Plushenko & other Russians comment on the Men's Event | Page 12 | Golden Skate

Plushenko & other Russians comment on the Men's Event

Dodhiyel

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 13, 2003
.... I've not very knowledgeable about the nuances of the 6.0 system, so please (politely) correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that there was a bigger reward and not much risk for the quad.

I don't know if this was addressed by another poster, but I want to make sure that the facts are known to all. Under 6.0, the quad was *very* high risk for years.

After Urmanov's Olympic victory over Boitano, Cinquanta told judges that, from then on, they should only give credit for elements accomplished, not for more difficult elements attempted that were not completed. After that, skaters tried *very* hard to "skate clean", i.e., without any falls. Falling usually resulted in lowered marks for Presentation, which was the bigger part of the total score. Since the quad itself presented a high likelihood of causing a fall, skaters definitely were raising their risk level by attempting it.

I never liked quads per se, because they appeared to increase the wear and tear on the skaters' bodies. For this reason, I should not like to see quads become mandatory; however, I think that raising the number of points rewarded for quads and quad combinations might be a good step. That would leave the decision up to the skater.
 

jennylovskt

Medalist
Joined
Oct 20, 2006
Anton has spoken, Urmanov, Tarasova, Katarina Witt who is not russian, Navka, The russian Hockey captain (lol-but it was really warm words about all the team being behind him holding hands), I have skipped reading the thread here, just telling you what I know. Well you can guess what they said. Maybe more people have spoken, i lost track.

What did they all say? I am tired of reading American medias' take on it, and want to know the other side.
 

Alatariel

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 15, 2010
I never liked quads per se, because they appeared to increase the wear and tear on the skaters' bodies. For this reason, I should not like to see quads become mandatory; however, I think that raising the number of points rewarded for quads and quad combinations might be a good step. That would leave the decision up to the skater.

I love quads but I couldn't agree more with that part. If you are going to take this risk, at least be rewarded properly. I've mentioned it before, if you do your calculations nicely taking a risk for a certain quad combo is simply idiotic as you can get the same amount of points without that. This is just plain nonsense.

I really don't see what's wrong with changing the rules that are obviously not good enough except if at this time it doesn't suit your particular skaters. This of course just means the moment Canada and the US get someone with a consistent quad and decent other overall skills you can bet they'll hop on the bandwagon!
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
I love quads but I couldn't agree more with that part. If you are going to take this risk, at least be rewarded properly. I've mentioned it before, if you do your calculations nicely taking a risk for a certain quad combo is simply idiotic as you can get the same amount of points without that. This is just plain nonsense.

I really don't see what's wrong with changing the rules that are obviously not good enough except if at this time it doesn't suit your particular skaters. This of course just means the moment Canada and the US get someone with a consistent quad and decent other overall skills you can bet they'll hop on the bandwagon!

You are right. When the CoP was being put together quad values were carefully considered. The powers at the time wanted to make sure that a skater like Tim Goebel wouldn't win too easily just by outjumping everybody. Now do those same powers want the rule changed to give the quad more points? And who in Russia has a consistent quad besides Plushy? Who has two quads this season? Was it Ryan Bradley ?

Who has three quads? Which federation had the only three quad jumper when the CoP was formatted?
It was USA and Tim Goebel and the rules and points were formatted to make sure Tim would not win just because he was such a great quad jumper.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
What did they all say? I am tired of reading American medias' take on it, and want to know the other side.

I have certainly heard enough from Elvis, your new hero and favorite skater ;)

I asked about it because I was curious to read comments outside of N. America.

I don't care who they picked but am more interested in what they had to say about it.
 

Maribelle

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 13, 2007
Country
United-States
I really liked Tim Goebel's comments and I agree with everything he said.

I thought that Plushenko and his coaches knew they were in trouble before the short program even began and that is why they already started complaining to the media beforehand. They knew Plushenko's program was weaker and not as well constructed and may not get the highest scores, so that's why they were mouthing off about the quad all the time.

Like Goebel says, I do think that the quad should get higher scores. If someone can do a triple triple combo and get almost as many points, then why bother to do a quad. Not many people can land them, so the risk takers should be rewarded with more points. I say a quad/triple combo should have been worth 15 points. Then Evgeny would have an argument that he should have won the Olympics.
 

blue_idealist

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 25, 2006
In response to an earlier question, IIRC, Ryan Bradley did attempt two quads in the FS. I can't remember if both were ever clean.
 

jennylovskt

Medalist
Joined
Oct 20, 2006
I have certainly heard enough from Elvis, your new hero and favorite skater ;)

For the record, Elvis is not my favorite skater, he never was. But he is my new hero.:biggrin:

Anybody who pushes CoP's change into the direction of encouraging skaters to put quad in their programs is my hero.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
About Tim Goebel and his three quads...In the preliminary version of the CoP that they were working on during the "interim" judging system in the 2002-22003 season, the ISU went back and re-scored the men's Olympic free skate as a test case.

Goebel won over Yagudin. This was obviously wrong, so they re-worked the scoring system, giving greater weight to PCSs, to make sure that in the new system a mere quad jumper like Goebel could not win over an all-around skater like Yagudin.

After Buttle won the world championship in 2008 over quad-man Joubert, the ISU decided they better raise the value of a quad from 9.0 to 9.8 points.

I agree with Oxade. Next year the ISU will raise it again, thus "saving men's figure skating" once more.
 
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janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
For the record, Elvis is not my favorite skater, he never was. But he is my new hero.:biggrin:

Anybody who pushes CoP's change into the direction of encouraging skaters to put quad in their programs is my hero.

Well I was half right :)

Cinquanta says the rule is fine and that he doesn't want it changed. He wants to see all around strong programs as more important than one jump.

Will you feel the same way if Mao lands three 3A's in Vancouver but still loses to Yuna?

It would be a similar argument - except Mao would only have to land two 3A's since Plushy only landed two quads.

I wonder if Tat will have the same argument as Mishin and claim "Yuna is not skating like a man" if she doesn't try the 3A :laugh: :laugh:
 

seniorita

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
I finally read the thread to see what Russians and Plushenko said to find out that apart from some briliant adds it wasbasically three people comments on the Men's Event.
i thought i was in men's free thread. :rolleye:
 

Layfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
About Tim Goebel and his three quads...In the preliminary version of the CoP that they were working on during the "interim" judging system in the 2002-22003 season, the ISU went back and re-scored the men's Olympic free skate as a test case.

Goebel won over Yagudin. This was obviously wrong, so they re-worked the scoring system, giving greater weight to PCSs, to make sure that in the new system a mere quad jumper like Goebel could not win over an all-around skater like Yagudin.

After Buttle won the world championship in 2008 over quad-man Joubert, the ISU decided they better raise the value of a quad from 9.0 to 9.8 points.

I agree with Oxade. Next year the ISU will raise it again, thus "saving men's figure skating" once more.

Oh wow. That is so interesting. I like Goebel and everything but no way should he have won over Yags - or Plushenko for the silver. I've brought up the whole Goebel thing a couple times. I know it's tricky because Plushenko is obviously a much more all around skater than Goebel. But Salt Lake City completely undermines the argument that Plush should have won just because he did a quad and Evan didn't. When you peel it all back, that seems to be Elvis' argument.
 

bekalc

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 1, 2006
About Tim Goebel and his three quads...In the preliminary version of the CoP that they were working on during the "interim" judging system in the 2002-22003 season, the ISU went back and re-scored the men's Olympic free skate as a test case.

Goebel won over Yagudin. This was obviously wrong, so they re-worked the scoring system, giving greater weight to PCSs, to make sure that in the new system a mere quad jumper like Goebel could not win over an all-around skater like Yagudin.

After Buttle won the world championship in 2008 over quad-man Joubert, the ISU decided they better raise the value of a quad from 9.0 to 9.8 points.

I agree with Oxade. Next year the ISU will raise it again, thus "saving men's figure skating" once more.

:lol: Of course if Yagudin was competiting under IJS, he would have done that second triple axel. I think the problem is the math. I actually like the idea of people being able to move up and forward. But I also think that judging the parts doesn't always tell the story.

I've always said that I felt 2007 GPF mens was an example of the problems with COP-in both the short and long.

In the short program Lambiel did a 4/3 and a 3axel. But he didn't get the greatest GOE because his landings where shaky. In ended up with second in the short program to Daisuke. Daisuke definetly had the better short program artistically. And he did get high GOE for his gorgeous 3flip/3toe, and his gorgeous 3axel. But its not like Lambiel isn't great at presentation himself, and I felt like because Lambiel did a 4/3 (even if it was shaky) he deserved the lead for taking that risk.

We had the opposite scenario in the long. In this case Lambiel had a better program than Daisuke. Love his creative Flamengo. But Lambiel's two quads were messed up, so was his triple axel and one of his 3/3s wasn't clean too. He did have a 3/3 though. In contrast, Daisuke landed a quad and 2 triple axels and went clean. His only mistake and it did cost him was doubling his second quad toe which meant he couldn't do a 3/3. However, considering all the jumps he landed and the fact that he is a very complete skater. I thought it was ridiculous that Lambiel ended up winning that competition. The sad and scary thing is their TES were almost tied!

I remember some people said that Tarasova in the commentary both commented and was like I understand Lambiel getting higher PCS, but Daisuke landed 2 triple axels and a clean quad and Lambiel didn't land any of those cleanly. And Daisuke was hardly a Tim Goebel.

I'm fairly convinced that if GPF had been scored under 6.0. Lambiel would have won the short, and Daisuke would have won the long and the competition. Sometimes things can't be done by math and you actually need to look at the problems as a whole and evaluate what the skaters did in relation to each other. However, I think that if they are going to raise the value of the quad etc, they need to insist on rules about hitting skaters hard for messy programs.

Maybe what they needed to do and I know it sounds unfair but find away to show the judges what PCS they can give to a skater to give them the win overall. So the judges can actually ask themselves does so and so deserve to win or does so and so. It may sound completely unfair, but I actually think it would be better for the sport.
 
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jennylovskt

Medalist
Joined
Oct 20, 2006
Well I was half right :)

Cinquanta says the rule is fine and that he doesn't want it changed. He wants to see all around strong programs as more important than one jump.

How come the ISU president never change?


Will you feel the same way if Mao lands three 3A's in Vancouver but still loses to Yuna?

It would be a similar argument - except Mao would only have to land two 3A's since Plushy only landed two quads.

I wonder if Tat will have the same argument as Mishin and claim "Yuna is not skating like a man" if she doesn't try the 3A :laugh: :laugh:

Don't you think that women should skate like women?:biggrin: I actually don't really know the exact situation about the ladies. But I like Yu Na Kim's skating. I wish she could win this time.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
How come the ISU president never change?


Don't you think that women should skate like women?:biggrin: I actually don't really know the exact situation about the ladies. But I like Yu Na Kim's skating. I wish she could win this time.

I am no fan of Cincuanta if for nothing else the anonymous judges and too much power in the hands of the tech panel.

The Ladies may turn out like the Men - one or more of the favorites will probably meltdown like Jeremy and Brian.
One of the good ones - probably Akiko will be overlooked unfairly like Johnny,

And one or two will probably get scores we don't understand - maybe Rachael.

I have no idea about Joannie - but I will hold my breath when she skates and my best thoughts are with her.

I am always surprised when fans only care about the Men - or only about the Ladies.

I don't really know the rules for Ice Dancing very well but I really like watching it.
V/M thrilled me with their Spanish program last night. .
 

seniorita

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
seriously people should stop splitting hair.
This was a thing that started in vancouver.
Russian television originally presented him with his platinum medal, with RTR host Alexei Popov telling him, “You already have one gold and one silver so here’s a platinum medal for you… You are the real champion.”
and the pic is from plushenko's official fan forum, what did you expect, people made him a platinum look alike medal to make him feel better, unfortunately i missed it.
They also have a banner, Plushenko-Heavenly Creature, will be there a scandal that he implies he is better than yuna??
Yahoo should go back to post Paris Hilton articles.
 

Alatariel

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 15, 2010
The point is to continue what they started even before the men's event - turning Plushenko into this KGB monster of a sorts. Works just fine due to the fact that the Russians are still considered to be third class mafia commie ebil monsters in many people's minds. Oh well ... what's new under the sun?
 

Ximena

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Some other quotes, Phillipe Candeloro and Brian Boitano

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/20/sports/olympics/20longman.html

Philippe Candeloro of France, the 1994 and 1998 Olympic bronze medalist, said: “Evan did a very good job; all the jumps were clean. But my problem is, I didn’t see any quad. For me, it could be much better for the ice skating world if Plushenko can win. It would be more respectable. People who like skaters like warriors.”

Yet, Boitano and Candeloro thrived under the old 6-point scoring system. There is a new system in place now, one that values completeness over big tricks. Plushenko did not calibrate his Olympic program accordingly.

It may be thin consolation, but there is no small sympathy for Plushenko’s point of view about the quad. Boitano, who always viewed himself as an athletic skater, said, “I agree with him that figure skating needs to progress and get more technical.”
Also, Mr. Olavarrieta (an ISU technical caller) said that in his opinion, Evgeni should have won. In the video, both are in Spanish, he said that while he thought Evgeni had the advantage; then he talked about the PCS scores and he said that the problem is that the difference between them comes from a very subjective point, the appreciation of the program but he thinks Evgeni should have beaten Evan by more in the Performance mark

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHMUUDDI4mA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBGGHGqqkGI&feature=channel

At the end he says "Gold, my Olympic Gold is for the mental strenght of Plushenko"
 
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