Why is China allowed to send three pairs to 2010 Jr. Worlds | Golden Skate

Why is China allowed to send three pairs to 2010 Jr. Worlds

watchvancouver

Match Penalty
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
Something is wrong. China's total points at 2009 Jr. Worlds' pairs competition were 19=8+11 > 13. According to the rule, they were qualified to send TWO pairs to the next Jr. worlds. How the earth are they allowed to have three pairs in this competition?

Can anybody explain? :eek:hwell:
 

SamuraiKike

Medalist
Joined
Jan 26, 2008
I've been wondering about that too since I saw the entries.. If they are allowed then so should be everybody else..
 

Nirti

Medalist
Joined
Nov 24, 2008
I've been wondering too...
A chinese pair has won the JGP Final, but a japanise girl and a japanise boy has won too, and Japan has only one girl and one boy to the JW...
Maybe is there an exception for pairs, which have sometimes lack of participants? But I've never seen a thing like this before in the ISU rules.
 

Kypma

Final Flight
Joined
May 12, 2007
I know pairs at the JGP level have no limitations, i.e. each country can send 3 pairs to each of the events where a pair event is skated, so that might be the case -- there aren't even enough Junior pairs to have them compete at all 7 JGP's!
 

nadster

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 1, 2004
I know pairs at the JGP level have no limitations, i.e. each country can send 3 pairs to each of the events where a pair event is skated, so that might be the case -- there aren't even enough Junior pairs to have them compete at all 7 JGP's!

Not true. New rules were put in last year after the last JW.

Before the rule change all teams could send 3 entries each JGP with a host country sending unlimited entries.

Now the new rules say only the top 5 countries at JW can send 3 entries to each JGP. Countries 6 -15 can send 2 pairs to each event and all other countries can send 1 pair to each event.

These new rules really have very little effect on the entries as only CAN, USA, RUS and CHN pretty much have all the quality pairs in any given year. I know that there is a good Japanese team this year but that is the exception rather than the rule.

Things can get interesting if more of the countries that traditionally don't have any quality junior pairs put out good pairs
 

bigsisjiejie

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 22, 2009
Make sure you don't assume the same entry rules for Jr Worlds and Jr Grand Prix.

Here's a cached view of the ISU's list of entrants for ISU championships for 2010--Communication #1565 document was issued in May 2009. Scroll to appropriate place and you will see under World Juniors, Pairs: "China 2 pairs."
 

RUKen

Rinkside
Joined
Jan 16, 2008
The lowest-placed pair has now been removed from the final standings. This statement appears at the bottom of the rankings:

Due to a wrong entry the pair - Xiaoyu Yu / Yang Yin - from China, placed originally 8th in the final result, had to be deleted. In the corrected versions of each result of segment and Final each of the lower placed couples will move up accordingly. Due to the deletion of the pair Xiaoyu Yu / Yang Yin from China, which was originally qualified for the final Free Skating, only 15pairs will belisted for the final result as having skated the Free Program.

This is absurd. It's as if the pair had cheated to achieve their placement.
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
Yu / Yin should never have competed at JW 2010 to begin with. China sent two pairs last year, and their placements added up to 19. The rules for the number of entries at JW are the same as they are for Worlds, so China had no right to send 3 teams to JW 2010.

It is right that Yu/Yin are disqualified and their prize money and points redistributed to the teams placing behind them. It's too bad for the team, but it is the only way to make things right for the 13 teams that legitimately deserved to be at JW.
 

RUKen

Rinkside
Joined
Jan 16, 2008
Yu / Yin should never have competed at JW 2010 to begin with. China sent two pairs last year, and their placements added up to 19. The rules for the number of entries at JW are the same as they are for Worlds, so China had no right to send 3 teams to JW 2010.

It is right that Yu/Yin are disqualified and their prize money and points redistributed to the teams placing behind them. It's too bad for the team, but it is the only way to make things right for the 13 teams that legitimately deserved to be at JW.

I understand the mistake that occurred, but it is not the only way to make things right for the other teams. This pair's entry into Jr. Worlds was accepted by the ISU and they competed fairly. Their results should still be official. I could see making the Chinese federation split among all three teams the prize money won by the top two teams, and recalculating points for the teams from other federations. There is no reason to penalize in this way the one team that happened to finish third of the three Chinese teams. They are being treated as if they failed a drug test or attacked their opponents.
 
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RUKen

Rinkside
Joined
Jan 16, 2008
You're essentally arguing that they should make the official result meaningless.

It would be meaningless for the Chinese Federation, but would still have some meaning for the skaters. As competitors, I am sure that they would prefer that their results are included on their ISU bio. And, if it is left to the Chinese Federation to distribute the prize money among their teams, then Yu and Jin could still get some money for their efforts without taking any away from the teams representing other federations.

I haven't seen any explanation for why the third place (among the Chinese) team has had to bear the entire penalty. What if they had finished ahead of Zhang and Wang? Would Z and W then be the pair that had illegally competed?
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
I understand the mistake that occurred, but it is not the only way to make things right for the other teams. This pair's entry into Jr. Worlds was accepted by the ISU and they competed fairly. Their results should still be official. I could see making the Chinese federation split among all three teams the prize money won by the top two teams, and recalculating points for the teams from other federations. There is no reason to penalize in this way the one team that happened to finish third of the three Chinese teams. They are being treated as if they failed a drug test or attacked their opponents.

No. The third team competed ILLEGALLY because the Chinese federation and the ISU both made mistakes. That team should not have been there at all. It is unfair to the teams LEGALLY competing at JW to have a non-entry finish above them.

The third team has lost the ISU ranking points and (I presume) the prize money for finishing 8th. All the teams from 9th-21st have been moved up one placement and have received the corrected number of ISU ranking points.

The third team DID get the experience of competing at JW, and that is invaluable. So it's not a win-lose situation at all.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
This pair's entry into Jr. Worlds was accepted by the ISU and they competed fairly. Their results should still be official.

I seems beyond belief that Yu and Yin themselves did not know that they were entered improperly. They can read the ISU rules, they can count to thirteen.

I am certain that they, like all other elite skaters, examine the ISU rules closely in order to calculate where they stand. I cannot believe that they were just innocent bystanders all ignorant of the rules of the competition.

Let's face it. The Chinese Federation tried to get away with something. It didn't work.
 

RUKen

Rinkside
Joined
Jan 16, 2008
I seems beyond belief that Yu and Yin themselves did not know that they were entered improperly. They can read the ISU rules, they can count to thirteen.

THREE teams were entered when only two should have been. How should Yu and Jin have known that THEY were the illegal team at the event? For that matter, does anyone really think that teenage pairs skaters spend time reading the ISU rules on eligibility for the Junior World Championships? Do we even know that Yu and Jin can read English?

I agree that the Chinese Federation bears responsibility for the improper entry, but I find it find it beyond belief that this particular pairs team knowingly participated in the deception. They were told that they were going to Europe to compete in the Junior Worlds. They went. They competed. And then they became non-persons, like Soviet politicians who fell out of favor with the Communist Party.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
THREE teams were entered when only two should have been. How should Yu and Jin have known that THEY were the illegal team at the event?
I bet all six of the skaters knew that only two teams were supposed to go. Athletes know the rules of the competitions they try to qualify for, even young ones. The head of the Chinese federation knew and had known for a year that only two teams could go. The vice president of the Chinese federation had known for more than a year that only two teams could go. The Secretary of the Chinese federation, the Team Leader that accompanied the athletes, the Chinese judges, the coaches of the three teams. Do you think that Yau Bin does not know the rules? How could anyone intimately involved in the sport not know this, when the goal every year is to try their hardest to place as many teams as possible, when they are eleted when they place three and dejected (a year before) because they only placed two.

Heck, even I know the rules, and I have nothing at all at stake in the matter.

For that matter, does anyone really think that teenage pairs skaters spend time reading the ISU rules on eligibility for the Junior World Championships?

Yes, if they are candidates for junior worlds they most certainly do. Wouldn't you, if this were your dream? They are not stupid. It would be a shame if they were to start pretending to be stupid now.

I agree that the Chinese Federation bears responsibility for the improper entry, but I find it find it beyond belief that this particular pairs team knowingly participated in the deception. They were told that they were going to Europe to compete in the Junior Worlds. They went. They competed. And then they became non-persons, like Soviet politicians who fell out of favor with the Communist Party.

It is true that they did not have any choice but to go when they were ordered to. But by the same token they cannot pretend to be disappointed when the ruse perpetrated by their elders failed.

Anyway, no one blames the athletes and no one is punishing them. They got a free trip around the world out of it, they got to skate at a prestigious event -- the only thing they suffered was an asterisk by their name in the record book. They'll be back next year.
 

skatemom1122

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 22, 2009
I am glad that the results have been revised and that the ISU acknowledged their faults. However, the Estonian team can never be compensated for this mistake. They should have qualified, and it can never be changed.
 

jennylovskt

Medalist
Joined
Oct 20, 2006
I think it's correct to remove the third Chinese team's record. They shouldn't be here, therefore, they cannot ask for anything more. I know if another Chinese pairs team placed lower than they did, another team would be removed, not them. But that's the least we can do because we know that China would send the top two teams to the JW. It's a little unfair to the being removed team, but there isn't anything totally fair.

On the other hand, what will ISU do with the person or persons who caused this error?
 
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watchvancouver

Match Penalty
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
I bet all six of the skaters knew that only two teams were supposed to go. Athletes know the rules of the competitions they try to qualify for, even young ones. . Do you think that Yau Bin does not know the rules?

.

This is why you're a mathematician who lives in Ivory tower. To expect these non-English speaking kids knowor care the details of those ever-changing rules is just ridiculous. Many hardcore fans on this board are living in a fantasy world. They chase every detail of obscure rules and CoP, and they believe all the coaches, skaters are just as obssessive as them. But this is just a fantasy. I read somewhere a young Chinese pairs skater has never seen the videos of Shen/Zhao's past performances. Yao could not even his young pair skater's name. Robin Wagner got the tips on the new rules of jump downgrades from some fans at her rink, and she got ridiculed by some fans on this board.

The truth is ISU is changing rules all the time. I doubt many coaches or skaters have the time to study anything irrelavant to them.

In China, there is no qualifying competitions. The coaches and perhaps leaders of the skating federation decide who should be sent to an international event.
 
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