Interview With an Olympic Judge

Tony Wheeler · Mar 9, 2010

Blades of Passion said:
Hopefully you understand that many people feel the downgrading system is unfair and needs to be fixed. A fall on a Quad attempt being scored the same as a fall on a Double Axel is quite ridiculous and his other jump shouldn't have been downgraded in the first place.

I follow everything very closely, I know what the fans want changed and I agree with a lot of it. If the quad is rotated, they are going to get a decent amount of points still, which I think is fair. The problem is that when it comes to the quad, usually it's just BARELY cheated rather than being way underrotated, like you might see in the junior ladies event with some of the triples, etc. I don't know what I would personally do to change the system without really thinking about it. I also haven't gone back and watched to see if I thought the triple toe was cheated enough to be downgraded or not, but I still don't really understand the Lutz GOE's.

Willywu · Mar 9, 2010

Tony Wheeler said:
I follow everything very closely, I know what the fans want changed and I agree with a lot of it. If the quad is rotated, they are going to get a decent amount of points still, which I think is fair. The problem is that when it comes to the quad, usually it's just BARELY cheated rather than being way underrotated, like you might see in the junior ladies event with some of the triples, etc. I don't know what I would personally do to change the system without really thinking about it. I also haven't gone back and watched to see if I thought the triple toe was cheated enough to be downgraded or not, but I still don't really understand the Lutz GOE's.

Apparently they were called for flutzs. =/ Kinda wierd when I have not really seen wrong edge takeoffs called against Takahashi before.

antmanb · Mar 10, 2010

Blades of Passion said:
I think he deserved the title even with the failed Quad (as does this judge, since he answered "Takahashi" even when the interviewer asked him who should have won between Lysacek and Plushenko).

I definitely don't think Takahashi should have won with a fall on the quad and an an under-rotated triple flip (though i never saw a slow motion of it so i'm not sure about the 3F personally).

I read the the judge answering Takahashi (and laughing) as him trying to avoid picking between Plush and Lysacek rather than him thinking Dai should have won regardless. Maybe Tony Wheeler can explain this further as he was the one conducting the interview?

Edit - I see there has already been a discussion with Tony about it.

Ant

Joesitz (RIP) · Mar 10, 2010

Without speaking of personalities, the five Program Component scores contain bullets in each of the categories. From what I understand each judge can pick and choose from them, and ignore one or two, as he sees fit. I believe it gives the judge a selection for scoring. The judges are in no way accountable for the bullets.

For linking footwork and movement, e.g., the transitions could (rather than should?) contain Variety, Difficulty and Intricacy. It seems to me, what the judge decides to use is the basis for his score.

Since all the judges choose bullets differently, but come up with a similar score, the rules of the corridor are met.

Getting back to Takahashi. I believe the sum of the opinions either favored him or not. It's the roll of the dice His Tech scores, however, depend on the eyes of the Panel and those eyes are infallible.

janetfan · Mar 10, 2010

It's OK with me that Evan won. Some have said Plushy would have won under 6.0 but since they were skating under CoP I don't find much meaning in that statement.

They all knew the rules and had the same opportunities to prepare their best CoP program.

Here is something that I do wonder about. Did the margin of victory seem accurate? Were Evan and Plushy really so much better than Dai? Was it by about 10 points? That is a large margin and don't think it represents what we saw on the ice.

If a complaint about 6.0 was that it was a mishmash of comparitive opinions then we should see a major difference under CoP.
If Dai lost alot on the failed quad attempt why wasn't he able to make up some of the points with other qualities of his skating that seemed clearly superior to both Evan and Plushy?

Maybe it could be said Evan played the CoP game extremely well. But nobody has suggested that Plushy played the system well. Yet he still finnished far ahead of Dai in point totals.

I am not trying to make a case for Dai winning the Silver - just that Evan and Plushy should not have finished so far ahead of him.
Dai made technical mistakes but he also seemed the best in many areas. I do not think the CoP was right on these scores and see it more like a "mishmash" of opinions from judges that have a hard time understanding and accurately scoring artistry/pcs.

ImaginaryPogue · Mar 10, 2010

Ehh, the two downgrades really killed Takahashi, along with a level two spin. And you can definitely argue that throwing in a quad that is very shaky isn't smart COP playing. I do think Plushenko was overscored a little on PCS (8.75 for interpretation?), but the two downgrades and that spin cost Takahashi 8+ points (5.8 for the quad, 1.0 for the spin, and I don't know how much for the other downgrade, but ~2 seems accurate). And that's not including the four points he lost for the fall.

let`s talk · Mar 10, 2010

let`s talk said:
Because too many people think that the result of men`s event was unfair.

figureskatingfan22 said:
I think it's rather the old debate: sport/jumps/risk vs. art/overall skating/no risk . Under that aspect several results would probably have been possible (independently of the judging system).

That was exactly my point. Thanks.

let`s talk · Mar 10, 2010

Anyway, the thread is still about the same: men`s results in Vancouver.

janetfan · Mar 10, 2010

let`s talk said:
Anyway, the thread is still about the same: men`s results in Vancouver.

Here is an interesting point that was raised in the interview:

"PI: I think it was stupid to do but Plushenko is blond isn’t he? Just joking! I can see what he was trying to explain, but too bad that in doing so, he took Brian Joubert down as well. You don’t do that! I am not Joubert’s biggest fan, but I think it’s the lowest thing an athlete can do is to try to put your fellow competitors in a negative light, so to speak."

Maybe jumping onto the top of the podium after winning Silver was just as disrespectful but it seems Plushy has many tricks up his sleeve and is never hesitant to play them if he thinks it will be to his benefit.

Is this an example of "being programed to win," or just more attempts at manipulation? Maybe they are the same thing

seniorita · Mar 10, 2010

Speaking of manipulation, was there any of the 30 skaters in Olys being dragged in media for their weaknesses in various aspects of their skating apart from Plush? He has many weakness sure, did media bothered with any other skater? Can you name one? Before the competition after the sp and before and while the LP? I havent seen a single reportage of the weakness of Lambiel, Joubert, Oda, Dai, you name it or anyone who threatened the precious Gold.

Morning shows and I saw extended reports of his practices, did he wear black or not, did he jump 4 quads in practice or not, did he spoke to Mishin, did he glance anyone while skating, did he blow his nose? Oh he did blew it two times, what does this mean?? From Quadchenko villain to he should be marked around 4 in pcs in broadcast from commentators just before the sp had even started , to quad vs artistry , comments from Caroll that he has not much anything else contrary to some else who have artistry and quality (artistry who? They were not talking about Lambiel or Abott). Accompanied with laughs and irony and in the Gala they remembered ah what an amazing athlete he is. I read silently all these days and I dont think Plush should have won or something, neither I applause his reactions but I hate one way bashing, you miss the big picture and I dont know many skaters who could have handled this pressure for long, sometimes people react at the end.

Dont bother answering jntfan, I just put you on ignore cause you manage to make every thread hostile and unpleasant for me. And this was a great interview and attempt to listen to what a judge has to say that has been ruined by stupid comments.

janetfan · Mar 10, 2010

seniorita said:
. And this was a great interview and attempt to listen to what a judge has to say that has been ruined by stupid comments.

The "stupid comments" were about a direct quote from the "great interview."

I liked the interview alot and thought it was interesting that this judge saw Plushy's comments about transitions as being hurtful to Joubert.

lavender · Mar 10, 2010

It's funny how most feel that Evan won fair and square but aren't totally satisfied. I can't blame them.
I would have given it to Takahashi if he only just fell on the quad even though Evan was completely clean.

Layfan · Mar 10, 2010

janetfan said:
The "stupid comments" were about a direct quote from the "great interview."

I liked the interview alot and thought it was interesting that this judge saw Plushy's comments about transitions as being hurtful to Joubert.

Well, the judge implied that Plush was taking Joubert down on purpose. I question that because it doesn't make any sense. If Plushenko was trying to sabotage Joubert with his comments on transitions than he was also trying to sabotage himself. And that just doesn't make sense. I think Plushenko just spoke without thinking or imagining that it would create such an uproar.
Maybe I'm being naive but I thought the Inman-transition-e-mail thing was one of the silliest non-scandals since I starting paying attention to skating...
As we saw, Evan didn't even beat Plushenko on transitions so it didn't make a bit of difference. And Joubert had such a miserable skate it's impossible to even discuss whether the e-mail or Plushenko's comments affected the judging of him.

janetfan · Mar 10, 2010

Layfan said:
Well, the judge implied that Plush was taking Joubert down on purpose. I question that because it doesn't make any sense. If Plushenko was trying to sabotage Joubert with his comments on transitions than he was also trying to sabotage himself. And that just doesn't make sense. I think Plushenko just spoke without thinking or imagining that it would create such an uproar.
Maybe I'm being naive but I thought the Inman-transition-e-mail thing was one of the silliest non-scandals since I starting paying attention to skating...
As we saw, Evan didn't even beat Plushenko on transitions so it didn't make a bit of difference. And Joubert had such a miserable skate it's impossible to even discuss whether the e-mail or Plushenko's comments affected the judging of him.

I think Evan probably did have a higher TR mark than Plush but their overall pcs were a tie.

Here is another quote from the interview - this time about Evan:

"His weakness? Let me think. Probably his cheating on the triple Axel take-off. Sometimes his skid [or pre-rotation] on take-off is rotated for more than half of a turn making it a triple Salchow, so to speak. But that is the only minor issue I can find with him, and it doesn’t happen all the time."

Seems I heard the exact same comments from Plushy a while ago.

Whether I agree or like this quote is not really important and it did not ruin the interview for me. And Evan has been bashed over his 3A and other aspects of his skating as much or more than any other skater at GS.

It is hard for me to say if the judge felt Plushy's remarks about TR were innocent/dumb or calculated. We should remember Plush made these remarks after Joubert outscored him on TR at the Euros. Plushy objected to Joubert getting a higher TR marks and decided to speak out about it. Maybe he thought his words would be kept secret - but that is not usually what happens to things people say at an interview.

There have been endless discussions about some of Patrick's comments and since GS is not a shrine or a site devoted to Plushenko it seems we should be able to discuss his comments/motives and actions the same as we do for all of the other skaters.

Layfan · Mar 10, 2010

janetfan said:
I think Evan probably did have a higher TR mark than Plush but their overall pcs were a tie.

Here is another quote from the interview - this time about Evan:

"His weakness? Let me think. Probably his cheating on the triple Axel take-off. Sometimes his skid [or pre-rotation] on take-off is rotated for more than half of a turn making it a triple Salchow, so to speak. But that is the only minor issue I can find with him, and it doesn’t happen all the time."

Seems I heard the exact same comments from Plushy a while ago.
Whether I agree or like this quote is not really important and it did not ruin the interview for me. And Evan has been bashed over his 3A and other aspects of his skating as much or more than any other skater at GS.

It is hard for me to say if the judge felt Plushy's remarks about TR were innocent/dumb or calculated. We should remember Plush made these remarks after Joubert outscored him on TR at the Euros. Plushy objected to Joubert getting a higher TR marks and decided to speak out about it. Maybe he thought his words would be kept secret - but that is not usually what happens to things people say at an interview.

There have been endless discussions about some of Patrick's comments and since GS is not a shrine or a site devoted to Plushenko it seems we should be able to discuss his comments/motives and actions the same as we do for all of the other skaters.

Ohl, I agree. I just happen to think in this case that Plushenko wasn't trying to sabotage Joubert on purpose...

I guess Evan did score higher than Plushenko on transitions but not by much. Anyone paying attention to that "scandal" would have thought Plushenko had no transitions at all and that Evan has the most intricate transition of all the skaters. Turns out neither is quite true...

Mathman · Mar 10, 2010

Actually, the men's LP turned out to be a pretty good showcase for the much maligned ISU judging system.

Who "should have won" based strictly on the quality of his skating as reflected by the program component scores? Here is how the CoP ranked them.

1. Takahashi 84.50
2. Lambiel 83.60
3. Lysacek/Plushenko (tied) 82.80
4. Plushenko/Lysacek 82.80
5. Chan 81.12
6. Kozuka 81.10
7. Abbott 79.00
8. Weir 77.10
9. Oda 77.00

Any complaints? Maybe Kozuka should have been two one-hundredths of a point ahead of Chan, instead of the other way around?

Hsuhs · Mar 10, 2010

Layfan said:
I just happen to think in this case that Plushenko wasn't trying to sabotage Joubert on purpose...

I do. I think Zhenya is exactly that kind of guy.

He did that prob b/c he thought Joubert would be a factor in Olys podium placing.

Mafke · Mar 10, 2010

Layfan said:
I just happen to think in this case that Plushenko wasn't trying to sabotage Joubert on purpose...

I think maybe (just maybe) he thought that his comments would harm Joubert's scores and not his. There was no reason for him not to be pretty sure of the judges' love and it's possible (not certain, maybe not likely, but possible) that he thought he could say that and the judges would be harsher on Joubert and not harsher on him (or that his more secrure jumps would make up for anything he lost on PCs).

jennylovskt · Mar 10, 2010

Mathman said:
Actually, the men's LP turned out to be a pretty good showcase for the much maligned ISU judging system.

Who "should have won" based strictly on the quality of his skating as reflected by the program component scores? Here is how the CoP ranked them.

1. Takahashi 84.50
2. Lambiel 83.60
3. Lysacek/Plushenko (tied) 82.80
4. Plushenko/Lysacek 82.80
5. Chan 81.12
6. Kozuka 81.10
7. Abbott 79.00
8. Weir 77.10
9. Oda 77.00

Any complaints? Maybe Kozuka should have been two one-hundredths of a point ahead of Chan, instead of the other way around?

Yes, I do.(not surprising :biggrin:

)

An art is measured by numbers to the decimals. How? That doesn't mean at all that it will be fair. To what degree that an art is worth, say 81.10 instead of 81.12? Same with the top three. How is that fair (or not fair, for that matter) that Lambiel is only 0.80 above Lysacek, or Lysacek is only 1.70 less than Takahashi? A point above one skater doesn't mean that it's correct or fair. The bottom line - Lysacek has been held up in PCS because of the stupid corridor which has made him a champion.:boohoo: Sorry, CoP needs to be changed. For now, this is math, not a sport.

Mathman · Mar 10, 2010

jennylovskt said:
The art is measured by numbers to the decimals. How? That doesn't mean at all that it will be fair. To what degree that an art is worth, say 81.10 instead of 81.12?

The only fair way to measure the worth of a work of art is by how much it sells for. This statue was sold at auction last month for US$ 104,327,006.

(Personally, I think it's as ugly as Lysacek's triple Axel. :biggrin:

)

http://www.christchurchartgallery.org.nz/Exhibitions/2006/Giacometti/GiacomettiWalkingMan1960.jpg

Interview With an Olympic Judge

Tony Wheeler

Willywu

antmanb

Joesitz (RIP)

janetfan

Match Penalty

ImaginaryPogue

let`s talk

Match Penalty

let`s talk

Match Penalty

janetfan

Match Penalty

seniorita

janetfan

Match Penalty

lavender

Layfan

janetfan

Match Penalty

Layfan

Mathman

Hsuhs

Mafke

jennylovskt

Mathman

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