Interview With an Olympic Judge

seniorita · Mar 10, 2010

Ouch..this was sold for one hundrend thousand dollars??wow..people have money to spend.
I could buy a house with this money

I hope it was for a charity.
I dont believe I m defending lysacek, but his axel is not that bad. Maybe he doesnt have the best technique or it is not that beautiful but as all the others things repeated for various skaters I think I ve been brainwashed not to like it and then I noticed it myself.
For the statue you notice it immediately. (appologies to the creator) :eek:

Blades of Passion · Mar 10, 2010

Mathman said:
Actually, the men's LP turned out to be a pretty good showcase for the much maligned ISU judging system.

Who "should have won" based strictly on the quality of his skating as reflected by the program component scores? Here is how the CoP ranked them.

1. Takahashi 84.50
2. Lambiel 83.60
3. Lysacek/Plushenko (tied) 82.80
4. Plushenko/Lysacek 82.80
5. Chan 81.12
6. Kozuka 81.10
7. Abbott 79.00
8. Weir 77.10
9. Oda 77.00

Any complaints?

Kozuka didn't receive that score. The judges gave him 74.2. Ugh. He should have been right up there with Takahashi.

Lambiel was massively overscored. Lysacek and Plushenko were both overscored. Weir was underscored.

Mathman · Mar 10, 2010

seniorita said:
Ouch..this was sold for one hundrend thousand dollars??wow..people have money to spend.

I could buy a house with this money

No, it was for one-hundred million dollars. Yu could buy the Parthenon.

seniorita · Mar 10, 2010

Mathman said:
Yu could buy the Parthenon.

Oh what to do with a house that has no windows nor doors, just a nice view?

100 millions? *drops dead*! I was making those kind of stuff in kindergarten out of plasticine but non billionaire ever appreciated them

I m upset now.

Mathman · Mar 10, 2010

Blades of Passion said:
Kozuka didn't receive that score. The judges gave him 74.2. Ugh. He should have been right up there with Takahashi.

74.2?! The CoP blows.

Weir was underscored.

I wonder if Weir and Kozuka suffered from being their country's number three?

janetfan · Mar 10, 2010

Mathman said:
74.2?! The CoP blows.

I wonder if Weir and Kozuka suffered from being their country's number three?

Is that always true?
Didn't Evan win the 2009 WC as the USA Bronze medalist and his country's #3 skater?

Maybe he had been around for a while - Kozuka is younger and did seem to be a victim of reputation marks.

Johnny certainly is not new but perhaps he has a different reputation..:think:

Blades of Passion · Mar 10, 2010

Nah, Evan was still considered the #1 American going into Worlds. He defeated Abbott and Mroz by a wide margin at 4 Continents before Worlds and had the most prestige behind him.

Joesitz (RIP) · Mar 10, 2010

for those who think Plush and Evan were overscored, you would be one critic against the consensus of 9 official judges but nothing wrong with opinions.

Layfan · Mar 10, 2010

janetfan said:
Is that always true?
Didn't Evan win the 2009 WC as the USA Bronze medalist and his country's #3 skater?

Maybe he had been around for a while - Kozuka is younger and did seem to be a victim of reputation marks.

Johnny certainly is not new but perhaps he has a different reputation..:think:

True, and let's not forget Sarah Hughes. But Evan at the WC had help from other skaters who messed up and so did Sarah at Salt Lake ... I guess it doesn't really answer the question of whether Weir and Kozuka were hurt by being number threes...

How important is the base value of a program? I always thought it was very important and basically was what won Evan the title, giving that his LP base value is barely below Plushenko even though Plush as a 4-3. But scrutinizing the numbers I was actually kind of surprised by some things. From the way everyone talks, I thought Johnny Weir's LP base value would be very low compared to everyone else's. It isn't. Only 1 point below Evan's. 3 points above Dai's.

And Brian Joubert's LP value is only 65.94 with a quad? Wouldn't that make it difficult for him to medal even if he didn't fall all over the place? Why would he have a program like that? And if he really can't up his difficulty above that base number why was he ever considered a favorite? Am I missing something? Am I looking at wrong numbers or just not getting it?

Joesitz (RIP) · Mar 10, 2010

lavender said:
It's funny how most feel that Evan won fair and square but aren't totally satisfied. I can't blame them.
I would have given it to Takahashi if he only just fell on the quad even though Evan was completely clean.

That would be ok in the 6.0 System, but we are now in CoP and the nitty gritty produces winners. It's no longer just about appearing pretty, one has to prove it in the PCs which in theory spells out the Whole Package

Tony Wheeler · Mar 10, 2010

Joubert only received .8 of the credit on the base value of the triple Axel because he stepped out of it and added a double Salchow. I think since it was such an obvious step-out, the technical panel didn't give credit to the Salchow at all. I'm not sure why it wouldn't count, though, seems like it should have even if it was just another point or so. He also only had one combination, a triple double, and only the one triple Axel. He only repeated the triple Lutz, but had the option to throw in another Triple Axel instead of say, the triple toe he did in the beginning or the late triple Salchow. All the points add up, even if it's just on the base value, and you have to maximize every chance you get, including doing a 3-jump combo.

Blades of Passion · Mar 10, 2010

Layfan said:
And Brian Joubert's LP value is only 65.94 with a quad?

He left a lot of content out in his program. He always has, though. Not once has he done a performance that had all of the combination jumps in it that CoP calls for.

Layfan · Mar 10, 2010

Blades of Passion said:
He left a lot of content out in his program. He always has, though. Not once has he done a performance that had all of the combination jumps in it that CoP calls for.

Oh. So he had planned a more difficult program in theory but failed to attempt some of this elements...? Well, of course that makes sense I don't know why I didn't think of it. Never mind.

jennylovskt · Mar 10, 2010

Joesitz said:
for those who think Plush and Evan were overscored, you would be one critic against the consensus of 9 official judges but nothing wrong with opinions.

Oh, those only 10% honesty people? They certainly know more than the skating fans but they are bound by corridors, and 90% of them are not totally honest. Remember? That's not consensus.

Mathman said:
The only fair way to measure the worth of a work of art is by how much it sells for. This statue was sold at auction last month for US$ 104,327,006.

(Personally, I think it's as ugly as Lysacek's triple Axel. )

http://www.christchurchartgallery.org.nz/Exhibitions/2006/Giacometti/GiacomettiWalkingMan1960.jpg

This piece of art must have historical value in it. Does it? The length of time has value and can be measured by market price. What is Mr. Lysacek's program's market value? Some people completely buy it, some completely hate it. It's marketable value is very much limited. It doesn't seem to have much market value compares to Takahashi's. And none of the programs has historical value. Still, I don't get it. How did CH, TR, IN, SS, and PE transfer to numbers with decimals? It seems that there is too much room and possibilities to cheat.

If a system produces a result that would become an obstacle to a sport, this system needs to be changed because figure skating is categorized as a sport.

ImaginaryPogue · Mar 10, 2010

Wouldn't you then follow that by saying that art itself is an obstacle to sport then?

jennylovskt · Mar 10, 2010

ImaginaryPogue said:
Wouldn't you then follow that by saying that art itself is an obstacle to sport then?

Not necessarily. It depends.

Layfan · Mar 10, 2010

jennylovskt said:
Oh, those only 10% honesty people? They certainly know more than the skating fans but they are bound by corridors, and 90% of them are not totally honest. Remember? That's not consensus.

This piece of art must have historical value in it. Does it? The length of time has value and can be measured by market price. What is Mr. Lysacek's program's market value? Some people completely buy it, some completely hate it. It's marketable value is very much limited. It doesn't seem to have much market value compares to Takahashi's. And none of the programs has historical value. Still, I don't get it. How did CH, TR, IN, SS, and PE transfer to numbers with decimals? It seems that there is too much room and possibilities to cheat.

If a system produces a result that would become an obstacle to a sport, this system needs to be changed because figure skating is categorized as a sport.

I'm not sure I'm understanding this leap of logic you have been making about "corridors." You seem to be saying "aha!" so Evan won because of "corridors" in PCS.

The judge in this story doesn't really say that does he? He doesn't even imply it. He doesn't mention Evan when he is talking about corridors.

This is what he says about whether Evan or Plushenko should have won:

Oh, Lysacek! There’s no doubt about it when it comes down to those two.

And as for PCS, here is what the judge says:

TW: Based on your own definitions and since you were on the judging panel for the mens competition, which man would you consider the strongest on each of the five?
PI: Skating skills: Takahashi, Transitions and choreography: Chan, Performance: Lysacek, Interpretation: Abbott.

Plushenko is not even on the list.

How are you getting, from this particular interview, that Evan, specifically, benefited from "corridors"?

Mathman · Mar 10, 2010

jennylovskt said:
This piece of art must have historical value in it. Does it? The length of time has value and can be measured by market price.

Here is the history of this work. It was commissioned in 1960 by the Chase Manhattan Bank. The artist couldn't quite get it together, but later he made six of these and somehow this one (#2 in the series) was acquired by the Dresden Bank in Germany. When Dresden went under last year, its assets were taken over by the Commerzbank, who decided to get rid of the statue. It was bought by a wealthy Brazilian lady, to shelter her money against losses in the stock market.

And that is the hundred million dollar history of this statue.

Since it was made in 1960, I suppose its intrinsic worth should be about the same as a figure skating performance by David Jenkins, 1960 Olympic gold medalist. :yes:

What is Mr. Lysacek's program's market value?

I have a feeling we are about to find out. :laugh:

Estimates of the commercial value of an Olympic gold medal used to be in the ten to fifteen million dollar range, for a U.S. lady. Men are not worth so much, if course.

Mathman · Mar 10, 2010

layfan said:
TW: Based on your own definitions and since you were on the judging panel for the mens competition, which man would you consider the strongest on each of the five?
PI: Skating skills: Takahashi, Transitions and choreography: Chan, Performance: Lysacek, Interpretation: Abbott.

Click to expand...

Plushenko is not even on the list.

I thought it was interesting that Mr. Ibens (he's Belgian) gave this list of his all-time favorite skaters. All North Americans except Yagudin.

TW: Over the years that you have judged, who are your favorite skaters?
PI: Ooh, this is a tough one! Michelle Kwan, Michael Weiss, Jeffrey Buttle, Alexei Yagudin, Jamie Sale/David Pelletier.

DragonPhoenix · Mar 10, 2010

From the article :

" TW: What percent of judges do you feel are/have been completely honest?

PI: Completely honest? I would say 10%.

TW: Really, that low? Why is that?

PI: Yes, but for different reasons. Judges still afraid of their federations even though they are scoring anonymously now, defending their own skaters (national bias) against skaters ranked close to their own, pushing their favorite skaters, judges afraid of being outside the corridor, trying to push a skater from a country to get invitations to act as a referee in that country, or just simply they don’t know what they are doing! "

In my view, that sums it up pretty well.

Interview With an Olympic Judge

seniorita

Blades of Passion

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Mathman

seniorita

Mathman

janetfan

Match Penalty

Blades of Passion

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Joesitz (RIP)

Layfan

Joesitz (RIP)

Tony Wheeler

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

Layfan

jennylovskt

ImaginaryPogue

jennylovskt

Layfan

Mathman

Mathman

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