry, this is just another one of those culture clash issues IMO. He does have his own distinct style, and he is obviously musical and moving to the music. I totally undestand that some people don't like his style or don't think it's "real" artistry, but there are also lots of people who disagree, it's all very subjective and afaik there's no universal definition for "real" artistry. So IMO he is very much has artistic in his own way (and actually has a style of his own, which is a plus in my eyes), only it doesn't fit everyone's taste, but it's still artistry.
 
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domenico

Spectator
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
Hello everybody.

This is my first post here, and probably there will be not many in future, since I'm just an occasional viewer of figure skating. But the whole polemic of the two Ev's took me so much that I decided to post my contribution here, with the premise that for what matters my favourite FS of this olympics has been Daisuke's.

I think one should give a look at the judges details for skaters, which can be found on the
ice skating page in the official vancouver olympics website.

Variance on Plushenko's is impressive. In the technical elements, fifth element gets a +2 from two judges and a -1 from other two judges, and opposite sign judgments are also in elements #1,#2 and #9 (on Lysacek's side this phenomenon never happens, what's positive is positive, what's negative is negative). also variance in Plushenko's components is impressive. For instance, transitions get a 6.0 from 2 judges and 8.75 from other two.

:(

This makes me prefer a lot the old non-anonymous system (not talking of CoP vs. 6.0 here, just that I liked when judges put their flag on it)
 

colleen o'neill

Medalist
Joined
Nov 3, 2006
I absolutely agree about the anonimity of judges. Even if they're all 100% objective ( which would be a phenomenal accomplishment ,in the short time since the last scandal ), it leaves too much room for speculation.
 

Sk8n Mama

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 23, 2004
which I guess some 'skating moms' have an issue with since their kids just can not jump.

I'm not the mother of a skater. I was a skater myself and, for your information, jumps were my strength. I've also judged skating. If you're going to question my own knowledge and credibility and get snarky about it, maybe you'd better lay yours on the line.

My point here, if we're actually trying to look at the posts objectively is: Elvis Stojko is not a credible source because he was a figure jumper. In fact, one might say he ushered in the era of figure jumping. To say that the system that rewarded Evan was correct and the winner shouldn't just be the best jumper would be for Elvis to admit that he didn't deserve his own medals, or at least he'd never get them in this system. That's why I said he's lost all credibility with this article. His motivation for writing it is glaringly apparent.
 
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adamlondon

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 7, 2004
Stojko really read my thoughts and made them known. I dont know why people here keep trying to defend Evan as if it were a personal issue Elvis had against Evan, nor anyone else for that matter. NO ONE THINGS EVAN IS A LOUSY SKATER! I think that skating is sport first and artistic performance next. I would watch ballet if artistry I was looking for. having said that, I don't even think that Evan is such a great artist nor does he have the best jumps- Oda and Kozuka, for example have better triple jumps than Lysacek. So, if someone else had a great artistry which grabs you by the throat like Michelle kwan for example, then there is an argument for this.

The component marks also include skating skills as one of the criteria- a skater who does a quad triple must surely have better skating skills than anyone else. Is that reflected in the scores? No. In 1988 tara won over MK and I was absolutely heartbroken for MK but I agreed with the result. I though MK had contributed far more to the skating world than any other girls I know in the past 10 years but I still thoguht that the result was right.

Elvis was also right to note that many junior skaters already have the content that Lysacek have before going into seniors. If I were them i wouldnt risk injury and heartache trying things which are not essential. In that sens the sport is going backwards. If I were mao asada and I see what is going on I would definitely not risk the 3A- she has already shown this year that it is not worth it. Double penalisation for underrotation and negative GOEs for trying to push the boundary.

A final thought- a quad triple combo is something which requires a lot of talent and hard work to happen. Better spins and footwork can be worked on by most elite skaters. I think this is the only year I disagree with the olympic champion for men's.
 

seniorita

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
Awwww, poor Yagudin, he's so far behind of the great, "immortal" Plushenko, it almost sucks ... but how come that almost nobody else but the die-hard Plushenko-fans remember even one of his programs, with the exception of the "legendary" :laugh: "Sex Bomb", of course? "Winter", "Man In The Iron Mask", "Gladiator", "Etude Of Revolution", "Lawrence of Arabia", many ordinary skating fans all over the world have this programs in their mind, but just ask them what will remain of Plushenko --- just a number of titles and medals, just maths. Yags is an entire different matter, it's all about heart & soul, unforgettable performances, and people realise that, you know? :biggrin:

Sorry but you sound the same die hard Yagudin fan as the die hard Plushenko fans.
Cause I could write this also : many ordinary skating fans all over the world have this programs in their mind, but just ask them what will remain of Yagudin.
But I wont.
If you watch youtube views you will see both skaters are remembered for many of their programs.
Highlight Yagudin by diminishing Plushenko is an 6.0 attitude. I thought we were in CoP era. :p
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
The component marks also include skating skills as one of the criteria - a skater who does a quad triple must surely have better skating skills than anyone else.

Skating Skills in the program components refers to what you are doing when you are not jumping, spinning, etc. Things like speed throughout the program, depth of edges, ice coverage, etc.

Yes, it is entirely possible for someone to be a great jumper but have weak "Skating Skills" in the narrow sense of the PCSs.

tralfamadoian said:
I don't think Plush miscalculated the COP that much,...

:agree: *Whole post.*

domenico said:
Hello everybody.

This is my first post here,...

Welcome and thanks for joining us. We hope you like it here! :yes:
 
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emma

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 28, 2004
ditto on tralfamadoian!!!!

I've been wanting to send hugs to seniorita - I feel badly that Plushenko had those little errors throughout, for me, there is nothing like watching him when he is spot on (and I missed that); but kudos to his silver and what a come back! Congrats to Evan and Daisuke too !!! What a roller coaster of emotion! One thing I am clear about, I don't think I will ever really "get" the PCS marks, at least not intuitively or on a way that allows me to gauge scores while watching....in some way, realizing that is liberating as now I am definitely back to just watching and jumping up and down and enjoying (or crying) and I am not even trying to score.
 
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