Stojko opposes the ladies result | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Stojko opposes the ladies result

miki88

Medalist
Joined
Dec 28, 2009
I agree with you, but the judges should not compare the ladies' GOE with the men's, not only for the 3As, but for all other jumps. The men usually have more speed, height, etc than the ladies. The 3Axel for the ladies is so rare these days...and to give it only a 9.5 base value is absurd, and less than the 3lutz/3toe combo. This is not Kim's fault...I adore her skating...but figure skating is a sport, isn't it?

They shouldn't but I think they might unintentionally compare since there is no other woman doing it. Also, I was told GOE is given for height and ice coverage. I love seeing Mao's 3A because she makes it look so effortless and elegant. However, I do agree that she doesn't get as much height into her jumps as Kim does hers, so that may explain the disparity of their GOE's. I've said it before but I believe if Mao's jumps were as explosive as Midori Ito's she will be getting much higher GOE's.
 

ivy

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 6, 2005
I don't have a problem with base values or the GOE's. Goe's shouldn't be compared to other current skaters, but an ideal of perfection. They should, however, allow the women to do a double or triple axel for the required axel element. Then Mao could have attempted a triple triple and a triple axel.
 

Nadia01

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 10, 2009
They shouldn't but I think they might unintentionally compare since there is no other woman doing it. Also, I was told GOE is given for height and ice coverage. I love seeing Mao's 3A because she makes it look so effortless and elegant. However, I do agree that she doesn't get as much height into her jumps as Kim does hers, so that may explain the disparity of their GOE's. I've said it before but I believe if Mao's jumps were as explosive as Midori Ito's she will be getting much higher GOE's.

I think Dick Button said (last year during World) that there's a jump and there's a jump. Meaning a jump is more than a pop with a lot of revolutions thrown in.

That's where some ladies' GOE may suffer. Yuna is lucky that she can skate so fast and still maintain full control because the speed gives her an extra boost to help her cover the ice so much (and to get the height).
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Uh. How do you do Triple Lutz Triple Lutz combination?
OOPS!!! You're correct. Thanks for catching that. It should be Triple Lutz Triple Toe which equals 6.8 + 4.0 = 10.8 which is still more than 9.5

Actually it would be possible for a stupendous jumper in both directions to do a 3Zx3Z. Risky as all hell, and I dare Elvis to try it.
 

dlgpffps

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 14, 2009
Goe's shouldn't be compared to other current skaters, but an ideal of perfection.

My exact thoughts. But... this is probably influenced by past skaters. This could be a very interesting thread topic.
 

antmanb

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
They shouldn't but I think they might unintentionally compare since there is no other woman doing it. Also, I was told GOE is given for height and ice coverage. I love seeing Mao's 3A because she makes it look so effortless and elegant. However, I do agree that she doesn't get as much height into her jumps as Kim does hers, so that may explain the disparity of their GOE's. I've said it before but I believe if Mao's jumps were as explosive as Midori Ito's she will be getting much higher GOE's.

I wish people would actually read the rules for themselves before passing strong opinions about the rules, or what the judges might actually be doing. The judges work very hard to apply the rules that are in place. They do not make their judgments based on what they think the rules should be unlike most people chiming in (and probably like Elvis too).

So go and actually look up the positive GOE criteria for jump combinations - and read all of the bullets that can make up the positive GOE. Then see which ones could apply in the case of these (and in fact any) jump combinations. It is not about comparison to other skaters, other jumps, other jumps by the same skater or even the same jump by the same skater.

Ant
 

miki88

Medalist
Joined
Dec 28, 2009
I wish people would actually read the rules for themselves before passing strong opinions about the rules, or what the judges might actually be doing. The judges work very hard to apply the rules that are in place. They do not make their judgments based on what they think the rules should be unlike most people chiming in (and probably like Elvis too).

So go and actually look up the positive GOE criteria for jump combinations - and read all of the bullets that can make up the positive GOE. Then see which ones could apply in the case of these (and in fact any) jump combinations. It is not about comparison to other skaters, other jumps, other jumps by the same skater or even the same jump by the same skater.

Ant

So you think judges don't ever do comparisons between skaters when scoring? :laugh: Anyways, nothing wrong with stating opinions about the judging system~~~.
 

Fan123

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
They shouldn't but I think they might unintentionally compare since there is no other woman doing it. Also, I was told GOE is given for height and ice coverage. I love seeing Mao's 3A because she makes it look so effortless and elegant. However, I do agree that she doesn't get as much height into her jumps as Kim does hers, so that may explain the disparity of their GOE's. I've said it before but I believe if Mao's jumps were as explosive as Midori Ito's she will be getting much higher GOE's.
I agree, Kim's 3lutz/3toe was so gorgeous...the best I have ever seen done by a lady. In terms of pure GOEs regardless of jumb combo, Kim wins. In terms of jump combo, Asadashould win. I understand tacking a 3toe a jump combo has higher base value than tacking a 2toe. However, the system should award the the primary jump (in this case 3Axel vs 3Lutz) more. Does anyone know the base value for a 3toe/3toe vs 2toe/3toe? Or the break down value of the jump combo (primary jump + 2nd jump) for the 3A/2toe vs 3Lutz/3toe?
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Elvis Stoijko would oppose world peace if he thought that massive war was technically more challenging. I'm at the point where I really don't understand how he comes up with his thoughts.
 

Sk8n Mama

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 23, 2004
Elvis Stoijko would oppose world peace if he thought that massive war was technically more challenging. I'm at the point where I really don't understand how he comes up with his thoughts.

I used to be an Elvis fan but his diatribes about these Olympics has just turned me off. I'm starting to believe Elvis would like us to can the spins, transitions, footwork, field moves, music, all choreography, and just have four minutes of jumping. The problem with that is, then skating would not be the beautiful and unique sport that it is, and it sure would no longer be the premiere event of the Olympics.

I thought Mao and Yu-Na were pretty close but I wasn't writing down anything they did, comparing what GOE I'd have given them , or checking the protocols for changes according to the technical specialist. One's opinion of a skate just from watching can be very different if one is just watching and enjoying rather than marking the performances. As to the GOE on Mao's 3ax, I don't think anyone should get positive GOE if there's any question whether or not the jump was fully rotated in the air. She did it and it was clean. Bravo for her, truly, but it wasn't worth a huge GOE.

But... this is probably influenced by past skaters. This could be a very interesting thread topic.

I'm remembering previous ladies who did the 3 ax (Tonya, Midori) and how there was never any doubt that those were fully rotated. To me, that's the standard for a ladies 3 ax with positive GOE. Tonya's 3 ax +1 GOE (high and clean but she did it around a corner and didn't always have good flow out). Midori's 3ax +2 (huge, clean, so much flow and ice coverage. It was out of this word). And, for me, +3 is reserved for any female skater whose 3 ax makes me say, "wow, that was even better than Midori's". Thought I doubt I'll ever see that.
 
Last edited:

karenll

Rinkside
Joined
Jan 23, 2010
Personally, I hate anyone getting downgrades, but I thought both Kim and Mao underrotated their second jumps and should have been given downgrades. But I'm sure the tech caller is afraid to give them downgrades because of the death threats from crazy fans that probably happened the last time.

I thought Mirai and Rachael really got the short end of the stick. I don't necessarily disagree with the 5th and 6th place rankings, but they should be much closer to the top IMO.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
Perhaps Elvis and Plushy should get together as a Pairs team. :rock:

I am sure they would have no trouble showing us their mutual love - and can you imagine the sbs quads! :thumbsup:

Who needs "Blades of Glory" when we could have the real thing :laugh:
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
I do understand where elvis is coming from but he never mentions the music.

All the elements can be judged without music as they are in Diving, Music is not needed except for exhibition purposes.

And he would be correct for SPORT.
 

Sk8n Mama

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 23, 2004
3A=8.2 + 1.3 sums up to 9.5
3Z=6.8 + 6.8 sums up go 13.6

Base value: 3 lutz+3toe=10

Base Value: 3ax+2toe=9.5

Does that clarify for everyone? Yu-Na doing 3-3 was actually slightly higher base than Mao's 3ax-2toe per CoP.

The judges gave Yu-Na higher GOE on everything but the step sequence and I'd have to agree with that. Mao's footwork was better. Mao took a risk doing the 3ax-2 toe. IMHO, Maos' jumps are just done but nothing special so I'm not suprised she only got a little bit of positive GOE on each jump with Yu-Na getting more GOE on her jumps.

Oh well, onto the LP. Will Mao go for two 3 axs now? Will her not getting a higher technical score with the 3 ax make her reconsider including the 3 ax or how many? Do you think she should go for it or play it safe? If I was coaching her, I'd probably wnat her to play it safe: but it's usually the people who go for it that win Olys.
 
Last edited:

Maribelle

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 13, 2007
Country
United-States
I agree with Elvis in this case and in his case for the quads. Both jumps are not given enough points in this system. Those who take the risks to do these jumps should get rewarded higher points. Otherwise, the sport will go backwards.

A triple axel/double combination should get the same or higher scores than a 3/3. Why? Because the triple axel is the hardest jump to perform and hardly any men even do the triple axel in combination. Less than a handful of women in the history of figure skating have been able to land one in competition.

That said, Mao and her coaches know the base value of this combo when they constructed the program and they knew the base value of a 3/3. So, if Mao would have done a 3/3 she would be a few points closer to Kim Yu Na's score.
 

Fan123

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
Thanks for the info, Sk8n Mama. If I were to write the scoring, I would have:

BV: 3/lutz/3toe=10
BV: 3Axel/2toe=15 pts

I pretty much agree with everything else with the judges's GOEs for these two fine skaters. With the suggested BV, the disparity between Kim and Asada would be less. To me, the 5 pt difference is too big. On another note, I would have put Rochette's performance as 1st for obvious reasons. :)
 

bekalc

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 1, 2006
I am sure Mao can execute a 3Z x 3Z, but she didn't. Probably wanted to get the feel of the 3A before the LP. Her LP will possibly have both.

Mao hasn't landed one 3lutz this season much less a 3lutz/3toe.

I think it's a delicate balancing act, but as I have already said, if Mao takes silver despite having performed solidly with three triple-axels, against Yuna's great performance where her double-axels will have played a determining role, then this has got to raise some questions about the present system.

I love how you mention Yu-na's 3 double axels while ignoring that only one is in replacement for a triple jump (the 3loop) The other is a requirement, and the last double axel is a reward because Yu-na attempts a 3lutz/3toe and a double axel/3toe.

As I mentioned earlier Mao hasn't landed a 3lutz this season, and doesn't even bother to attempt them. Nor is she doing a 3sal. She also hasn't been doing 3/3s in her program. Mao would benefit more from having a triple axel, if she had the other triples and was doing a 3/3.

I find it annoying for people to suggest Kim takes no risks at all. As if 3lutz/3toes were just common things from ladies, and as if Mao has shown an ability to do that combination herself.

In 2008 when Mao was doing a triple axel and a 3flip/3toe along with a 3flip/3loop. Mao would have been undefeated if clean. Because she was showing the judges she could do everything Yu-na could do and more.
 
Top