Stojko opposes the ladies result | Page 16 | Golden Skate

Stojko opposes the ladies result

Joined
Jul 11, 2003
This Mao v. Yuna thread is not exactly based on Stoyko's claim that a 3A is required for the Ladies competitition.

Thinking about the results of the CoP: if Mao executes a 3A and afterwards a 3Ax2T she deserves the points allotted for those elements. If Yuna executes a 3x3, and a 3x3x2 she deserves the points allotted for those elements. ----- There is no argument here under existing procedures.

The rest of the programs of both skaters should be judged in the same normal way given the GoEs and PCs which have much to do with opinions. This could be argumentive depending on what one considers 'artistry'. It's not unlike Wagner v. Verdi although with these two blokes, it's clear both had artistry; and it therefore becomes a preference.

IMO, Wagner and Verdi are miles ahead of Mao and Yuna on Artistry, but still either Mao or Yuna could be a preference of the viewer. Hopefully, it is not based on their Nationality.
 

dlgpffps

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 14, 2009
This Mao v. Yuna thread is not exactly based on Stoyko's claim that a 3A is required for the Ladies competitition.

Wait, I thought he said that the margin between Yu-na's score and Mao's was too big because Mao has a 3A and Yu-na has a 3-3? I don't remember having read anything about a 3A being a required element. That would be absurd. No one could skate except Mao then :laugh:.
 

FlattFan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
From another thread, hurrah wrote:


That's what everyone is talking about. He/she is basically saying that COP was designed for Yuna and keeps Mao from winning.

Well, there's a point in that.
In the SP, all ladies must do a 2A. Men can sub a 2A for a 3A if they have it. Ladies should be able, too.
 

Nadine

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 3, 2003
Kinda off topic, but Elvis Stojko reminds me of Toller Cranston, there's a reason they both live in Mexico; they're both alike. Outspoken, mercurial, steadfast & true, and very very very strong.
 

Phoenix347

Final Flight
Joined
Oct 24, 2009
This Mao v. Yuna thread is not exactly based on Stoyko's claim that a 3A is required for the Ladies competitition.

Thinking about the results of the CoP: if Mao executes a 3A and afterwards a 3Ax2T she deserves the points allotted for those elements. If Yuna executes a 3x3, and a 3x3x2 she deserves the points allotted for those elements. ----- There is no argument here under existing procedures.

The rest of the programs of both skaters should be judged in the same normal way given the GoEs and PCs which have much to do with opinions. This could be argumentive depending on what one considers 'artistry'. It's not unlike Wagner v. Verdi although with these two blokes, it's clear both had artistry; and it therefore becomes a preference.

IMO, Wagner and Verdi are miles ahead of Mao and Yuna on Artistry, but still either Mao or Yuna could be a preference of the viewer. Hopefully, it is not based on their Nationality.

Wagner? She's a nice skater but I wouldn't say her artistry is her main strength. Her presentation is not as polished as Mao or Yuna in my opinion. I do like her but she needs to smooth out her skating flows and not be so anxious. I do think she has a lot of potential, however. I've never seen Verdi so I can't comment on her.
 

dlgpffps

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 14, 2009
Well, there's a point in that.
In the SP, all ladies must do a 2A. Men can sub a 2A for a 3A if they have it. Ladies should be able, too.

Yeah, I agree that there should be a degree of flexibility. I remember Mao in Junior Worlds 2006. She faltered in the short because she was required to do a 3-2 instead of a 3-3, which she was allowed to do in the senior circuit. After that, junior skaters were allowed to include a 3-3. Mao's the only skater who could substitute a 2A with a 3A at the moment, but who knows? In the future, there may be 3As all over the place. The sport evolves. There should be more room in which to explore and experiment.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
...that is why I'm curious to know the history of the BV of the 3A since the inception of the point system.

There may have been some "history" in preliminary versions of the CoP, but as far as I can recollect it went something like this.

Each of the triple jumps was worth haslf a point more than the next easiest, so it went like

3T = 4,0, 3S = 4.5, 3Lo = 5.0, 3F = 5.5, 3Lz = 6.0.

But the triple Axel was regarded as much more difficult, so instead of getting 6.5 points they pegged it at 7.5. A quad toe was even harder, so it got 9.0.

Thus it was recognized from the beginning that these jumps were way ahead of the other triples.

The double Axel was regarded as quite a bit easier than any triple, so it got only 3.3 base value.

After the 2008 season, I believe, they revisited the base values and decided that there should be an even bigger gap between the other triples and the triple Axel. The base value of the triple Axel was raised to 8.2 points, making it worth 2.2 points more than a triple Lutz and closer to a quad. But since the quad is harder yet, they also raised the value of a quad toe to 9.8. This maintained (almost) the reletive difference between a 3A and a quad, but separated those two jumps even farther from the "mere triples."

In fact, they decided that the triple Axel, with its three-and-a-half revolutions was more like a junior quad than a super triple, so now they list the 3A with the quads, with the 3A being the lowest.

To be consistent, they then decided to put the double Axel in with the triples instead of with the doubles. So they pegged the double Axel at 3.5, then went up the list of triples by half-point increments as before. To make sure that skaters did not take undo advantage of this, they limited the number of double Axels allowed in a program to three.

So now the proposal from Elvis and others is, basically, do it again. Raise the value of the triple Axel another 7 tenths or so.

My personal opinion is that instead of doing this, the ISU will tackle the problem of combinations afresh. It is more difficult to do two triples in combination than to do the same two triples separately. It is more difficult to do a 2T/3T than to do a 3T/2T, yet the two combos receive the same base value. This is an area that needs attention, in my humble opinion.
 
Last edited:

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
Well, there's a point in that.
In the SP, all ladies must do a 2A. Men can sub a 2A for a 3A if they have it. Ladies should be able, too.

Hey, I don't have a problem with that.
I think people are just bothered that this poster is basically creating a conspiracy theory that the system is rigged so Yuna win.

But let's say they change the rule and allows her to do that...So Mao would have a 3A (8.2) as her Axel jump. Then what would she have for her combo? She doesn't do a 3-3 so likely the combo would be a 3F-2T (6.8) and then maybe a 3L (5)for her triple-jump. Base value for jumpes = 20 Her base value for her SP on Tuesday =18.5. So it's a little bit better, but not by much.
 

gsrossano

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 11, 2006
quote from speedy

"The system is not perfect but its structure is good and satisfactory because it quantifies a subjective concept. How many people can understand if a piano player is perfect? Figure skating is the same. Skaters must be well-rounded competitors and shouldn't be just valued for their jumps. If you want to jump, go do track and field or pole vault. This is not the circus."
 

hurrah

Medalist
Joined
Aug 8, 2009
Wow, I go away for a while, come back, to find out that I have been a topic of discussion. Kind of neat! I have to say that this is not my first time to be accused a 'Mao bot' by Yuna fans. Ant, for example, has been very quick to label me in the past as a 'Mao bot'. I do find it kind of disparaging as I have never accused posters I have been in discussion with that they are 'Yuna bots'. What is a 'bot' anyway?

I would ask to beg pardon for highlighting Yuna and Mao maybe too much. However, in defense of myself, this is the direction that the thread's title: Stojko opposes the ladies result, would suggest. I don't understand why it would be more appropriate to talk about Cynthia Phaneuf's case against Mao, for example.

Also, I think it is rather extreme to label me as a bot as I have not made any personal attacks on Yuna's looks, personality, conduct outside the skating rink, so forth. Indeed, I think those who label me as a 'bot' simply don't want to read anything critical about Yuna's skating skills, even when it is acknowledged that the general point being made is valid.
 

Fan123

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
There may have been some "history" in preliminary versions of the CoP, but as far as I can recollect it went something like this.

Each of the triple jumps was worth haslf a point more than the next easiest, so it went like

3T = 4,0, 3S = 4.5, 3Lo = 5.0, 3F = 5.5, 3Lz = 6.0.

But the triple Axel was regarded as much more difficult, so instead of getting 6.5 points they pegged it at 7.5. A quad toe was even harder, so it got 9.0.

Thus it was recognized from the beginning that these jumps were way ahead of the other triples.

The double Axel was regarded as quite a bit easier than any triple, so it got only 3.3 base value.

After the 2008 season, I believe, they revisited the base values and decided that there should be an even bigger gap between the other triples and the triple Axel. The base value of the triple Axel was raised to 8.2 points, making it worth 2.2 points more than a triple Lutz and closer to a quad. But since the quad is harder yet, they also raised the value of a quad toe to 9.8. This maintained (almost) the reletive difference between a 3A and a quad, but separated those two jumps even farther from the "mere triples."

In fact, they decided that the triple Axel, with its three-and-a-half revolutions was more like a junior quad than a super triple, so now they list the 3A with the quads, with the 3A being the lowest.

To be consistent, they then decided to put the double Axel in with the triples instead of with the doubles. So they pegged the double Axel at 3.5, then went up the list of triples by half-point increments as before. To make sure that skaters did not take undo advantage of this, they limited the number of double Axels allowed in a program to three.

So now the proposal from Elvis and others is, basically, do it again. Raise the value of the triple Axel another 7 tenths or so.

My personal opinion is that instead of doing this, the ISU will tackle the problem of combinations afresh. It is more difficult to do two triples in combination than to do the same two triples separately. It is more difficult to do a 2T/3T than to do a 3T/2T, yet the two combos receive the same base value. This is an area that needs attention, in my humble opinion.
Thanks Mathman, for that history! In lieu of this debate, would you raise the BV of the 3A and Quad to be higher in addition to the jump combinations? Why or why not?
 

chloepoco

Medalist
Joined
Nov 1, 2009
quote from speedy

"The system is not perfect but its structure is good and satisfactory because it quantifies a subjective concept. How many people can understand if a piano player is perfect? Figure skating is the same. Skaters must be well-rounded competitors and shouldn't be just valued for their jumps. If you want to jump, go do track and field or pole vault. This is not the circus."

Interesting. Do you know when he made this statement?
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
What is a 'bot' anyway?

A "robot." That is, someone who just mechanically heaps uncritical praise on his favorite and disparages his favorite's opponents without engaging his brain.

I don't understand why it would be more appropriate to talk about Cynthia Phaneuf's case against Mao, for example.
Because I am a Phaneuf-bot. It's all about Cynthia! :yes:
 

gourry

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Wagner? She's a nice skater but I wouldn't say her artistry is her main strength. Her presentation is not as polished as Mao or Yuna in my opinion. I do like her but she needs to smooth out her skating flows and not be so anxious. I do think she has a lot of potential, however. I've never seen Verdi so I can't comment on her.

I think Joe was referring to Wagner the composer. ;)
Personally I perfer Verdi to Wagner, he is just too heavy for me...
 
Joined
Mar 14, 2006
Wagner? She's a nice skater but I wouldn't say her artistry is her main strength. Her presentation is not as polished as Mao or Yuna in my opinion. I do like her but she needs to smooth out her skating flows and not be so anxious. I do think she has a lot of potential, however. I've never seen Verdi so I can't comment on her.
Too bad. Her Traviata program is something special. But to see her Falstaff... hilarious, effervescent, and heartbreaking all at the same time! :rock:
 

babyalligator

On the Ice
Joined
May 18, 2009
wagner vs verdi...lol neither are my preferred composers (though if i had to choose, i would choose verdi most definitely)...if we're talking opera then PUCCINI ALL THE WAY! :D
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
Wow, I go away for a while, come back, to find out that I have been a topic of discussion. Kind of neat! I have to say that this is not my first time to be accused a 'Mao bot' by Yuna fans. Ant, for example, has been very quick to label me in the past as a 'Mao bot'. I do find it kind of disparaging as I have never accused posters I have been in discussion with that they are 'Yuna bots'. What is a 'bot' anyway?

I would ask to beg pardon for highlighting Yuna and Mao maybe too much. However, in defense of myself, this is the direction that the thread's title: Stojko opposes the ladies result, would suggest. I don't understand why it would be more appropriate to talk about Cynthia Phaneuf's case against Mao, for example.

Also, I think it is rather extreme to label me as a bot as I have not made any personal attacks on Yuna's looks, personality, conduct outside the skating rink, so forth. Indeed, I think those who label me as a 'bot' simply don't want to read anything critical about Yuna's skating skills, even when it is acknowledged that the general point being made is valid.

Fair enough. I just thought it was a bit much to say that the COP was designed so Yuna could could win. I think Yuna has been able to mask the weaknesses she has (lack of a 3L, average spirals/spins) and work with the system, but it's another thing to say that the powers that be designed the system so she would win no matter what. Yuna has lost under this system (2007 & 2008 Worlds; 2008 GPF and 2006 Skate Canada).

BTW I never caled you a bot, nor will I do so. I agree that the word bot is thrown at anyone that gives critcism of a favorite skater. And I'm not into labeling anyway.
 

dlgpffps

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 14, 2009
Also, I think it is rather extreme to label me as a bot as I have not made any personal attacks on Yuna's looks, personality, conduct outside the skating rink, so forth. Indeed, I think those who label me as a 'bot' simply don't want to read anything critical about Yuna's skating skills, even when it is acknowledged that the general point being made is valid.

I'm sorry if my language was harsh, but no one labelled you a bot because you said "anything critical about Yu-na's skating skills." Constructive criticism is welcome anywhere, yet while you had some points relevant to CoP, you did not hesitate to bring in one skater, accuse her of orchestrating the whole system for her convenience and basically calling her a coward for not trying the 3L because it hurts her. What yelled out bot was your double standard. You criticized Yu-na for not having the full set of triples, while saying Mao's off the hook because she has a 3A, although she doesn't have a 3S or a 3Lz. Although you said Mao should try to get back that 3Lz, you also said she didn't really need the 3S. If you were to criticize both skaters for not having all triples, I would agreed with you, as I think all skaters should have them or struggle doing so. I cried out bot because I've read your posts elsewhere. You were ranting about how the system conspires against Mao, poor Mao, who is heaveny in the Elysium for 3A-jumping skaters, and brought in Yu-na as the evil villain, for whom this system runs. Well, that was the connotation.

However, as I read more of your posts, I realized that your might've just used the wrong words to describe the situation. I'm guessing you didn't really mean Yu-na was there at the inception of the system or striking a deal with Speedy (which is what some Mao bots do say). You just meant that the GOE-system benefits Yu-na a lot more than it does Mao. If that's the case, I'm sorry I prematurely called bot alert. Don't worry, Yu-na fans here are willing to hear criticism of Yu-na's skating skills. If a Yu-na bot were to claim Yu-na's perfect, I would have an argument just like this because I know that's not true. And also know that many Yu-na fans here are also rooting for Mao (like me).
 
Last edited:

Phoenix347

Final Flight
Joined
Oct 24, 2009
I think Joe was referring to Wagner the composer. ;)
Personally I perfer Verdi to Wagner, he is just too heavy for me...

Oops, I feel silly now... I even did a search on figure skater named Verdi. Yes, I love Verdi's Requiem. Wagner is a bit bombastic for my taste. I need to read more carefully. :D
 
Top