Page 1 of 26 1234567891011 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 520

Thread: Stojko opposes the ladies result

  1. #1
    On the Ice
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    182

    0 Not allowed!

    Stojko opposes the ladies result

    former Canadian medallist Elvis Stojko, suggested that Kim's marks were too high. He noted that Asada had successfully landed a triple Axel - she's the only woman who executes them regularly in competition - and got fewer marks than Kim's easier triple Lutz.
    The argument is similar to the one over whether American Evan Lysacek should have won the gold medal without having landed a quad like his competitor Evgeni Plushenko.

    "Yu-Na Kim is way too far ahead. I don't agree with that," said Stojko. "She skated great. Don't get me wrong, she's awesome. But for Mao to do an awesome triple Axel like that, a triple [Axel] is worth way more than a triple Lutz, triple toe."

    http://www.ctvolympics.ca/figure-ska...u+na+path+gold

    I think another controversial result is about to be born..

  2. #2
    Medalist hurrah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    1,690

    0 Not allowed!
    Well, I do think that Yuna was slighly overmarked and Mao was slightly undermarked, even without taking into account that the triple-axel is way too underrated under CoP.

    It will be interesting what the results will be after the LP. If both girls skate without major mistakes in the LP, and Mao ends up with a silver, Mao will have failed to have become a Olympic gold medalist after successfully doing THREE triple-axels against someone who is an awesome skater but nevertheless racks up enough points to win by doing three double-axels in her long program.

    This will be sure proof that the present scoring system is out of whack.

  3. #3
    Rinkside
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    68

    0 Not allowed!
    Oh Elvis. Go crawl back in your hole. Nobody cared what you thought about the scoring of the men's competition and they care even less about your comments on the women's. Your time has passed. You're like the 80 year old man boring everyone to death with their stories of what happened back in the good ole days.

  4. #4
    Tripping on the Podium
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    675

    0 Not allowed!
    Elvis is just pissed because all he had to offer the sport is a quad, and he never became an O's champ even with it.

  5. #5
    On the Ice
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    301

    0 Not allowed!
    Elvis is still trying to validate his opinions about the mens' competition, by using this as another example of how the scoring system failed to deliver. He doesn't actually care about womens' figure skating as his chauvinistic, pig-headed commentary on the men's competition highlights.

  6. #6
    Bona Fide Member aftertherain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    2,483

    0 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by yangjie View Post
    "Yu-Na Kim is way too far ahead. I don't agree with that," said Stojko. "She skated great. Don't get me wrong, she's awesome. But for Mao to do an awesome triple Axel like that, a triple [Axel] is worth way more than a triple Lutz, triple toe."

    http://www.ctvolympics.ca/figure-ska...u+na+path+gold

    I think another controversial result is about to be born..
    1. "Don't get me wrong, Evan's a great guy, but ... blahblahblah." (I'm not on Team Plushy or Lysacek, btw)

    2. Not according to the rules of CoP, Elvis!

    3. He'll probably be the one to start the "controversy". Le sigh.

    4. She was probably a little high, though. I'll agree with that, but really, this is just an extension of his quad argument. (I soooo knew this would happen)

    5. I swear, after Thursday, he'll probably (depends on the results) say that someone resusitated figure skating, but then it died again. :sheesh:

    Team Mao+Yuna+Joannie+_________
    Last edited by aftertherain; 02-24-2010 at 06:03 AM.

  7. #7
    Skating is Art, if you let it be Blades of Passion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    6,724

    0 Not allowed!
    Well, it's definitely worth debating if a 3Axel-2Toe should be worth more than a 3Lutz-3Toe. The former was considered more difficult in the past.

  8. #8
    Tripping on the Podium
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    591

    0 Not allowed!
    ugh! not again. i think elvis needs a job or something. his stint as the figure skating authority is not cutting it for me.

  9. #9
    On the Ice
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    253

    0 Not allowed!
    Before Yu-Na's actual scores were shown, I actually thought the gap (between Yu-Na and Mao's results) was going to be close. I can see where Stojko is coming from, but under/overscoring aside, the IJS is what we have right now.

    IIRC, Timothy Goebel (well known for quads himself) responded to Stojko's statements about the men's quad, and I find that his comments could also be relevant to the ladies' triple axel concerns. (http://currentskateofmind.com/2010/0...-stojkos-rant/) While Goebel thought that the quad should be given a higher value, we have to work with the system which we have today. He suggested having an open dialogue with the ISU to determine the status of the quad. I think we can apply the same suggestion to the triple axel. The IJS isn't perfect, but I rather like that it also emphasizes the importance of the other elements in skating. I much prefer Goebel's articulation of what might be wrong with the current system to Stojko's declarations; I feel that the latter's experiences have deeply colored his views of present-day competition. The website Blazing Blades has posted a Russian commentary by Igor Poroshin (it's translated into English), and while the main subject is Plushenko (and the quad, and Lysacek), he also mentions Stojko. Here is the link. http://kwantifiable.xanga.com/722361...-olympic-loss/ Sorry if it's a little off-topic.

  10. #10
    Bona Fide Member Joesitz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    20,161

    0 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Well, it's definitely worth debating if a 3Axel-2Toe should be worth more than a 3Lutz-3Toe. The former was considered more difficult in the past.
    There are base values for the combo and it is the sum of the two jumps. If Mao got the correct sum, then there is nothing to debate. Check the protocols.
    3A=8.2 + 1.3 sums up to 9.5
    3Z=6.8 + 4.0 sums up go 10.8

    I am sure Mao can execute a 3Z x 3T, but she didn't. Probably wanted to get the feel of the 3A before the LP. Her LP will possibly have both.
    Last edited by Joesitz; 02-25-2010 at 07:07 AM.

  11. #11
    Rinkside
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    38

    0 Not allowed!
    Hmm...from looking at the protocals, is it right that the base value of the 3A/2toe is worth less than the 3lutz/3toe; 9.50 vs. 10.0?! IMO, the 3A combo should be worth way more like 4 points. IMO, the placement of the sp could have gone either way for Kim and Asada, but the 5 pt disparity is unjustified.

  12. #12
    Spectator
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    4

    0 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ren View Post
    Before Yu-Na's actual scores were shown, I actually thought the gap (between Yu-Na and Mao's results) was going to be close. I can see where Stojko is coming from, but under/overscoring aside, the IJS is what we have right now.

    IIRC, Timothy Goebel (well known for quads himself) responded to Stojko's statements about the men's quad, and I find that his comments could also be relevant to the ladies' triple axel concerns. (http://currentskateofmind.com/2010/0...-stojkos-rant/) While Goebel thought that the quad should be given a higher value, we have to work with the system which we have today. He suggested having an open dialogue with the ISU to determine the status of the quad. I think we can apply the same suggestion to the triple axel. The IJS isn't perfect, but I rather like that it also emphasizes the importance of the other elements in skating. I much prefer Goebel's articulation of what might be wrong with the current system to Stojko's declarations; I feel that the latter's experiences have deeply colored his views of present-day competition. The website Blazing Blades has posted a Russian commentary by Igor Poroshin (it's translated into English), and while the main subject is Plushenko (and the quad, and Lysacek), he also mentions Stojko. Here is the link. http://kwantifiable.xanga.com/722361...-olympic-loss/ Sorry if it's a little off-topic.
    What an interesting article and viewpoint! Thanks for posting. I've always felt that music could make or break a program.

  13. #13
    Medalist hurrah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    1,690

    0 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by peg2010 View Post
    What an interesting article and viewpoint! Thanks for posting. I've always felt that music could make or break a program.
    It's an interesting article, but I find it highly controversial to argue that an Olympic medal should be determined by the skater's musical taste. If it were the Proms or Grammy Awards, sure, but not the Olympics.

    Regarding this debate, I don't think it can be reduced to asking which combo should have more base value. I think that it has to begin with how the triples should be valued against each other, and how the doubles should be valued against each other and also against the triples. It's also about asking if GoE should have so much weight in determining the scores.

    I think it's a delicate balancing act, but as I have already said, if Mao takes silver despite having performed solidly with three triple-axels, against Yuna's great performance where her double-axels will have played a determining role, then this has got to raise some questions about the present system.

    In any case, I think that both Yuna and Mao gave Olympic medal worthy SP performances. It definitely is not Yuna's fault that she is so well-served by the present scoring system.
    Last edited by hurrah; 02-24-2010 at 07:42 AM.

  14. #14
    Tripping on the Podium Nadia01's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    921

    0 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    There are base values for the combo and it is the sum of the two jumps. If Mao got the correct sum, then there is nothing to debate. Check the protocols.
    3A=8.2 + 1.3 sums up to 9.5
    3Z=6.8 + 6.8 sums up go 13.6

    I am sure Mao can execute a 3Z x 3Z, but she didn't. Probably wanted to get the feel of the 3A before the LP. Her LP will possibly have both.
    Uh. How do you do Triple Lutz Triple Lutz combination?

    Also Mao flutzes.

  15. #15
    Bona Fide Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    2,955

    0 Not allowed!
    I don't know how accurate Kim's sp marks are, one thing surprised me though:
    a rather low GOE Asada got for her 3A+2T combo: +0.60. That's all. It's as if the judges are saying 'Nah, it was ok, but we've seen better. Much much better 3A+2T combos tonight'. Oh, have they really?

    And I'm not even commenting on Gedevanishvili's + 0.20 GOE on that 2A done out of the spiral. Who cares, right?

  16. #16
    Medalist
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    1,471

    0 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Hsuhs View Post
    I don't know how accurate Kim's sp marks are, one thing surprised me though:
    a rather low GOE Asada got for her 3A+2T combo: +0.60. That's all. It's as if the judges are saying 'Nah, it was ok, but we've seen better. Much much better 3A+2T combos tonight'. Oh, have they really?

    And I'm not even commenting on Gedevanishvili's + 0.20 GOE on that 2A done out of the spiral. Who cares, right?
    Actually I think the lack of comparisons might be actually hurting Mao. Since she is the only women doing this combo now. The judges can only compare her with the men or past women like Midori Ito (whose 3A combos were huge). Whereas, there is more comparison for 3-3 and clearly Yuna's are the best in terms of speed and height.

  17. #17
    Bona Fide Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    2,955

    0 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by miki88 View Post
    Actually I think the lack of comparisons might be actually hurting Mao. Since she is the only women doing this combo now. The judges can only compare her with the men or past women like Midori Ito (whose 3A combos were huge).
    I think you're right reg the lack of comparison. But if they keep doing that, a new material for comparison may never arrive. They've already practically done that with harder 3+3s, now they discourage ladies from learning 3A.

  18. #18
    Rinkside
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    38

    0 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by miki88 View Post
    Actually I think the lack of comparisons might be actually hurting Mao. Since she is the only women doing this combo now. The judges can only compare her with the men or past women like Midori Ito (whose 3A combos were huge). Whereas, there is more comparison for 3-3 and clearly Yuna's are the best in terms of speed and height.
    I agree with you, but the judges should not compare the ladies' GOE with the men's, not only for the 3As, but for all other jumps. The men usually have more speed, height, etc than the ladies. The 3Axel for the ladies is so rare these days...and to give it only a 9.5 base value is absurd, and less than the 3lutz/3toe combo. This is not Kim's fault...I adore her skating...but figure skating is a sport, isn't it?

  19. #19
    Bona Fide Member antmanb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    4,844

    0 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by yangjie View Post
    former Canadian medallist Elvis Stojko, suggested that Kim's marks were too high. He noted that Asada had successfully landed a triple Axel - she's the only woman who executes them regularly in competition - and got fewer marks than Kim's easier triple Lutz.
    The argument is similar to the one over whether American Evan Lysacek should have won the gold medal without having landed a quad like his competitor Evgeni Plushenko.

    "Yu-Na Kim is way too far ahead. I don't agree with that," said Stojko. "She skated great. Don't get me wrong, she's awesome. But for Mao to do an awesome triple Axel like that, a triple [Axel] is worth way more than a triple Lutz, triple toe."

    http://www.ctvolympics.ca/figure-ska...u+na+path+gold

    I think another controversial result is about to be born..
    Why does anyone even ask this idiot his opinion.

    He's either been misquoted or he's actually even dumber than I first thought. Perhaps he isn't capable of simple reading comprehension and adding up. Elvis i have a calculater you can have (not borrow but actuall have) so that you can try to get your tiny pea brain around this idea.

    Here's the simple instructions for you:

    1. Look up the values in the scale of values for the following jumps: Triple Axel, Triple Lutz, Triple Toe-loop and double toe-loop.
    2. Write down "Asada" on the left side of your paper.
    3. Underneath "Asada" write down the total points for a Triple Axel and a Double toe-loop.
    4. Write down "Kim" on the right side of the paper.
    5. Underneath "Kim" write down the total points for a Triple Lutz and a Triple Toe.
    6. Now which one has the higher point value.

    Like it or not that's the way with COP. To suggest that a 3Lz/3T is somehow easier than a 3A/2T is just plain stupid. Yes the 3 Axel is a difficult jump, but a 3/3 combination is more difficult than a 3A/2 combination. The double toe is the easiest jump that you will see performed by elite skaters. It is a jump that some adult skaters can land - tacking it onto a 3A is not an impressive feat in and of itself - the triple axel is the only impressive thing about such a combination. Most elite senior (and actually probably junior too) skaters can tack a double toe on the end of any jump.

    And if he wasn't misquoted then someone roll up a copy of the COP and bat him over his nose like a naughty puppy! Kim didn't get more marks for her "easier" triple lutz compared to Mao's harder 3A, she actually got less points, what she got more marks for was her harder triple toe on the end compared to the easier double toe Mao tried.

    Ant

  20. #20
    Tripping on the Podium
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    603

    0 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by miki88 View Post
    ...Midori Ito (whose 3A combos were huge).
    OK I know this is off topic, but MAN I love this lady's 3As I wish more men could jump like her.

    But to return to the topic, I think Stojko has a point about the most difficult jumps though. Most certainly, their base values should be reconsidered, in light of the Plushy vs. Evan controversy and (forbid this happen) a possible Yu-na vs. Mao debate*. But there's nothing that can be done at the moment. Changes come slow through a bureaucratic process. At the moment skaters should work with the system, however flawed, and try to tweak it. He should stop being so vociferous about his opinions. It doesn't help anyone. It just fuels controversy.

    * I want both of the them to skate clean, but can you just imagine the national animosity and nastiness to emerge if this were to happen? Yuck.

Page 1 of 26 1234567891011 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •