Stojko opposes the ladies result

miki88 said:

That's not true! Her loop is her other most consistent jump. I don't think she has a big problem with her salchow, because the few times she did do it, she got it ratified. The only nemeisis she has is her lutz, but she only left it out for this season. I agree with those who said that the 3A is a signature jump for Mao because she's been using it since junior days, when she had no problem with her jumps and certainly didn't need it.

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Her loop is her most consistent jump. It's her absolute money, much more consistent than her 3A. That said, I think it was downgraded as recently as 4CC. Still, though.

No salchow because she doesn't like it, and her lutz has real problems.

Marrymeyunakim said:

Her loop is her most consistent jump. It's her absolute money, much more consistent with her 3A. That said, I think it was downgraded as recently as 4CC. Still, though.

No salchow because she doesn't like it, and her lutz has real problems.

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I always didn't get why Mao rather struggle with her lutz than just do the sal. I guess because sal is worth less or she's just deciding based on her emotions. I admit some of her decisions tend to be irrational.

Blades of Passion said:

You confuse and bewilder me.

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This has long since been admitted an error on my part and corrected some time ago.
So don't be bewildered, be wild again

Does Elvis have a point? Yes, much to my dismay. Is his narrow minded view of figure skating a good thing? No.

The plus side: I believe Blades of Passion has mentioned this before, but doing a combo is harder than doing the two jumps. Doing a combo with a harder jump is harder than with an easier jump (ie , 3Lz+3toe > 3toe+3toe), and it makes sense that there is an additional reward beyond the simple base values (and in an lp, the reward comes from having more jump options to maximize points). I can imagine a multiplier of say 1.1 to the harder jump to give credit for the risk.

But the rest of his point just falls apart. Lets just focus on the jumps: he ignores quality. He ignores other elements. He ignores layout. He ignores choreography. Essentially, he ignores the sport. It's remarkably narrow minded, and yes - suggests that he needs to get over himself before he makes a mockery of his two OSM and three World championships. People will start forgetting what a remarkable competitor he was.

Spun Silver said:

Ant? How can you say 3A-2T is easier than 3-3 when many (lady) skaters have done the latter and a tiny handful the former?

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Because a 3/3 is harder than a 3/2. While the triple axel is a special jump in and of itself it is still "only" a triple jump - with a point value that was recently increased because people didn't think it was worth enough, so it is worth what? 2.5 points more than a triple lutz. That is a large increase. Even more so when you conisder that the differential between every other type of triple jump is only 0.5 points. So the point differential is already five time that of the differences between the rest of the other triples.

Tell me this - what do you think is more difficult a 3Lz+2T or a 3F+3T? Or this - a 3F+2T or a 3Lp+3T? I think the 3/3 is harder everytime, so why is the 3A any different - it is the next hardest triple but the 2T is throw away. That was the main point of my post . Or maybe conisder this - a 4T+2T combination compared to a 3A+3T combination? That to me is cut and dry as well - the 3/3 is more difficult than the 4/2.

My main frustration in listening to the arguments is that the scale of values has not changed in what? 18 months? 2 years? The triple axel (and quad's) value has increased and there hasn't been some surprise change all of a sudden. Everyone knows what things are worth on paper. Everyone knows (though barely anyone agrees) that COP does not treat combinations as more difficult than the jumps done individually, so with this in mind, looking at COP who in this example has done more content if the following jumps are executed in single passes:

Skater A: 3A, 3F, 2A, 2T
Skater B: 3Lz, 3F, 2A, 3T

Two triples to three is easy to spot. The first skater did the hardest triple in the book, together with the third hardest triple, the hardest double and the easiest double. The second skater did the second and third hardest triples in the book, the easiest triple and the hardest double. That's how COP scores it.

But even if you don't agree with the scoring of combination (which I don't) and you think the system should be tweaked (which I do) I still don't think you end up with skater A beating skater B because everybody knows that the second (and third) jumps in combinations are more difficult comparatively than the first. So if you use a system like e.g. gkelly has sugested (which i personally like) where the first jump in a combo is given a 0.1 multiplier and the second jump is given a 0.2 multiplier, then you still end up with skater B getting more points because doing the same jump with a whole revolution more as the second jump is worth more than doing the first jump with half a revolution extra.

And as for tacking on the 2T - correct me if I'm wrong since I"m not a technical person, but aren't skaters often omitting to tack it on because they lack speed or the first jump wasn't landed quite right? I don't think it's to be minimized... esp. after a 3A!

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No i don't think skaters are omitting 2Ts at all. Some skaters notorisouly forget or don't maximuise points by putting 2T on the end of 3/2s and 3/3 combinations. But i have seen a whole host of downright fugly 2Ts and 2Lps on the end of 3 jumps combos just because they must. I've seen skaters (like Kevin VDPs Oly LP) where the skater has to put the double toe on the back of the triple or risk losing is as a phantom SEQ because of Zayak violations so despite a seriously flawed triple they easily tacked the double (and in Kevni's case a triple!) toe onto the end of the combination.

I think people are up in arms about the results of Mao and Yuna (which was always going to happen). To have a sensible debate about the way the elements are scored we need to not personalise it with the skaters. If the scale of values is to remain the same for men and women I don't see how you can make a 3A/2T cmobination worth more than a 3Lz/3T combination without making the men's competition regress even further becuase the message is - hey guys 3a/2s or 4T/2s are worth more than 3/3s or 3A/3s and that to me just feels wrong. I think people want to change the rules because their favourite isn't in the lead, and that is not a good reason to change the rules.

I think Stojko is helping to focus a debate, so why the problem with his speaking up? He seems to enjoy being in the thick of controversy. Not every former champion would be up for that.

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I have no problem with stojko speaking up as long as he doesn't misrepresent facts to present his skewed argument. Saying that a triple lutz is worth more than a triple axel, is an out and out lie. Saying that a triple lutz combination is worth more points than a triple axel combination is misleading because it could be a 3Lz+4T combination and a 3A+1T combination...in which case DUH! Missing out facts like - the reason the combiantion scored more was because the difference between a 3 Lutz and a 3 Axel is 2.5 points, but the difference between a double toe and a triple toe is 3 points (I know i've got the points wrong because i haven't looke it up but for the purposes of making the point the actual point difference doesn't matter) so overall the system worksa it out as more valuable does many things. It explains the reality of what happened to the lesser informed public, he coudl even go one better and say, not only that but the system rewords X,y, and z in the GOE which is why one combination got 2 extra GOE points to only 0.60 extra points for the other. But it also then gives a good platform, having stated the facts correctly to go on to say , and that is why i disagree with the way the system works, i would prefer to see A,b, and c changes effect to achieve x, y and z outcomes. And from there we can debate it!

Ant

ImaginaryPogue said:

The plus side: I believe Blades of Passion has mentioned this before, but doing a combo is harder than doing the two jumps. Doing a combo with a harder jump is harder than with an easier jump (ie , 3Lz+3toe > 3toe+3toe), and it makes sense that there is an additional reward beyond the simple base values.

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True.

miki88 said:

Well you did say the judges do not compare skaters to others, or even the skater to themselves right?

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No i didn't - go back and read my post i never made that statement.

miki88 said:

So people can't make some opinions about the judging unless they read the whole manuel of rules?

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Of cours eyou can but if you don't know the rules how can you surmise that they are being applied correctly or incorrectly?

miki88 said:

BTW I said the judges MIGHT not they were definitely judging that way or anything. If you don't like my opinion, you can just ignore~~~but I and others have the right to make one right?

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Of course you can post your opinions, don't i have the right to post why i disagree? You can always ignore my opinions if they bother you that much

Ant

Just want to say that I now feel I stand completely and totally corrected about raising the value of the 3a for ladies. Given how much more it is already worth than the 3lutz, and how that difference is exponentially so much greater than the difference between all the rest of the jumps, it's clear that the system already values it hugely. Looks like the problem is that the scoring of combos may not correctly reflect their difficulty, and perhaps rulemakers should re-evaluate how the zayak rule plays into combos, double vs. triple axels, etc. Clearly I need to review my CoP knowledge ~ well, actually, that is if I care enough and I find that kinda hard these days, sadly ... but this thread has been very informative!

Here is a little hint of how Kwan thinks about this issue.

http://content.usatoday.com/communi.../02/womens-short-program-wows-michelle-kwan/1

How psychologically defeating is it to land a big jump like the triple axel and still place second?

"Well, that's competition. Sometimes your best isn't good enough. … It's all what the judges are looking for, and apparently (Kim) is what the judges are looking for when it comes to jump quality and spin quality and her edges and all that,'' Kwan said.

newvie said:

She did pursue to have it. That's how she met Orser. She went to him to learn 3A at first.
I even watched a video clip that showed her practicing it. She faltered at the end but she almost made it.
I heard that it was Orser who recommended her to give up on 3A.
I guess it's because she was already struggling with injuries and it seemed too risky to learn a new jump for her body.
But I still think she would've made it if she didn't have other choices but to make it.

I think the competition between Mao and Yuna have pushed and helped each other and the skating world.
The ladies' filed would have become much less interesting without them.

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Thanks to you, Ant, and others for this passionate and informative discussion. As mentioned, kudos to Team Kim to have studied the point system so well as how it pertains to Kim's ability. No doubt that many of her jump GOEs were better in the short program. I hope the officials would seriously consider raising the base value of the 3As and quads more in the future. As a fan, it is just my obvesrvation that 3/3s are more common than 3As and quads. We are in for a big treat tonight; can't wait!

Fan123 said:

I hope the officials would seriously consider raising the base value of the 3As and quads more in the future. As a fan, it is just my obvesrvation that 3/3s are more common than 3As and quads. We are in for a big treat tonight; can't wait!

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As you might know, the base value of 3A is increased very recently. Nevertheless, if it must be increased again, upto what or until when? Until 3A+2T gets higher points than 3Lz+3T? I am afraid it will make a massive conspiracy theory.

I think it's a delicate balancing act, but as I have already said, if Mao takes silver despite having performed solidly with three triple-axels, against Yuna's great performance where her double-axels will have played a determining role, then this has got to raise some questions about the present system.


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seriously...? double-axles plays a determing role? lol

In my opinion, Yuna should have received higher score, in light of the fact the presentation scores is only slightly higher than that of Mao's..

Yuna's textbook Jumps, not rotating her head about half rotation more (look at the snap shot photos of Mao's jump ) to make triple rotation ( I don't think she does it to cheat intentionally but I guess it became habitual by practicing in such way for long time), should be rewarded accordingly with high marks.

Well, but I have to say..she does play smart ..knowing the way to get high scores under current scoring system, yet there were many cases she didn't receive her well-deserved score ( again, in my opinion)

Also, to my eyes, Joannie Rochette should have marked higher... ...well, I was just touched to see her performance....and she even executed all elements in a wonderful manner....

Love_Skate said:

As you might know, the base value of 3A is increased very recently. Nevertheless, if it must be increased again, upto what or until when? Until 3A+2T gets higher points than 3Lz+3T? I am afraid it will make a massive conspiracy theory.

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I just realized by reading this thread that the BV of the 3A was increased recently. Regarding any conspiracy theory...honestly, my suggestion as a fan to raise it has nothing to do with Kim or Asada. The 3A (and the quad) is so rare among the ladies, and I think the BV disparity between the standard lutz, flip, loop, salchow, and toe should have been much greater pre Kim vs Asada.

bethissoawesome said:

4)both have good height and ice coverage (Mao's 3A has excellet height and ice coverage) and Yu-Na' 3Lz+3T is fantastic.

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There were pages of debate on this (I think it's in the "scientific analysis of Mao's 3A"). Mao has great height, but little ice coverage. The difference is evident when watched live (as Scott goes on and on about), but it's also clear in videos. Yu-na covers a massive 25 feet in her 3Lz-3T (NYT). I don't have an exact number for Mao, but she's the type of skater who jumps and executes the element through quick rotations. Yu-na, she launches into the jump with great speed, uses the torque from the preparation and then translates that into jumps. The difference is also evident in how the two girls prepared for the Olympics. Yu-na, in recent years, focused on increasing her muscle power, strengthening her general physique, thus, increasing the speed and strength with which she enters a jump, so that she has now lost that ethereal quality for an image of improved athleticism (i.e. she gained weight). Mao, after her Grand Prix season, underwent a drastic diet in order to reduce her body fat percentage to 7% and improve her chances of nailing that 3A by making faster rotations easier. Yu-na has slower rotations, but completes her jumps by making use of the amazing ice she covers (hence, commentators say she jumps like a man). We're talking about two very different approaches to jumping, which result in different degrees of ice coverage. I'm not saying one's better than the other, but the checkpoint asks for both qualities, so, no, Mao does not get this point.

bethissoawesome said:

3)varied position in the air could apply to Mao (raising one arm on the 2T on her 3A+2T).

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Mao did not raise her arm on the 2T (the Tano Jump). I checked just in case I had it wrong That point goes to neither, I believe.

stella0321 said:

I think it's a delicate balancing act, but as I have already said, if Mao takes silver despite having performed solidly with three triple-axels, against Yuna's great performance where her double-axels will have played a determining role, then this has got to raise some questions about the present system.


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seriously...? double-axles plays a determing role? lol

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The statement was made in regard to the long program that will be performed today. In it, Yuna will include three double axels, two of which are combinations. One combination, the 2axel-3toe loop, is, I think, is perfectly fine to execute as an indicate of the skater's ability, and if she executes it, she will deserve the points she garners for it. The other combination, however, 2axel-2toe loop-2loop, is another kettle of fish altogether. It's an easy combo for which she gets 6.9 brownie points. If you consider the fact that Mao gets 9.5 points for doing 3axel-2toe loop, the scoring system is, how can I put it, really insensitive to what the skaters are actually executing. Yuna really should not be allowed to garner so many points so easily, and she should be forced to attempt a 3loop instead.

miki88 said:

That's not true! Her loop is her other most consistent jump. I don't think she has a big problem with her salchow, because the few times she did do it, she got it ratified. The only nemeisis she has is her lutz, but she only left it out for this season. I agree with those who said that the 3A is a signature jump for Mao because she's been using it since junior days, when she had no problem with her jumps and certainly didn't need it. I think those who criticize Mao for leaving out jumps are being unfair (especially in regards to the lutz). Mao has been doing her lutz all the time prior to this season and people always criticize her for flutzing even after she corrected her edge. Now, she takes it out, some people continue to criticize her for not doing it:sheesh:

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I seem to recall that she went through a phase where she was trying/hoping to land a quad loop and that was messing up her timing on the triple. I'm not so sure about the salchow, but it seems she's left it out a lot. And AFAICT she never fixed the flutz which is why she's leaving it out now. That is her flutz was pretty consistent but she was not so consistent with the lutz (I'd go ahead and flutz and take the edge hit and I'm not sure why she doesn't just do that).

Fan123 said:

I just realized by reading this thread that the BV of the 3A was increased recently. Regarding any conspiracy theory...honestly, my suggestion as a fan to raise it has nothing to do with Kim or Asada. The 3A (and the quad) is so rare among the ladies, and I think the BV disparity between the standard lutz, flip, loop, salchow, and toe should have been much greater pre Kim vs Asada.

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The base values of the triple jumps are as follow:
3A(8.2) 3Lz(6.0) 3F(5.5) 3Lo(5.0) 3S(4.5) 3T(4.0)
The point gap between two jumps is 0.5 except for 3A, which is higher than 3Lz by 2.2, more than FOUR times higher point gaps than others.
Do you think it is not enough? Then, what points will be satisfactory for 3A? I think it is until when the fans who support skaters executing 3A(or quad) are satisfied.

dlgpffps said:

There were pages of debate on this (I think it's in the "scientific analysis of Mao's 3A"). Mao has great height, but little ice coverage. The difference is evident when watched live (as Scott goes on and on about), but it's also clear in videos. Yu-na covers a massive 25 feet in her 3Lz-3T (NYT). I don't have an exact number for Mao, but she's the type of skater who jumps and executes the element through quick rotations. Yu-na, she launches into the jump with great speed, uses the torque from the preparation and then translates that into jumps.

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If we are talking about Asada's 3A vs Kim's 3Lz, you're correct. However, from a fan's point of view, the 3A usually covers less distance because it's an edge jump with no toe-pick to propel the skater. The 3Lz jump does, especially when it requires the skater to have long backward glide into the jump...to gain more momentum in time for the take-off. The same seems to be true for the loop and salchow vs the flip and toe. This is just my obvservation of course as a fan, not a jump expert by any means. Perhaps others want to chime in?

Love_Skate said:

The base values of the triple jumps are as follow:
3A(8.2) 3Lz(6.0) 3F(5.5) 3Lo(5.0) 3S(4.5) 3T(4.0)
The point gap between two jumps is 0.5 except for 3A, which is higher than 3Lz by 2.2, more than FOUR times higher point gaps than others.
Do you think it is not enough? Then, what points will be satisfactory for 3A? I think it is until when the fans who support skaters executing 3A(or quad) are satisfied.

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Thanks for letting me know of the BV for each 3 jumps. To be honest, I'm quite shocked that the 3A is only worth 2.2 higher than the 3Lz. To me, it should be worth 4.0 points. I'm not in favor of increasing it each time another "conspiracy" comes along either. Do you know the original BV of the 3A and its increased pattern value?

Fan123 said:

However, from a fan's point of view, the 3A usually covers less distance because it's an edge jump with no toe-pick to propel the skater. The 3Lz jump does, especially when it requires the skater to have long backward glide into the jump...to gain more momentum in time for the take-off. The same seems to be true for the loop and salchow vs the flip and toe.

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Yes, very good point, but I was indeed discussing the 3A-2T and 3Lz-3T. Sorry, I didn't make that clear. I'll return with further analysis on the jumps, but Mao's 3F seemed to cover less ice than Yu-na's. There's no clear way of determining. Maybe I can use the boards and calculate the camera angle and stuff... Well, I might not even get to it... Maybe someone else can?