Stojko opposes the ladies result | Page 6 | Golden Skate

Stojko opposes the ladies result

edge31

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 18, 2010
I dont' think judges are really looking at how pretty Yuna looks from ankle up when she does spiral. They're looking at her edge & how fast she's skating, etc.

They should be as that is one of the criteria for a +GOE.... good body line.
 

prettykeys

Medalist
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
I think Stojko did not cosider why Team Mao had to do 3A-2T(9.50) instead of 3Lz-3Lo(11.00) or 3Lz-3T(10.00) or 3F-3Lo(10.50) whatever 3-3 more valuable than 9.50.
IS he really interested in Ladies figure skating ? Anyway, I think he has a strong and interesting character.
Your words are exactly my thoughts.

Surely Team Mao should have realized that the base score for the 3A-2T is less than the 3-3 combinations you mentioned. And since Mao is supposedly such a more technically advanced skater than YuNa, who isn't able to do the 3A (and gave up trying to do it shortly after Orser became her full-time coach, I guess they figured out the math), then Team Mao should have said "oh pfffft, 3Lz-3Lo, I can do that in my sleep, and it's worth more, let's go with that."

Can anyone imagine why they didn't? Here are a few reasons I think are possible:
- Team Mao can't do basic math.
- Team Mao can't read the ISU handbook on the scoring for jumps.
- Team Mao prefers the 3Axel. It gives Mao more status, it shows off her technical mastery, and even if it's worth less than the 3-3's under CoP, surely the clean execution should have garnered more points in GoE or even PCS since it's so impressive
- Mao is less consistent on or unable to do a 3-3 that outscores her 3A-2T combination.

I think it's most likely the 3rd and 4th lines of reasoning that factored in. I think it's a bit of a flawed way of thinking, to say that the 3A-2 combination is necessarily more difficult than 3Lz-3T because so few women are even able to land the 3A. Likewise, sometimes a triple jump that has a lower base value under CoP (e.g. the 3S) is more difficult for some skaters than one with a higher base (e.g. 3F or 3Lz, as seems true for YuNa and was also true for Kristi Yamaguchi, to give some examples.)

It seems easier for Mao to do the 3A-2T than for her to do a 3Lz-3T. And certainly YuNa finds it easier to do the 3Lz-3T than to do a 3A...

However, I do agree that the 3A needs to be worth more in base value, as well as quads. YuNa gave up trying the 3A (who knows if she would have ever been able to do it) and many men gave up even practicing quads in recent years simply because they weren't worth the training and the risk of attempting them in competitions under CoP. And I think it'd be a huge shame to have them disappear. We are very used to hearing about how Mao regularly does the 3A and it seems easily tossed aside as something fairly impressive, yet routine. It's not. It is still a huge anomaly among the ladies, and quads are as spectacular as ever. It's not a quantitative thing for me, something that just "adds" to a program or skater's skill set. It's qualitative; it's there or it isn't, and when it's there, it's pretty damn cool.

I also agree with bekalc in that combinations of difficult jumps need to be rewarded more properly; and that more difficult combinations should be better rewarded than easier ones.
 
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Jaana

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
Country
Finland
That's how I feel about the situation as well. This being said I think you could argue that 3/3 rules should be changed to award harder 3/3s. I mean Yu-na didn't get any extra base value points for doing a 3lutz/3toe instead of a 3flip/3toe. (That's ridiculous) But the scores between Mao and Yu-na should be closer. I suspect the ISU is going to take action about the value of the quad and triple axel after the season is over. I think maybe they could reward harder combos too.

I agree that values for some harder jumps, e.g. quad-triple combo in men´s competition, should be changed. On the other hand also the way PCS scores are being given, should be changed also. They should be given for what actually happens on the ice in that particular competition and not be based on reputation (Joubert and Plushenko´s choreography and transitions).
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
Not only was the base value of the ENTIRE combination higher, but the quality of the combination was much better. Mao was creeping across the ice going into the 3A so slowly it was VERY noticeable on NBC and I thought for sure she was going to UR it (GOE bullet - speed/flow going in) and the landing of the 2T was at a dead stop (GOE bullet - out flow). It also went up and down and didn't cover a ton of ice (ice coverage - GOE bullet), didn't have difficult transitions in/out (GOE bullet + TR mark). It was telegraphed for a good 10 or so seconds before taking off (telegraphed jump - negative GOE bullet).

Also, compare speed and flow throughout the entire program. A big portion of the PCS difference is in the 4 PCS corridor marks (SS, IN, PE, CH) because of the skating skills mark. Didn't Kim get ~ 1/2 point higher on SS alone? From what I could tell from NBC's coverage, it was well deserved as there's a definite difference.

Degree of difficulty which seems to be a major argument here is covered in the base value of the element (3A > 3Lz). There's been a great deal of discussion and debate about multipliers for combinations, etc but so far no action to increase combo base values based on their difficulty has been accepted during ISU congresses.
 

dgel

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 23, 2004
Elvis as usual misses the point. The 3 axel gets significantly more points than the 3-lutz, and the differential is about right. The rule change that needs to be made to reward skaters for trying it in the short programme is the requirement to include a 2-axel. If it matched the men's - which allows double or triple axel - then Mao could do 3-axel, a 3-3 combo or 3-2 combo, plus a triple out of footwork. This would allow her to fully benefit from the additional points (2 axel- 3.5 points,; 3 axel 8.2 points; rest of programme can match other skaters for jumps). I don't think anyone could argue that this should not be changed.
 

blue_idealist

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 25, 2006
Yes, the rule is outdated and implies that ladies are never capable of doing triple axels. It holds those ladies back who can.
 

Phoenix347

Final Flight
Joined
Oct 24, 2009
Not only was the base value of the ENTIRE combination higher, but the quality of the combination was much better. Mao was creeping across the ice going into the 3A so slowly it was VERY noticeable on NBC and I thought for sure she was going to UR it (GOE bullet - speed/flow going in) and the landing of the 2T was at a dead stop (GOE bullet - out flow). It also went up and down and didn't cover a ton of ice (ice coverage - GOE bullet), didn't have difficult transitions in/out (GOE bullet + TR mark). It was telegraphed for a good 10 or so seconds before taking off (telegraphed jump - negative GOE bullet).

Also, compare speed and flow throughout the entire program. A big portion of the PCS difference is in the 4 PCS corridor marks (SS, IN, PE, CH) because of the skating skills mark. Didn't Kim get ~ 1/2 point higher on SS alone? From what I could tell from NBC's coverage, it was well deserved as there's a definite difference.

Degree of difficulty which seems to be a major argument here is covered in the base value of the element (3A > 3Lz). There's been a great deal of discussion and debate about multipliers for combinations, etc but so far no action to increase combo base values based on their difficulty has been accepted during ISU congresses.

Thank you for your excellent detailed explanation of how GOE is awarded for jumps. There are clearly defined guidelines for how GOE for jumps are awarded and you explain it very clearly here
 

CdnSkateWatcher

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 21, 2010
http://www.usfsa.org/Content/2009-1...nd Free Skate (Includes Positive Aspects).pdf

Here's a good summary (to me) of the GOE rules, and I believe it's reasonably current (2009/10 season). FYI - my daughter has recently completed a judging clinic, and thus I've been subsumed with information on the evolving issues and skill needed to truly differentiate GOE. That's why they try to pull from very senior judges for these competiitons, in the hopes of getting real expertise. Sure, there have been scandals and horror stories, but, given the number of officials involved in skating, I'd like to acknowledge the efforts they make to contribute to the sport and to do the job well. If you want to be a judge ... and you have the required skating background ... it's an avenue for people who truly love skating and who want to contribute, and it may put you in a position, eventually, to have input into rule changes and implementation. Takes a lot of time and effort however.
 
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CdnSkateWatcher

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 21, 2010
And for quick reference, the jump bullets:

1) unexpected / creative / difficult entry
2) clear recognizable steps/free skating movements immediately preceding element
3) varied position in the air / delay in rotation
4) good height and distance
5) good extension on landing / creative exit
6) good flow from entry to exit including jump combinations / sequences
7) effortless throughout
8) element matched to the musical structure

For +1, you need to get 2 bullets; for +2 4 bullets; for +3, 6 or more bullets.
 

edge31

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 18, 2010
It's funny to read the comments on the GOEs and why so and so deserved this and the other didn't.....
it's the same with the judges as some gave big GOEs and some gave 0 to the same skater for the same element.
To me, that is the real problem... the judges are not consistent in what constitutes the good in "good speed", "good height", etc. What does that mean? Do we now have to take a speed reading so it can be verified? Measure the time in the air with the dartfish technology??
There is so much room to play with the GOE it's almost more ridiculous than the PCS.

To me, Mao and Kim did great, with Kim just edging out Mao probably by 3 points max. As far as the speed and flow are concerned with the entry to a triple axel, well the forward takeoff kind of tends to put a damper on entry speed. Most skaters skate a little slower when entering the axel takeoff for both triple and double axels (when compared to a backward entry jump). To me it's relative - for a triple axel, she had good speed - not excellent but good.
 

hongligl

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 18, 2004
I do think that Yu-Na's 3/3 and Mao's 3A/2t deserve about the same + GOE. But Yu-Na got +2, Mao meerly 0.6. I agree with the placement but not the gaps.
 

ehdtkqorl123

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 6, 2009
I do think that Yu-Na's 3/3 and Mao's 3A/2t deserve about the same + GOE. But Yu-Na got +2, Mao meerly 0.6. I agree with the placement but not the gaps.

But It's the quality that determines the gaps. Personally, I agree with the "narrower" gap with Yu-Na above Mao if Mao had Midori's 3A quality, height and some more speed lol.
If Mao can do 3A like Kulik does, then I wouldn't argue with Mao being ahead of Yu-Na.
 

Fan123

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
But It's the quality that determines the gaps. Personally, I agree with the "narrower" gap with Yu-Na above Mao if Mao had Midori's 3A quality, height and some more speed lol.
If Mao can do 3A like Kulik does, then I wouldn't argue with Mao being ahead of Yu-Na.

That is why I think the base value of the 3a/2t should be higher than 3lz/3t, and despite the amazing quality of the 3lz/3t, the GOE points should not have been enough to garner more total points than the 3a/2t.
 

newvie

Rinkside
Joined
Oct 17, 2009
If 3A base value was very high, Yuna would've tried hard to get it.
I don't think it's completely impossible that Yuna makes 3A if she doesn't insist too much on the "textbook" way.

I just find it interesting that people suddenly complain that 3A base value is too low now.
I would rather say Mao did not make a smart move to rely too much on 3A knowing that it doesn't have high value as they say.
And we know why she does only 3As when she could collect a lot of points with "easy" 3-3s as Yuna.

By the way, i was very happy to see Mao's strong comeback with beautiful 3A combo.
Now I can watch Yuna's program for great 3L-3T and that of Mao for great 3A-2T.
 

ManyCairns

Medalist
Joined
Mar 12, 2007
Country
United-States
For people who missed it, let me reiterate what antmanb said:

A triple axel is already worth more than a triple lutz. Durrr, anybody can look that up and find that out. And nobody disagrees with that. Mao earned more points on the triple axel than Kim on the triple lutz. What gave Kim more points on the combo is the triple toe. See, a triple toe is worth more than a double toe, because durrrr, the double toe is a pretty damn basic jump. What Elvis, who's been bonked in the head one too many times in his karate matches, really means is: he wants the double toe to be worth more. :laugh:

This is what people don't get about the COP. They want to hang it all on one jump or one move. The COP changes the scoring in skating to a cumulative and additive system, in which all your elements count. You can't just do one difficult element and expect a huge total score, you have to do make sure all your elements are difficult and do them all well to get a huge total score. It's a very rational way of measuring technical achievement in figure skating. It doesn't let the wow factor of one move obsolete the rest of the score.

Good point, I am certainly not inclined to argue that if the triple axel's value were raised it would be by enough to make that one move give a skater the ability to make "obsolete the rest of the score."
 

ehdtkqorl123

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 6, 2009
I just find it interesting that people suddenly complain that 3A base value is too low now.

"Some" people feel sour lol. The two have been in senior for years, and it's funny that these complaints come out at this big time, not when they were competing with 3-3 and 3A long time ago.
 

Fan123

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
"Some" people feel sour lol. The two have been in senior for years, and it's funny that these complaints come out at this big time, not when they were competing with 3-3 and 3A long time ago.
I haven't been following skating much until now, and have just discovered the base values on these difficult jump combos. Kudos to Team Kim to have used the point system wisely to their advantage. I think Kim deserves all the GOEs in the short program. Regarding the jumb combos alone, I think more points should be given to combos with the harder primary jumps than the secondary jumps. For example and to respond to DesertRoad's point, 3A/2t should be worth more than 3Lz/3t or 3f/3t because the primary 3A is harder than the primary 3Lz and 3f. To newvie's point, I don't think Kim would have pursued the 3A if it has a higher BV. Did she even try to use it in any of her programs pre-2006 or after?
 
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