Isn't taping the judges prohibited? | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Isn't taping the judges prohibited?

urigio

Spectator
Joined
Jan 29, 2010
Hi. This is my first post. Have been content to read all discussions until now but decided to jump into this discussion.

I feel like this judge is unfairly accused of cheating. Aren't the GOEs that were scored by this judge who was taped on par with most of the other judges?
 

hurrah

Medalist
Joined
Aug 8, 2009
Can you imagine what the television station could have come up with if Mao had skated without those two jump hiccups and Yuna has fallen twice? Because given the kind of GOEs she was getting in the two seasons leading up to the Olympics, it's likely that Yuna still would have won gold.

ISU really should be grateful to Yuna for holding them up.
 

usethis

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 21, 2010
The logic behind the secrecy is a two-sided coin. Yes, the public accountability of individual judges evaporated but that applies to those who try to manipulate the system as well. Say, if you bribed a judge but you can't tell whether s/he delivered then it's likely you just wasted money - unless you bought the whole panel. I think it is better to keep the anonymity to a certain degree for that reason. The public can still tell who the judges are anyway. (They are sitting there with the audience)
 

chloepoco

Medalist
Joined
Nov 1, 2009
I think what's most ironic about this whole judging business (and slightly ot since it's not about the taping itself) is that a couple of months ago, so many people were insinuating that there would be a Japanese judge or tech caller who was going to unfairly judge any non-Japanese skater (this was after the 4CC when Yuna got a downgrade on her jump). And of course, the Japanese sponsors, who would also influence the outcome. Phil Hersh dedicated an entire article to the conspiracy theory. Instead, what you had was a Korean judge on the judging panel, and a lot of big Korean sponsors for the Olympics.

I know Yuna won fair and square, with no biased judging or "judges being bribed", however, I just find it interesting that so many people were buying into the conspiracy theories against the Japanese. I know there were a few threads about it several months back.
 

Ren

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
I know Yuna won fair and square, with no biased judging or "judges being bribed", however, I just find it interesting that so many people were buying into the conspiracy theories against the Japanese. I know there were a few threads about it several months back.

What is skating without conspiracy?:banging:
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Say, if you bribed a judge but you can't tell whether s/he delivered then it's likely you just wasted money - unless you bought the whole panel. I think it is better to keep the anonymity to a certain degree for that reason.

The anonymity idea was put into the Interim System for the 2002-2003 season to try to appease the International Olympic Committee after the Salt Lake City pairs judging scandal. It was then retained in the CoP. The point was not to prevent bribery but to prevent national federation leaders from pressuring judges from their own country to go along with whatever deal the federation chiefs cooked up (e.g., Didier Gailhaguet pressuring French judge Marie Reine Le Gougne.)

I do not think this secrecy idea works at all. In the first place, the judges and federation chiefs are on the same team, they are not adversaries. Secondly, it is quite easy for ISU insiders to find out which judge voted which way -- it is just the public that is in the dark.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Hi. This is my first post. Have been content to read all discussions until now but decided to jump into this discussion.

I feel like this judge is unfairly accused of cheating. Aren't the GOEs that were scored by this judge who was taped on par with most of the other judges?

Welcome. urigio. Post often, post long!

Is the judge in the video really being accused of cheating? Or are the commentators just trying to educate viewers on the importance of GOEs in the ISU judging system? (I do not speak Japanese, so I am just going by reports on this thread.)
 

Nadia01

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 10, 2009
Welcome. urigio. Post often, post long!

Is the judge in the video really being accused of cheating? Or are the commentators just trying to educate viewers on the importance of GOEs in the ISU judging system? (I do not speak Japanese, so I am just going by reports on this thread.)

Based on my understanding of the video & the comments, etc. that were said, it sounds like they're saying GOE can make a big difference in the final outcome, but that Mao was robbed because her 3As should get more GOE than they did just because she landed them.

So they're not saying outright that the judges CHEATED because JP tends to be a lil more subtle about things like that, but they're making it VERY CLEAR that Mao was unfairly judged and scored.
 

hurrah

Medalist
Joined
Aug 8, 2009
I agree with Nadia's interpretation. I think they just wanted to get the message across that they think that GoEs have too much weight on deciding who wins, and that Mao was not given the kind of GoEs that e.g., Plushenko thought she should have for her triple-axel.

The scores of the judge who they chose to focus on was fairly neutral in relative terms to other judges' scores. The screen showed the judge giving +2 GoEs on three of Yuna's jumps, and +1 and -1 GoEs on Mao's triple-axels in her LP.

If anything, the clip provides conclusive evidence that this judge had scored fairly moderately. If they wanted to insinuate that this judge had cheated or had given extremely high/low scores, they would have done better by blanketing out the scores he/she had given.
 

ryoko

Rinkside
Joined
Jan 16, 2010
Why can't the judges in figure skating be open and identified? AFAIK, it's the only sport that has anonymous judging panels. Every other judged sport shows what each judge's nationality is, and shows each mark each judge gave. Why can't figure skating? By having anonymous judging, figure skating loses even more credibility as a sport.

Moreover, how is what this T.V. station did in the wrong? They filmed the judge's marks. This is illegal how? If the judges are being fair, they should have nothing to worry about anyways.

Isn't it wrong though? I don't know if it's illegal, but am pretty sure you can get in serious trouble for this. And P-lease. Like your favorite skater NEVER gained benefits under COP.
Why are you saying that judges are trying to hide something now? It has been what it is for several years now- you see only what you want to see.
 

gourry

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
It's a bit scary how often I agree with you, Mrs. P!

I was scratching my head when I read this thread, wondering what the point of this exercise was anyway, considering the breakdown of the scores comes out almost immediately and many FS fans in a country where the sport is popular know how the GOE system works. If it was intended to educate the wider audience, they could have just... explained in words? Although it would be terribly unfair, some people from outside Japan might associate this negatively with the Japanese skaters.

I doubt they know how the GOE system works though. I've seen way too many fans crying Mao wuzrobbed because she does 3A and Yuna only does EASY jumps. (For heaven's sake, since when lutz and 3-3 are easy by the way? Just tell Mao that and I bet she'll be mad!)
So many people especially in Japan ignores both difficulty and quality matters. I blame their Media for this because they've only emphasized the 'difficulty' part for so many years. This is backfiring now and no wonder their public is left puzzled.

But if they wanted to explain how the GOE works, this is not so effective way IMO. Using protocol sheets would be more appropriate. Here they make it as if one biased judge caused some debatable action while in fact almost all of the judges made same judgements across the boards.

Seriously, could they do that? I myself am not a fan of anonimous judging, but peeping them from afar?:eek:hwell:
 
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sunny0760

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
I got so angry when I saw the clip yesterday. What's the TV program aiming for? Don't Japanese people get indignant seeing that idiotic show?

I don't take issues about the content even if it's a little laughable... they did not directly say that the scores were absolutely wrong. They just let Plush say Mao should have gotten more points and by that, they suggested that the judging was somewhat subjective and could be mislead.

Yes, I think who judged what should be publicly notified. Being fair only matters. But before the authorities modify the rule, just don't film what judges are doing, needless to say, airing it in public. Shame on you, the producer of the show!
And the Japanese media should show some respect to their athletes. If you want to know why the things go, say, +GOD for Yuna and 0 or -GOD for Asada, you really don't have to ask the judge and have him definitely declair, "Yuna's jumps were better." How would Mao and Japanese people feel to see that?
What about the caption at the first part of the clip? 'Pissed off vs the highest score in history' below the pics of two skaters? I feel for Mao even if I am never her fan.

Japanese people, your athletes can win or lose. Protest against the TV station. You cannot be fooled.
Japanese media staffs, give your athletes some break especially when they are crying right after their defeat.
 
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Mafke

Medalist
Joined
Mar 22, 2004
Based on my understanding of the video & the comments, etc. that were said, it sounds like they're saying GOE can make a big difference in the final outcome, but that Mao was robbed because her 3As should get more GOE than they did just because she landed them.
So they're not saying outright that the judges CHEATED because JP tends to be a lil more subtle about things like that, but they're making it VERY CLEAR that Mao was unfairly judged and scored.

Looks like another case of "Damned dirty judges aren't giving more points than they're allowed to!"

The simple way to explain it:

1. For whatever reason (good or bad) a 3ax-2t combination gets fewer points than a 3l-3t combination. Whatever you think of that, those are the rules the judges have to follow and all skaters know that ahead of time. It would be a terrible injustice if the judges began overriding the rules just because they don't like them. Change them for future competitions but leave them alone during a given competition.

2. Asada's 3ax is a very impressive accomplishment for a lady (since so few ladies have had the jump ratified in competition). On the other hand ... as a 3ax it's kind of average. Leaving some technical issues aside she doesn't go into it or land it with great speed and it's not very high. Credit to her for doing it so often, but ..... while it's a 3ax it's not a great 3ax (like Ito or Harding had).

3. Kim's 3l-3t combination is hella impressive by any standard (including head to head with the men). She goes into it and lands it with a lot of speed and it's nice and high and super clean. It's a great combination, just about the best any skater consistently lands now.

I would say that the individual point values for an individual 3ax and/or quad aren't out of line regarding other jumps, but the point values for combinations and sequences are all screwed up in CoP and always have been and need a drastic overhaul (and yes, the tech specs should give the benefit of a doubt in cases that are anywhere close with quds and ladies' 3axes).

The thing is, even if the 3ax-2t combo had been raised in point values I still think Kim's 3lz-3t deserves more points than Asada's 3ax-2t. The degree of quality in those two combinations is just that large.
 
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Morning Glory

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 16, 2008
Based on my understanding of the video & the comments, etc. that were said, it sounds like they're saying GOE can make a big difference in the final outcome, but that Mao was robbed because her 3As should get more GOE than they did just because she landed them.

So they're not saying outright that the judges CHEATED because JP tends to be a lil more subtle about things like that, but they're making it VERY CLEAR that Mao was unfairly judged and scored.

I've just watched this video, as I don't read Hangul I don't know how the subtitles says, but I don't think this video says that Mao was unfairly judged VERY CLEARLY. And also they didn't say Mao sould get more GOE just because she landed them. Really funny, you have such strong impression. I'm not sure you are fluent in Japanese, but in another thread you got Mao's interview as a negative one although some Japanese posters here got it as NOT negative.Is there any misunderstanding which I may resolve?
 

Morning Glory

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 16, 2008
I got so angry when I saw the clip yesterday. What's the TV program aiming for? Don't Japanese people get indignant seeing that idiotic show?

I don't take issure about the content even if it's a little laughable... they did not directly say that the scores were absolutely wrong. They just let Plush say Mao should have gotten more points and by that, they suggested that the judging was somewhat subjective and could be mislead.

Yes, I think who judged what should be publicly notified. Being fair only matters. But before the authorities modify the rule, just don't film what judges are doing, needless to say, airing it in public. Shame on you, the producer of the show!
And the Japanese media should show some respect to their athletes. If you want to know why the things go, say, +GOD for Yuna and 0 or -GOD for Asada, you really don't have to ask the judge and have him definitely declair, "Yuna's jumps were better." How would Mao and Japanese people feel to see that?
What about the caption at the first part of the clip? 'Pissed off vs the highest score in history' below the pics of two skaters? I feel for Mao even if I am never her fan.

Japanese people, your athletes can win or lose. Protest against the TV station. You cannot be fooled.
Japanese media staffs, give your athletes some break especially when they are crying right after their defeat.

I think you had better calm down:). Maybe you don't know how Japanese media praise Yuna saying she skated beautifully and perfectly under such a pressure.I watched some TV programs featuring Yuna's progress and celebrating her victory.Of course, in a friendly way.

And as I said above, I don't have an impression that this video has a strong message.
 

Nadia01

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 10, 2009
I've just watched this video, as I don't read Hangul I don't know how the subtitles says, but I don't think this video says that Mao was unfairly judged VERY CLEARLY. And also they didn't say Mao sould get more GOE just because she landed them. Really funny, you have such strong impression. I'm not sure you are fluent in Japanese, but in another thread you got Mao's interview as a negative one although some Japanese posters here got it as NOT negative.Is there any misunderstanding which I may resolve?

I think maybe you missed another post I've made in which I clarified that it was another interview? I've seen like tons of Mao interviews post-LP.

Given how subtle Japanese can be (for example: "we'll consider this with a forward looking posture" really meaning "no"), I think the program strongly suggests that Mao wasn't scored properly, esp. with them having Plushy on the show, who said Mao should get more points just for landing 3As. If the only thing the show wanted to do was explain what GOE means and how it can affect the final outcome and why Yuna gets more GOE compared to Mao, they wouldn't have interviewed Plushy and aired him saying how Mao didn't get enough GOE for her 3As.

BTW -- I've seen some nice JP TV programs talking about Yuna's progress, but I still think that many Japanese people aren't happy with the scoring, believing that Mao wasn't scored correctly. And the program like this only encourages such sentiment.

P.S. I don't think programs like this really helps anybody since Mao made mistakes and Yuna didn't, and even the mighty 3As cannot cancel out 2 extra triples Yuna had in her program (Mao's 4 triples v. Yuna's 6 triples). This isn't like SLC where we saw two great pairs skating. Even under 6.0, Yuna would've won, as she would've finished top 3 in SP and finished 1st in LP. If Mao had skated SOTL and squeaky clean and still lost to clean Yuna, I'd say there's a valid reason for unhappiness and debate on the JP side. As it stands, programs like this come across as whining. They should be happy that Mao's 4 triples beat Joannie's 7 triples for OSM.
 
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