An important lesson for skaters, know the rules. | Page 2 | Golden Skate

An important lesson for skaters, know the rules.

Layfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
Blah blah blah.

Dai could have easily won the OGM. Easily. If he had landed that quad he would have been even more pumped and it would have been an easy win. If he skated a clean program without the quad he still would have won easily over the drone. His PCS were the highest too. So be sure he knows the sacrosanct Rules of Competition quite well.

He did the quad because he feels to be a worthy Champion of the Olympic Games should at least try one. True champion in all ways. Unlike the talentless drone. But it may as well be a culture difference - some people celebrate even losses when they are honourable, some celebrate wins even when they are dishonourable.

Enough of this.

There is nothing dishonorable about Evan's victory. He won fairly because he packed his program with many elements that COP values, worked his butt off and performed two great programs in a row. Plushenko had one great element but the rest of his program was vulnerable. He paid the price.

You may dislike the way Evan skates. You make dislike that he didn't do a quad. But I don't see how Evan dishonored himself at all.

As for remembering skaters: Too bad that last image many people will have of Plushenko is him stepping on top of the podium because he'd "forgotten" he won the silver. He's making it incredibly easy for Evan to take the high road and look classy. The whining from Plushenko, Russia and some of his fans are ensuring that more people are paying attention to Evan than normally would have.

It's actually YOU who is trying to tell everyone to shut up with childish comments like "blah blah blah..."

Well, fine. And since I'm not Evan and I don't have to try to look classy in interviews, I say, nanny-nanny-boo. Evan won. So there.
 

zowie

Rinkside
Joined
Nov 5, 2006
He did it not because he feels to be a worthy Champion of the Olympic Games should at least try one.It was because he didn't want to waste his effort for training that quad.He trained it,so he did it.

I thought that even attempting a quad was worth a lot of points. How many points is it worth?
 
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Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Anton Kovalevski who placed dead last in the 2010 men’s figure skating competition is many times better than just about
anyone if not everyone posting on this board...

Hah! Bring him on. I'll throw my Iron Lotus at him (base value, 25.6 points) :)

What no one seems to be considering is the possibility that coaching teams -- who eat, live, and breathe competitive figure skating -- do know the rules. I think all skaters do whatever they can to maximize their scoring potential.

Plushenko front loaded his jumps because that gave him a better chance of landing them before fatigue set in. He did not do transitions between his biggest elements because if he had he might not have been able to complete the jumps. He intended to put a double loop on the end of his 4T/3T combo because he had read the rule book and knew that it was worth an extra point and a half -- but in the execurion it didn't work out.

Plushenko worked on his spins and footwork to try to attain higher levels and stronger GOE. And indeed, he did OK in these categories, but others were a little better.

Takahashi attempted the quad because, having read the manual, he knew that quads are the highest scoring elements. A successful quad was his best strategy to win the gold medal. (As it turned out, this was not such a big risk after all because even with a fall he still won the bronze.)

Evan added up his strengths and weaknesses and designed his program accordingly. I do not think there will be an asterisk beside his name in the Almanac saying, "not a true champion."

Everyone did what he could. They all left points on the table for the things they couldn't do. It turned out how it turned out. (Weir was robbed -- should have been fourth. :laugh: )
 
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gfskater

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 4, 2009
Hah! Bring him on. I'll throw my Iron Lotus at him (base value, 25.6 points) :)

What no one seems to be considering is the possibility that coaching teams -- who eat, live, and breathe competitive figure skating -- do know the rules. I think all skaters do whatever they can to maximize their scoring potential.

Plushenko front loaded his jumps because that gave him a better chance of landing them before fatigue set in. He did not do transitions between his biggest elements because if he had he might not have been able to complete the jumps. He intended to put a double loop on the end of his 4T/3T combo because he had read the rule book and knew that it was worth an extra point and a half -- but in the execurion it didn't work out.

Plushenko worked on his spins and footwork to try to attain higher levels and stronger GOE. And indeed, he did OK in these categories, but others were a little better.

Takahashi attempted the quad because, having read the manual, he knew that quads are the highest scoring elements. A successful quad was his best strategy to win the gold medal. (As it turned out, this was not such a big risk after all because even with a fall he still won the bronze.)

Evan added up his strengths and weaknesses and designed his program accordingly. I do not think there will be an asterisk beside his name in the Almanac saying, "not a true champion."

Everyone did what he could. They all left points on the table for the things they couldn't do. It turned out how it turned out. (Weir was robbed -- should have been fourth. :laugh: )

Some good points. You are probably right. They all know the rules. From the rules you develop your program/playbook. For some the plan worked for others it did not. They are all great skaters.

My Tripple Praying Manits will eat your weak Iron Lotus for breakfast!
 
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Layfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
Hah! Bring him on. I'll throw my Iron Lotus at him (base value, 25.6 points) :)

What no one seems to be considering is the possibility that coaching teams -- who eat, live, and breathe competitive figure skating -- do know the rules. I think all skaters do whatever they can to maximize their scoring potential.

Plushenko front loaded his jumps because that gave him a better chance of landing them before fatigue set in. He did not do transitions between his biggest elements because if he had he might not have been able to complete the jumps. He intended to put a double loop on the end of his 4T/3T combo because he had read the rule book and knew that it was worth an extra point and a half -- but in the execurion it didn't work out.

Plushenko worked on his spins and footwork to try to attain higher levels and stronger GOE. And indeed, he did OK in these categories, but others were a little better.

Takahashi attempted the quad because, having read the manual, he knew that quads are the highest scoring elements. A successful quad was his best strategy to win the gold medal. (As it turned out, this was not such a big risk after all because even with a fall he still won the bronze.)

Evan added up his strengths and weaknesses and designed his program accordingly. I do not think there will be an asterisk beside his name in the Almanac saying, "not a true champion."

Everyone did what he could. They all left points on the table for the things they couldn't do. It turned out how it turned out. (Weir was robbed -- should have been fourth. :laugh: )

This is a very nice post, and you are right about Plushenko. It's unfortunate that his sour grapes routine distracts a little from the fact that he did have a very good skate and that his comeback at age 27 was amazing. I don't mind him suggesting that maybe the quad should be worth more and that it's too bad more men aren't doing them. I actually agree with him a little. Just wish he was a bit more diplomatic in saying it. Or better yet let his skating speak for itself. Plushenko sort of made a statement with his LP. A LOT of people wish more men skated like that these days. And that's respectable.

With all this debate, I went back to watch the Salt Lake City competition. Plushenko and Yagudin were superb. Goebel was great and he did one more quad than the two Russians. But Plushenko and Yagudin were breaktaking especially Yagudin.

I enjoyed their three skates better than the ones I saw Tuesday. I think Plushenko came back in part because he honestly believes men's skating was not what it once was. And I think, for some fans, he proved it even though he wasn't nearly as good as he was in 02. So I do wish COP could be tweaked somehow ... But it is what it is and Evan won. And despite all the macho talk from Plushenko there is no blame or shame in that and there never will be. He's a gold medalist forever.
 
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janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
Evan added up his strengths and weaknesses and designed his program accordingly. I do not think there will be an asterisk beside his name in the Almanac saying, "not a true champion."

Everyone did what he could. They all left points on the table for the things they couldn't do. It turned out how it turned out. (Weir was robbed -- should have been fourth. :laugh: )

I agree about Johnny. And Johnny has some of the most loyal fans - yet their reaction has been pretty classy.
I wonder if sometimes fans don't take a lead from the skater. Johnny not only skated extremely well but handled himself very well.

I have not been his fan before but admit I enjoyed both of his programs. I respect the way he handled himself and i find myself liking Johnny more and more. I do think he should have been 4th but I think Johnny was skating for a different reason in Vancouver.

I am happy that he was satisfied with his programs and that he will leave Vancouver feeling good about his skating and himself.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I thought that even attempting a quad was worth a lot of points. How many points is it worth?

Takahashi's problem was not that he fell, but that he did not complete the rotations before he fell. So his attempt was scored the same a a fall on a triple toe.

If you compete the revolutions, but then fall, it goes like this.

Base vaule for a 4T = 9.8. Minus three GOE (factored) = -4.8. Fall deduction = -1.0. Grand total = 4.0 (exactly the same as for a successful triple toe.)

If you get dinged for an underrotaion but do not fall, then you get (typically)

Base value for a triple = 4.0, minus two GOE. Total = 2.0.

But if you underrotate and fall you get:

Base value = 4.0, minus three GOE = -3.0, fall deduction = -1.0. Total = 0. This is what Takahashi got for his effort.

So the rule is -- it's OK to fall, but you better not come up more than 90 degrees short on the rotations.
 
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nghtvsn

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 17, 2006
The biggest lesson I learned from the mens' event is that Daisuke Takahashi would be the 2010 Olympic champion if he had landed his opening quad jump in the LP.

Or possibly if he had done a different combo there instead. That fall got him nothing apparently. Shame.
 

Sk8n Mama

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 23, 2004
OP-you have it dead right.

How can people complain about the results when the rules are published for any average Joe to read, some skaters follow them to the letter and are rewarded, others completely ignore them and aren't rewarded? Evan Lysacek read his copy of the CoP, made sure the program was choreographed accordingly, and skated clean. Other people completely front-end loaded the program, had absolutely no flow to their movements or transitions, and expected that jumps will carry them through. That's ridiculous.

Evan added up his strengths and weaknesses and designed his program accordingly. I do not think there will be an asterisk beside his name in the Almanac saying, "not a true champion."
Absolutely agree!:thumbsup:

I've had so many friends non-skating knowledgeable ask about the men's event because of all the hype. The thing is, it was fair according to the CoP. Don't like the CoP? That's a different thing entirely.

Only in skating could someone think that the published rules wouldn't be used to determine the game.

I want to see CoP changed for next time. I want to see skating progress technically but I'm extremely tired of the whole Plushenko was robbed business. Can he read? Then he has no one to blame for his silver but himself.
 

nastasi1212

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 19, 2010
How can you support that the CoP system helped an overall skater win, when the two athletes were tied in the programm components??

Lysacek beat PLushenko in the TES and that is a complete joke with his mediocre jumps which shouldn't have gained a single point of GoP.
Plushy beat Lysacek in skating skills, presentation and interpretation.
He had better jumps. He was wrongfully deprived of his gold medal and that's the failure of the system.
Now not only the judges can manipulate te results, but also mediocre athletes (like Lysacek or that joke Chan) can manipulate the judges by creating a clever CoP friendly programm to earn medals.
I FEEL LIKE THROWING UP.
This system has to be changed immediately, or else is an insult to the great skaters of past and present who risk everything to be the best.
Shame on u ISU, but you cannot play games with our intelligence
 

museksk8r

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 31, 2006
Country
United-States
I think we skating fans were the most robbed of all. Too many better skaters didn't skate up to their potential the way we all know they can, thus allowing a more inferior skater to win just like last season's Worlds. Oh well, life goes on, I'm just not happy about this result. That's life, whatever will be, will be. On to the next mens' competition, 2010 Worlds, where hopefully we will see better skating! :yes::)
 

gfskater

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 4, 2009
Has anyone watched the nbcolympics video showing the base value of each element then the value Evan got after? It was pretty cool to see it presented that way.

http://www.nbcolympics.com/video/as...99b.html#scoring+analysis+lysaceks+free+skate

The only prolem I have with something like that is they don't show why each element gained or lost value.

You can see all the scores for all the skaters on ISU. It shows why each element was rated. You do need to know what some of the symbols mean for example e means wrong edge, < means under rotated. All the tops skaters had downgrades and upgrades. Interesting that Evgeni had the least number of negative GOEs (1) I would say the juges were quite generous to Evgeni based on some of the air positions and landings I saw. A miracle he did not fall on a few of them.

http://www.isuresults.com/results/owg2010/owg10_Men_FS_Scores.pdf
 

Layfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
OP-you have it dead right.

How can people complain about the results when the rules are published for any average Joe to read, some skaters follow them to the letter and are rewarded, others completely ignore them and aren't rewarded? Evan Lysacek read his copy of the CoP, made sure the program was choreographed accordingly, and skated clean. Other people completely front-end loaded the program, had absolutely no flow to their movements or transitions, and expected that jumps will carry them through. That's ridiculous.


Absolutely agree!:thumbsup:

I've had so many friends non-skating knowledgeable ask about the men's event because of all the hype. The thing is, it was fair according to the CoP. Don't like the CoP? That's a different thing entirely.

Only in skating could someone think that the published rules wouldn't be used to determine the game.

I want to see CoP changed for next time. I want to see skating progress technically but I'm extremely tired of the whole Plushenko was robbed business. Can he read? Then he has no one to blame for his silver but himself.

In fairness to Plushenko, I think his program would have won the night if he had skated it a little better. His technical base value was higher than Evan's, I believe. He made just enough mistakes on the technical side, however. And he didn't take advantage of COP as much as he could have later in his program. It was a strategy, though. Just like Evan's strategy was to leave out the quad but skate an very difficult program otherwise. Evan could not afford to make mistakes, or at least not too many. Turns out, Plushenko couldn't afford to mistakes either. His hubris was in believing that just because he had a 4-3 he COULD afford to make mistakes. Not that I think he made those mistakes on purpose but he apparently believed once he had finished skating that he could get away with them.

What's killing him is that he did his best element well and Evan didn't have a quad. While I sympathize with the idea that more men should be doing quads, Plushenko is acting like it's the first time someone who did one quad more than the other guy lost an Olympics. He should remember Salt Lake City when he defeated Goebel for the silver even though Goebel did one quad more than Plush.
 

Layfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
How can you support that the CoP system helped an overall skater win, when the two athletes were tied in the programm components??

Lysacek beat PLushenko in the TES and that is a complete joke with his mediocre jumps which shouldn't have gained a single point of GoP.
Plushy beat Lysacek in skating skills, presentation and interpretation.
He had better jumps. He was wrongfully deprived of his gold medal and that's the failure of the system.
Now not only the judges can manipulate te results, but also mediocre athletes (like Lysacek or that joke Chan) can manipulate the judges by creating a clever CoP friendly programm to earn medals.
I FEEL LIKE THROWING UP.
This system has to be changed immediately, or else is an insult to the great skaters of past and present who risk everything to be the best.
Shame on u ISU, but you cannot play games with our intelligence

I don't know what competition you watched but Plushenko's jumps were NOT WELL DONE. Just because he has a reputation as being the best jumper in the world doesn't mean he lived it up to it that night.

Plushenko may fundamentally be a better skater than Evan. Michelle Kwan was certainly fundamentally a better skater than Sarah Hughes. But Sarah was better than Michelle that night in 02. And Evan did better than Plushenko on Tuesday night.

What would have made me want to throw up is if they had handed Plushenko the gold just because he's SUPPOSED to have better jumps than Evan and because he's SUPPOSED to win. That kind of judging is what would have taken the fun and excitement out of any competition.
 

gfskater

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 4, 2009
What's killing him is that he did his best element well and Evan didn't have a quad. While I sympathize with the idea that more men should be doing quads, Plushenko is acting like it's the first time someone who did one quad more than the other guy lost an Olympics. He should remember Salt Lake City when he defeated Goebel for the silver even though Goebel did one quad more than Plush.

Thanks for pointing that out.
 

Dark-Eyes

Rinkside
Joined
Jan 18, 2010
How can you support that the CoP system helped an overall skater win, when the two athletes were tied in the programm components??

Lysacek beat PLushenko in the TES and that is a complete joke with his mediocre jumps which shouldn't have gained a single point of GoP.
Plushy beat Lysacek in skating skills, presentation and interpretation.
He had better jumps. He was wrongfully deprived of his gold medal and that's the failure of the system.
Now not only the judges can manipulate te results, but also mediocre athletes (like Lysacek or that joke Chan) can manipulate the judges by creating a clever CoP friendly programm to earn medals.
I FEEL LIKE THROWING UP.
This system has to be changed immediately, or else is an insult to the great skaters of past and present who risk everything to be the best.
Shame on u ISU, but you cannot play games with our intelligence

Plushenko's jumps were a mess Thursday night. Did you watch the same program I did? He had URs that were not called. He was given +GoE on jumps that he could barely land. When he skates his best, I agree, he is stronger than Evan. I don't even like Evan's skating! But let's be realistic. Plushenko's skate in the LP was not anything to brag about. He was his own worst enemy in this competition. If he wants to blame someone for not winning the OGM, he should look in the mirror.

On the topic of min-maxing points, I agree that the system is flawed. I don't want skaters focusing on every turn of their blades during a program more than they focus on interpreting music, and skating that is beautiful and artistic. I am not happy with the way things are headed in skating today. But I will say that I still think the two can be combined- knowing the rules, and artistic programs. I think Jeremy proved that with his two programs this year. Unfortunately, he did not skate them well at the Olympics. If he had, I think he could have taken home the OG.
 
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nastasi1212

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 19, 2010
"If he had, I think he could have taken home the OG. "

I am so sick of the if's... That headcase Patrick Chan claimed that he would have won IF he had delivered a clean programm.
What the hell are they thinking?
( I am stilll trying to keep myself from throwing up)
 

silverlake22

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
Plushenko's jumps were a mess Thursday night. Did you watch the same program I did? He had URs that were not called. He was given +GoE on jumps that he could barely land. When he skates his best, I agree, he is stronger than Evan. I don't even like Evan's skating! But let's be realistic. Plushenko's skate in the LP was not anything to brag about. He was his own worst enemy in this competition. If he wants to blame someone for not winning the OGM, he should look in the mirror.

On the topic of min-maxing points, I agree that the system is flawed. I don't want skaters focusing on every turn of their blades during a program more than they focus on interpreting music, and skating that is beautiful and artistic. I am not happy with the way things are headed in skating today. But I will say that I still think the two can be combined- knowing the rules, and artistic programs. I think Jeremy proved that with his two programs this year. Unfortunately, he did not skate them well at the Olympics. If he had, I think he could have taken home the OG.

Totally agree, Scott Hamilton called him a cack (don't know what that means) but most of his jumps were downright scary looking. His quad-triple was so leaning in the air, it was not a thing of beauty, I've seen better ones by Verner and Schultheiss. I don't know why he's complaining about silver, I thought he deserved bronze at best. Evan is not my favorite skater but his jumps were smooth and steady and even though he is a bit boring, he is artistic compared to Plushenko.
 

Layfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
"If he had, I think he could have taken home the OG. "

I am so sick of the if's... That headcase Patrick Chan claimed that he would have won IF he had delivered a clean programm.
What the hell are they thinking?
( I am stilll trying to keep myself from throwing up)

Your arguments seem to amount to Plushenko being unbeatable no matter what he does on the ice and the other skaters shouldn't even have bothered showing up.

Maybe Plushenko's fans should just set up up a competition where he goes out and skates alone and it's one big love fest whether he trips all over himself or not.
 
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