Stojko opposes the ladies result | Page 20 | Golden Skate

Stojko opposes the ladies result

Fan123

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
short answer for the PCS difference.... Mao had bad choreo... there was not a lot of transitions and the music was just too heavy for such a light skater like Mao, If she had a stronger program like she did in 2008 and more speed I think the PCS difference would have been miniscule.

Thanks for all your help and time. :)
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
Oh...sorry, you misread my post...I said, "but had she..." In my eyes, I think Kim's peformance was pure perfection. :)

Sorry for misreading. There's just so many posts it just all blended in my head.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
What if they can't do triple axel out of footwork? What if they can't do 3-3? the 2A/3A option would let them do the 3A like 2A.
It gives them more options than the options you listed, thus put them at a disadvantage.

I guess we are in disagreement about what "disadvantage" means. The triple Axel ladies are not at a disadvantage compared to other skaters. So I guess the point is that they do not have as big an advantage as they would have if the rule were changed.

hurrah said:
Someone else must have suggested this.

Yes, it was Flattfan that I was responding to in the second half of my post.

I did, however, say that 2a-2t-2l should not be allowed in a long program. Basically, what I'm saying is that the third double-axel (and additional double jumps that are attached to it) should not be allowed.

I think the ISU sort of leans in that direction, too. Last year they passed a new rule restricting the number of double Axels allowed in a program to three. (There is no limit on other double jumps -- you can do seven double toes as your seven jumping passes if you want to, as far as I know. This is to accomodate younger skaters who cannot do triples at all.)

Anyway, the reason the ISU cut down on double Axels was just what you said -- skaters were padding their programs with double Axels in lieu of harder jumps that they couldn't do. Skaters were doing double Axel/double Axel sequence, plus two solo double Axels.

However, allowing a total of three double Axels does serve another purpose. If you do two triple/triple combos, or a triple/triple/triple for men, then you are up against the Zayak restrictions. If you could not throw in a double Axel to fill your last jumping pass, then there would be no benefit to attempting two triple-triples or a triple-triple-triple -- you would run out of possible jumps to do with your last pass.

The third jump enables a jumper to avoid a triple jump they're not good at and still get points equivalent to a triple jump---in fact, it gets more points than a triple jump: 6.9 rather than 5.0 if it's a triple-loop that's being avoided.

I don't think this is the right comparison. If the skater did 3Lo+2T+2T that skater would certainly get more points than 2A+2T+2T. The rules allow one (and only one) three-jump combination, and it is up to the skaters to find one that maximizes their point total.
 
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rtureck

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
So basically, if Mao's going to be competitive, she needs the lutz and a 3-3? I wonder if CoP will allow her to land 3-3's to the point where she can put them into competition comfortably?

If not, she's cooked meat given that Mirai's coming up, and I'm sure she'll start landing 3-3's comfortably quite soon.

Given that the next Olympics is in Sochi, I really, really hope she stays with Tat. I think this might be her only chance.
I think in order to be competitive she needs a real triple lutz. She does not necessarily need a 3/3. She used to do 3f/2t/2l. I also like to see her get the 3 sal, this is not a point getter jump, but it shows the judges that she is more versatile in the jump department. She definitely can learn from Evan if you can't beat them in the air, beat them on ice. I think she has the potential to do exceedingly well even level 4s in spirals, and spins.
 

miki88

Medalist
Joined
Dec 28, 2009
So basically, if Mao's going to be competitive, she needs the lutz and a 3-3? I wonder if CoP will allow her to land 3-3's to the point where she can put them into competition comfortably?

If not, she's cooked meat given that Mirai's coming up, and I'm sure she'll start landing 3-3's comfortably quite soon.

Given that the next Olympics is in Sochi, I really, really hope she stays with Tat. I think this might be her only chance.

No. She's proved she's competitive without those jumps. Just she didn't win against Yuna. But then it is not only her layout. The choreography and music also diidn't help. Also, both Mao and Mirai have UR problems, so I don't think you can say Mirai has the edge in landing 3-3 more comfortably soon especially given that the panel was taking so much care at checking her jumps last night (which is not fair). But she also has that reputation of getting UR. Also with Mao you never know. She doesn't have some jumps one season, but she may have it again the next season. And why should she stay with TAT? She should find someone better.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
No. She's proved she's competitive without those jumps. Just she didn't win against Yuna. But then it is not only her layout. The choreography and music also diidn't help. Also, both Mao and Mirai have UR problems, so I don't think you can say Mirai has the edge in landing 3-3 more comfortably soon especially given that the panel was taking so much care at checking her jumps last night (which is not fair). But she also has that reputation of getting UR. Also with Mao you never know. She doesn't have some jumps one season, but she may have it again the next season. And why should she stay with TAT? She should find someone better.

I think she needs a lutz, not so much for a 3-3. Rachael Flatt was a top 10 point getter (for a single element) for doing a 3Z-2T. With all but two of the top ten doing a 3Z (many doing 2), I think Mao needs to bring that jump back first before worrying about a 3-3.

And yeah Tat is just not that great of a fit. Who is Daisuke's coach? He/she seems to being doing the right thing....despite not landing the quad, he did a great program technically and his non-jump elements just can't be beat (and I think he should've gotten the gold over Evan).
 

hurrah

Medalist
Joined
Aug 8, 2009
However, allowing a total of three double Axels does serve another purpose. If you do two triple/triple combos, or a triple/triple/triple for men, then you are up against the Zayak restrictions. If you could not throw in a double Axel to fill your last jumping pass, then there would be no benefit to attempting two triple-triples or a triple-triple-triple -- you would run out of possible jumps to do with your last pass.

Oh, I see. Well, Yuna doesn't do two 3-3, so she's using it as a loophole then, I guess. It really is very CoP-smart.

I don't think this is the right comparison. If the skater did 3Lo+2T+2T that skater would certainly get more points than 2A+2T+2T. The rules allow one (and only one) three-jump combination, and it is up to the skaters to find one that maximizes their point total.

Yes, your comparison is more accurate. It's still the case that the third double-axel in Yuna's case is being used to 'pad' her program.

Messing with the point system is so tricky, isn't it.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I wonder if CoP will allow her to land 3-3's to the point where she can put them into competition comfortably?

I don't think I understand this comment. How does the CoP disallow Mao from landing triple-triples comfortably?

On the contrary, the CoP does everything it can to encourage triple-triples by Mao and everyone else.
 

hurrah

Medalist
Joined
Aug 8, 2009
Regarding my post about Tat, I just think there's a political aspect to how some 3-3's are ratified and some aren't or how GOEs are catered out, that's all. But I do really think that Tat has choreographed some great programs for Mao, not Bells so much but the other three have been lovely.
 

FlattFan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
Rachael Flatt was a top 10 point getter (for a single element) for doing a 3Z-2T.
What do you mean? Rachael Flatt is always in the top 10, it is expected that she has a single element in the top 10 point getter. Your point would only be valid if Rachael skated to a last place finish in Colorado, but still managed a top 10 point getter with a 3Z-2T.
 

hurrah

Medalist
Joined
Aug 8, 2009
I don't think I understand this comment. How does the CoP disallow Mao from landing triple-triples comfortably?

On the contrary, the CoP does everything it can to encourage triple-triples by Mao and everyone else.

Maybe I should not have put 'CoP' as the subject. It's just that what can be deemed an under-rotated jump seems so varied.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Yes, your comparison is more accurate. It's still the case that the third double-axel in Yuna's case is being used to 'pad' her program.

Again, this discussion is not about Yu-na Kim, right? We are talking about possible rules changes that will affect all skaters equally.

The reason that I do not think a change is necessary is this. Every skater is allowed one three jump combination. You can do 3Lz/3T/3Lo (like Kevin Van der Perren.) You can do 4T/3T/2Lo like Plushenko. You can do 3F/3T/2Lo -- that would be a big point getter for a lady. You can do 3Lo/2?lo/2Lo (I think both Mao and Slutskaya have done this in the past.) You can do 2A/2T/2T if you are willing to settle for fewer points. You can do 2Lz+2T+2T -- an excellent choice if you do not have a full complement of triples and if your double Axel is unreliable as well.

Each skater choses the combination that best suits his/her program. I guess in a way you could call it "padding." As in, Plushenko padded his point total at Russian nationals by doing 4T/3T/2Lo. He would have padded it even more if he had done 4T/3T/3Lo.
 
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Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
What do you mean? Rachael Flatt is always in the top 10, it is expected that she has a single element in the top 10 point getter. Your point would only be valid if Rachael skated to a last place finish in Colorado, but still managed a top 10 point getter with a 3Z-2T.

Not necessarily. Actually Elene Graborova, who finished 21st, was in the top 10 with her 3T-3T (it's just the rest of her program was not so good). And Miki Ando, despite being 5th, actually didn't make it in the the top 10 for single elements.

Rachael got a a good bonus for her 3Z-2T because of the 10 percent 2nd half bonus and some GOE. The point was that Mao could easily tick off some major points by simply adding a lutz to her arsenel.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
Regarding my post about Tat, I just think there's a political aspect to how some 3-3's are ratified and some aren't or how GOEs are catered out, that's all. But I do really think that Tat has choreographed some great programs for Mao, not Bells so much but the other three have been lovely.

Problem is that TAT is in Russia and won't come to Japan and Mao won't move to Russia. So the partnership won't work until one or the other agrees to move so they can spend more time working together.
 

bekalc

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 1, 2006
I'll try to be more sensitive. I wasn't so conscious of it until it was pointed out to me.



Someone else must have suggested this. I never have. I did, however, say that 2a-2t-2l should not be allowed in a long program. Basically, what I'm saying is that the third double-axel (and additional double jumps that are attached to it) should not be allowed. The third jump enables a jumper to avoid a triple jump they're not good at and still get points equivalent to a triple jump---in fact, it gets more points than a triple jump: 6.9 rather than 5.0 if it's a triple-loop that's being avoided. So I pointed out that this option enables a skater to garner points without actually demonstrating his/her technical versatility that they ought have to to get such points, at the expense of another skater who jumps a huge risk triple-axel combo.

You see, I'm not a Yuna fan, so I perhaps feel more keenly that she should really earn those points.

By the way, Lepisto got 10 GOEs that night, second only to Yuna who got around 18. Lepisto is very beautiful and manages to land more triples than Caro, and I guess they need a European rep.

Why is it okay for Mao to do a double axel instead of a 3lutz or a 3sal, but its somehow wrong for Yu-na to do a double axel instead of a 3loop? As for the rest of Yu-na's double axels, one of her double axels is a freakin requirement (Mao fulfills the requirement with a 3axel). And the third is a reward for doing a 3lutz/3toe and a double axel/3toe. In fact now a lot of the women are doing combinations like Mirai's 3loop seq double axel, in order to ensure that they can fit in more double axels.

If Mao wanted she could easily do instead of her second 3flip/2loop she could just do the 3flip seperately and then she could do what Joannie Rochette normally tries to do double axel double axel sequence. To pick up more points.

Currently the ability to fit in extra double axels is the only reward in the system for doing harder combinations. All of the women except for Mao it seems are trying to fit in as many double axels as possible (Mirai I believe did 3 double axels as well) As for the double axel/2toe/2tano, Mao did at one point a double axel/2toe/2loop herself (If I recall correctly). Until this season Yu-na always did 3lutz/2toe/2loop but now that she's doing the 3lutz/3toe, there's no real rhyme or reason to do the 3lutz/2toe/2loop as well, especially since the base value is the same if she does the 2axel/2toe/2tano.

If they want to get rid of the double axel rule, they will have to find another way to reward hard combinations. That will hardly hurt Yu-na.
 

hurrah

Medalist
Joined
Aug 8, 2009
Why is it okay for Mao to do a double axel instead of a 3lutz or a 3sal, but its somehow wrong for Yu-na to do a double axel instead of a 3loop?

I would not find it okay if Mao were doing double axel instead of a 3lutz or 3sal. But I think she is replacing what might normally be a 3lutz or 3sal with 3axel.

If they want to get rid of the double axel rule, they will have to find another way to reward hard combinations. That will hardly hurt Yu-na.

What other ways could there be to reward hard combinations? I guess just give more points for them? I think this would be fair. I definitely think 3lutz-3toe can be awarded more. However, before awarding 3lutz-3toe, 3axel-2toe would have to be increased in value because it should be valued higher than 3l-3t. If I were to consider this process of change as someone who has Yuna's interest at heart, I would want to avoid opening up this debate.
 
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Bijoux

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 8, 2004
:thumbsup:

lol, but i kond of agree. Elvis and yagudin are among my favorite men. Exciting, masculine, the big jumps, great footwork. Lysaceks program was not as exciting without the quad tri[les we became used to seeing. Time to tweak the CoP, methinks. Plush just did not have it that night. I think MAO in undrscored and it was much harder to do technically two triple axels. Most everyone agrees YUNA was overscored on many elements-rediculous coronation. Oh well, that's figureskating. BTW I loved Laura Lepisto and Kira. When I want to see really beautiful skating, I look to ladies of the past, though Mirai gave me hope with that LP skate.

YUNA's LP was nice but I think her best thing is her speed into that great 3/3. I don't find her moving or compelling or emotional. I think Chen Lu should be her next coach. I'd love to see what Kat Witt would do with her if only she coached elites. Brian has done a good job but he needs to push her now on quality...I think he's too enamored of her celebrity/hype to really polish and push her basic skating skills.

Figures again, anyone???? Guess I'll go watch Witt videos, lol... (old fart purist speaks up......)
 

#1Kerryfan

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 15, 2006
I've got to say I agree with Stojko this time. I thought Asada should have gotten the ladies gold. I was mad when he dissed my boy Evan, but Kim was overscored. She's the new Michelle. No woman has ever done three triple axels in a competition before! Kim didn't even try one.
 
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