Stojko opposes the ladies result | Page 5 | Golden Skate

Stojko opposes the ladies result

Figure88

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 3, 2009
Not saying that *was* the reason, saying I think it *should* be part of the CoP: if the jump is so close to being underrotated, the technical specialist is not sure until the jump is reviewd at least once and maybe more, it shouldn't be eligible for + GOE.

None of Yuna's jumps were close to being under-rotated. She also has great speed, ice coverage, height, smooth exit, all of which is the reason she gets GOE points. Once again :

http://vimeo.com/moogaloop.swf?clip_id=9695868
 
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Sk8n Mama

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 23, 2004
So people can't make some opinions about the judging unless they read the whole manuel of rules?

How can you critique the judging if you don't understand the rules? You can say, "personally, I preferred so-and-so" (you absolutely have the right to your opinion of whose skating you appreciated more) but to critique the judging without knowing the rules is like me trying to critique a dentist just because I have teeth. Besides, it's not some giant manual and anyone can download it from the ISU website, and the ISU has done a good job of trying to make it as easy to understand as possible. If you are truly interested in skating and want to be a knowledgeable fan, you should absolutely read the CoP. Often, if I'm watching a comp, I keep my copy handy. Makes me less outraged if I *think* one skater was better than another if I can glance at my CoP and realize something like, a 3 ax-2toe is worth less than a 3lz-3toe.

Figure88: not sure why you're quoting me there since I'd be in agreement with what you have posted there, and I never said either of them underrotated. I watched on NBC which did a great job on the slow replay and clearly showed both skaters had clean jumps. I, personally, prefer Yu-Na's jumps if you were looking for my official position.
 
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Mafke

Medalist
Joined
Mar 22, 2004
Okay, haven't seen Asada yet, but Kim was very on and hard to imagine much that could beat that. Jumps were all A-OK, high and fast in and out. She doesn't do bendy girl spirals but they're fast and she has wonderful lobey edges (also in her footwork). Also the spins, I can imagine they're not everybody's taste, but they're fast and designed to maximize features.

Anyone got a link to Asada?

You can say, "personally, I preferred so-and-so" (you absolutely have the right to your opinion of whose skating you appreciated more) but to critique the judging without knowing the rules is like me trying to critique a dentist just because I have teeth.

That's an important thing that too many fans forget too often (I'm just as guilty of this as anybody else). Let's take Euro men. If I were a judge, there was no question that Plushenko won. As a viewer and fan I enjoyed Lambiel's performance far more. In this case (not having seen Asada yet) I think Kim did a great job in both areas. I found it very entertaining and enjoyable and as a judge it would get pretty high marks.
 
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miki88

Medalist
Joined
Dec 28, 2009
How can you critique the judging if you don't understand the rules? You can say, "personally, I preferred so-and-so" (you absolutely have the right to your opinion of whose skating you appreciated more) but to critique the judging without knowing the rules is like me trying to critique a dentist just because I have teeth. Besides, it's not some giant manual and anyone can download it from the ISU website, and the ISU has done a good job of trying to make it as easy to understand as possible. If you are truly interested in skating and want to be a knowledgeable fan, you should absolutely read the CoP. Often, if I'm watching a comp, I keep my copy handy. Makes me less outraged if I *think* one skater was better than another if I can glance at my CoP and realize something like, a 3 ax-2toe is worth less than a 3lz-3toe.

Figure88: not sure why you're quoting me there since I'd be in agreement with what you have posted there, and I never said either of them underrotated. I watched on NBC which did a great job on the slow replay and clearly showed both skaters had clean jumps. I, personally, prefer Yu-Na's jumps if you were looking for my official position.

I don't understand why you guys are harsh on me just for an opinion. I don't even think I was making a critique of the judging, because they were mostly assumptions based on what I heard from a friend who has read the CoP in detail regarding the GOE. I have read segments of the CoP (not all of it), so I am not going to say I am an expert on it. If they were wrong, you can point it out to me but you don't have to make it sound like that I have no right to say anything just because I am may not be as knowledgeable. And the dentist analogy doesn't work.
 
Joined
Mar 14, 2006
Okay, haven't seen Asada yet, but Kim was very on and hard to imagine much that could beat that. Jumps were all A-OK, high and fast in and out. She doesn't do bendy girl spirals but they're fast and she has wonderful lobey edges (also in her footwork). Also the spins, I can imagine they're not everybody's taste, but they're fast and designed to maximize features.

Anyone got a link to Asada?
Check out the NBC website.
http://www.nbcolympics.com/video/as...80-b67a-79aa76dcfe1e.html#ladies+sp+mao+asada
 

Mafke

Medalist
Joined
Mar 22, 2004
It doesnt' work. I live outside the US. NBC wants me to go **** myself.
 
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blue_idealist

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 25, 2006
Elvis should just shut up, at least until the Games are over. Why is he so angry all of a sudden, anyway? My guess is because he's not successful in his own life right now.. although that's just a guess since I really don't know much about his life
 

bekalc

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 1, 2006
I just watched the ladies' highlights on Eurosport, and Chris & Simon essentially said the same thing Elvis did: Yu-Na was clearly the best, but Mao was also very strong and 3A combos should be worth more - as should quads and quad combos in the men's. It's not an unreasonable argument, although Elvis could do a better job of presenting it.

That's how I feel about the situation as well. This being said I think you could argue that 3/3 rules should be changed to award harder 3/3s. I mean Yu-na didn't get any extra base value points for doing a 3lutz/3toe instead of a 3flip/3toe. (That's ridiculous) But the scores between Mao and Yu-na should be closer. I suspect the ISU is going to take action about the value of the quad and triple axel after the season is over. I think maybe they could reward harder combos too.
 

Sk8n Mama

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 23, 2004
I don't understand why you guys are harsh on me just for an opinion. I don't even think I was making a critique of the judging, because they were mostly assumptions based on what I heard from a friend who has read the CoP in detail regarding the GOE. I have read segments of the CoP (not all of it), so I am not going to say I am an expert on it. If they were wrong, you can point it out to me but you don't have to make it sound like that I have no right to say anything just because I am may not be as knowledgeable.

No one is saying you can't have an opinion. In fact, I clearly stated that you are welcome to an *opinion* but you must understand that there are people at GS with an excellent grasp on the CoP. In fact there are people here who judge figure skating and have been tested on their knowledge of the CoP. It's insulting to those people to be argued with by someone who admits that their knowldege of the CoP is mostly limited to what they've been told by others. It's not just you miki88. At the Olympics, everyone watches figure skating and thinks they know who should and should not win. The fact is, under the CoP, it's not easy (maybe not possible) to do that anymore. I competed in skating for many years and judged (prior to CoP) and there are things I miss that now effect the placement. Often, when I go back and read the protocols carefully, I get a better understanding of what happened. Case in point: Belbin and Agosto's twizzles in the FD. Just watching the event, I felt the Russians were held up, but when I read the protocols, I have to admit that I missed the mistake on the twizzles.

Again, enjoy watching the skating and discussing it. Have an opinion. But since you admit that you have a weaker grasp of the CoP, be willing to understand that others do have a strong grasp on the CoP and that makes their opinion an educated one.

And, here I said I would not get sucked into this debate....*sigh*
 
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miki88

Medalist
Joined
Dec 28, 2009
No one is saying you can't have an opinion. In fact, I clearly stated that you are welcome to an *opinion* but you must understand that there are people at GS with an excellent grasp on the CoP. In fact there are people here who judge figure skating and have been tested on their knowledge of the CoP. It's insulting to those people to be argued with by someone who admits that their knowldege of the CoP is mostly limited to what they've been told by others. It's not just you miki88. At the Olympics, everyone watches figure skating and thinks they know who should and should not win. The fact is, under the CoP, it's not easy (maybe not possible) to do that anymore. I competed in skating for many years and judged (prior to CoP) and there are things I miss that now effect the placement. Often, when I go back and read the protocols carefully, I get a better understanding of what happened. Case in point: Belbin and Agosto's twizzles in the FD. Just watching the event, I felt the Russians were held up, but when I read the protocols, I have to admit that I missed the mistake on the twizzles.

Again, enjoy watching the skating and discussing it. Have an opinion. But since you admit that you have a weaker grasp of the CoP, be willing to understand that others do have a strong grasp on the CoP and that makes their opinion an educated one.

And, here I said I would not get sucked into this debate....*sigh*

Okay. I will be more careful from now on. :) But I just want to know do height and ice coverage count toward GOE ? (that's what my friend told me).
 

Dodhiyel

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 13, 2003
I regret to say that I have not had time to read this entire thread, but I have read enough to want to assert one thing.

I do not think this is a "wuzrobbed" scenario. I think that some people are simply trying to say that, in their opinion, the rules need changing. That is a very different claim from saying a skater "wuzrobbed" under the present rules. It is, rather, an advisement about the future of skating, which everyone has a right to offer, and most especially, Olympic medallists of yesteryear.

I am a fan of all three of the ladies leading after the SP, by the way. I do not have time right now to contribute to the discussion any further, but I do think the discussion itself is legitimate and valuable. If no one were ever allowed to say the current system needs certain changes, then there would be little point in having discussion boards in the first place.
 

Raatkirani

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 22, 2006
I suspect the ISU is going to take action about the value of the quad and triple axel after the season is over. I think maybe they could reward harder combos too.

ITA. There is definitely something wrong with a scoring system that doesn't reward "rarer" jumps (quad for men, 3A for women) the way they should be. In women's skating, many women from past years and this competition have been been able to do triple triples, but maybe three or four in history have successfully done the triple axel. I think it's obvious which jump is harder just based on the statistics. Truth be told, I'm fed up with the COP because it's still a subjective system, it's still easy to manipulate, and it doesn't reward athleticism as much as it should.

As far as Elvis goes, I don't see anything wrong with his opinion. The system is far from perfect and he's just voicing his frustration.
 

bmelanie

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 16, 2008
If that was the case, Kim should not get huge GOE on her triple triple combo. Her 3T was barely rotated.
Her flip was also barely rotated. NBC showed a super slowmo at the end.
Both girls barely rotated their jumps, just one get bigger GOE?

I actually had my doubts about the 3T myself when I watched the close-up slo-mo, but then I realized as I was watching the full-body slo-mo that when she was taking off her right foot was angled to the right, rather than parallel to the direction she was facing. I don't know if this is a legit point, but sometimes watching only the feet can be deceptive.
 

DesertRoad

Final Flight
Joined
Oct 31, 2005
For people who missed it, let me reiterate what antmanb said:

A triple axel is already worth more than a triple lutz. Durrr, anybody can look that up and find that out. And nobody disagrees with that. Mao earned more points on the triple axel than Kim on the triple lutz. What gave Kim more points on the combo is the triple toe. See, a triple toe is worth more than a double toe, because durrrr, the double toe is a pretty damn basic jump. What Elvis, who's been bonked in the head one too many times in his karate matches, really means is: he wants the double toe to be worth more. :laugh:

This is what people don't get about the COP. They want to hang it all on one jump or one move. The COP changes the scoring in skating to a cumulative and additive system, in which all your elements count. You can't just do one difficult element and expect a huge total score, you have to do make sure all your elements are difficult and do them all well to get a huge total score. It's a very rational way of measuring technical achievement in figure skating. It doesn't let the wow factor of one move obsolete the rest of the score.
 

FlattFan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
Yes they showed Rachael and the second jump and maybe both on her 3x3 was ur'ed. . Even Scott said so and he rarely goes against an American skater. Her solo 3Lutz was also questionable and sloppy.
Rachael and Miki were treated very kindly last night as both made mistakes.

Scott said a lot of crappy things last night. But when did he say both 3x3 was URed? Both Scott and Sandra said the 3T was close, the 3L was close. But the 3F was fine, they said. Why do you like to make up things?
 

bekalc

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 1, 2006
For people who missed it, let me reiterate what antmanb said:

A triple axel is already worth more than a triple lutz. Durrr, anybody can look that up and find that out. And nobody disagrees with that. Mao earned more points on the triple axel than Kim on the triple lutz. What gave Kim more points on the combo is the triple toe. See, a triple toe is worth more than a double toe, because durrrr, the double toe is a pretty damn basic jump. What Elvis, who's been bonked in the head one too many times in his karate matches, really means is: he wants the double toe to be worth more. :laugh:

This is what people don't get about the COP. They want to hang it all on one jump or one move. The COP changes the scoring in skating to a cumulative and additive system, in which all your elements count. You can't just do one difficult element and expect a huge total score, you have to do make sure all your elements are difficult and do them all well to get a huge total score. It's a very rational way of measuring technical achievement in figure skating. It doesn't let the wow factor of one move obsolete the rest of the score.

Desert. Its not rational that Yu-na's base value for doing a 3lutz/3toe and a single flip is the same as doing a 3flip/3toe and a single lutz. It's also not rational that Plushenko's base value would be the same if he did a 4/3toe and a single 3toe and if he did a single 4toe and a 3toe/3toe. That's not rational. It's pretty darn clear that a 4/3toe is significantly harder than a 3toe/3toe, and that its significantly harder to do the 4/3toe than it is to do a single 4toe.
 
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Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
That's how I feel about the situation as well. This being said I think you could argue that 3/3 rules should be changed to award harder 3/3s. I mean Yu-na didn't get any extra base value points for doing a 3lutz/3toe instead of a 3flip/3toe. (That's ridiculous) But the scores between Mao and Yu-na should be closer. I suspect the ISU is going to take action about the value of the quad and triple axel after the season is over. I think maybe they could reward harder combos too.
ITA. :agree: Maybe give some sort of bonus for making the first jump of the combination a more difficult one.

Something else I'd love to see: second half bonuses only for triple/quad jumps, and then maybe we'll stop seeing everyone doing those 2A-2T combinations. I have some other ideas, but they don't belong in this thread...
 

bekalc

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 1, 2006
ITA. :agree: Maybe give some sort of bonus for making the first jump of the combination a more difficult one.

Something else I'd love to see: second half bonuses only for triple/quad jumps, and then maybe we'll stop seeing everyone doing those 2A-2T combinations. I have some other ideas, but they don't belong in this thread...

What about a reward though to encourage people to go for 3/3/3s and 4/3/3s as well...(Just a thought) The way combinations are rewarded in this system drives me nuts. I mean Yu-na could probably do a 3flip/3toe and a 3lutz/3toe in her program. She's landing both of those combinations in practice on Olympic ice. But she's going to do the double axel/3toe instead. Because she gets no extra points for going for the harder combo, and because the combination is easier she can put it a transition into and Get put it at the end of her program.

This being said I'm tired of people arguing that Mao is the only one pushing the sport. Yes, more ladies have done 3lutz/3toes, but Yu-na was the only one at this competition. That combination isn't exactly easy either.
 

DesertRoad

Final Flight
Joined
Oct 31, 2005
Desert. Its not rational that Yu-na's base value for doing a 3lutz/3toe and a single flip is the same as doing a 3flip/3toe and a single lutz. It's also not rational that Plushenko's base value would be the same if he did a 4/3toe and a single 3toe and if he did a single 4toe and a 3toe/3toe. That's not rational. It's pretty darn clear that a 4/3toe is significantly harder than a 3toe/3toe, and that its significantly harder to do the 4/3toe than it is to do a single 4toe.

So you're arguing that the 3lutz/3toe should be worth more. Well, ok, that doesn't really pertain to Elvis' argument or my counterargument. Let me clarify: I do not think the COP is in any way, shape or form sensible or even close to it. What is rational is the idea that individual elements add up to form a total technical score, and one difficult element with easier elements doesn't trump a program with less difficulty on one element, but more difficulty in other elements.
 

FlattFan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
This being said I'm tired of people arguing that Mao is the only one pushing the sport. Yes, more ladies have done 3lutz/3toes, but Yu-na was the only one at this competition. That combination isn't exactly easy either.

Technically, Mao pushed the sport in 2008. She was doing 3F-3T, 3F-3R and 3A. She pushed Yuna to go for the 3L-3T, partly.
I thought Yuna was going to lead by 2 points. Her SP wasn't as good as SA. Some part, she was ahead of the music. I seriously thought she was going to get a high 75.
She's the best in the SP, but the judges clearly went overboard with the score.
 
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