What happened to Shelepen and Gao? | Page 2 | Golden Skate

What happened to Shelepen and Gao?

bekalc

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 1, 2006
Polina A won't likely ever be tall but she could become too sturdy to keep those difficult jumps, especially if she stays very short. A lot of skaters receive downgrades for 3-3s once they fill out. A lot of Russian women are short and stocky, some Russian coach even said that most Russian girls are built to work on the railroad. This is why I think Polina S and Anna have more potential, they have the ideal body type for skating and will likely still have the ideal body type once they finish growing just judging from their frames. This is also why I think Gao has potential to become really good in the future too because I don't think puberty will be an issue for her where she is so thin now at 16. I actually think for Gao puberty will help her become a stronger skater. Gao, Shelepen, and Ovcharova are substantially taller than Agafonova, Murakami, Baga, Tuktumysheva, and some of those other really young Russian girls and usually, girls that are tallish and thin at that age can fill out but still stay very lean while shorter girls can become stocky because their muscle is more compact, and this can effect spirals and spins as well as jumps. Gao, Shelepen, and Ovcharova I doubt will have issues with puberty, but Murakami, Agafonova, Baga, and some of those other Russian girls very well might.

Well here are some clips of young skaters some who became successful seniors some did not
Shizuka at 13 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dVd6N_0yRY&feature=related
Irina in 1993 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e00A9aXMEzQ
Naomi Nari Nam http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1S7EEHAM6nU
Sasha Cohen http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpZE4Hemcrg
Katy Taylor http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LiKzP6sy2U
Elene G (who we all know struggled with puberty) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuNpzXq_U3k&feature=related
Kimmie Meissner (struggled with puberty when she got a little older) in 8th grade
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhSCs72lDPs
Yukina Ota http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lcUcvHpPQM
Jenny Kirk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1rXt9n_3V8
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
The problem is not growing up but growing out. In particular, when girls mature into women, they acquire hips, and that completely changes the center of gravity. Jump technique that worked for a beanpole may not work for the same girl when she gets curvier. Adjustments have to be made, and in some cases, the girl never quite gets her jumps under control again.

A girl doesn't have to get heavy for this to happen, but sometimes weight gain is part of the problem. Think Miki Ando when she began to fill out in 2005-2006. She had a terrible year and all her jumps went south. It was only after she had trimmed down that she got her jumps back---but even then, she could no longer get her 4S and 3Z-3Lo ratified.
 
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bekalc

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 1, 2006
The problem is not growing up but growing out. In particular, when girls mature into women, they acquire hips, and that completely changes the center of gravity. Jump technique that worked for a beanpole may not work for the same girl when she gets curvier. Adjustments have to be made, and in some cases, the girl never quite gets her jumps under control again.

A girl doesn't have to get heavy for this to happen, but sometimes weight gain is part of the problem. Think Miki Ando when she began to fill out in 2005-2006. She had a terrible year and all her jumps went south. It was only after she had trimmed down that she got her jumps back---but even then, she could no longer get her 4S and 3Z-3Lo ratified.

This is what I'm thinking. One thing that I'm noticing about Polina A, which "I'm hoping" is she's not a bean pole, so I'm hoping it helps her but she could also really fill out which would be of course bad. I am worried about her though. I think jumping technique plays a role too. Is it really surprising that Jenny Kirk had trouble with puberty when her jumps were soo lowish from the very beginning?

And in Miki's case, when she was little there weren't the same ratifing rules but she always was a good technical jumper, and I think that helped her after puberty vs a lot of skaters who were never great jumpers.

If you look at the clip I have of Ota, she of course had injuries. But I think you notice that she had very much a ballerina body, but also not very good jumping technique even then it seemed. So I really do think jumping technique plays a role. Maybe not the only role, but a role it plays. Even in Meissner's case, when everyone like Button lauded her technique (although I wonder if it was her skating skills) she had a tendency to muscle jumps when she was little.
 
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silverlake22

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
This is what I'm thinking. One thing that I'm noticing about Polina A, which "I'm hoping" is she's not a bean pole, so I'm hoping it helps her but she could also really fill out which would be of course bad. I am worried about her though. I think jumping technique plays a role too. Is it really surprising that Jenny Kirk had trouble with puberty when her jumps were soo lowish from the very beginning?

And in Miki's case, when she was little there weren't the same ratifing rules but she always was a good technical jumper, and I think that helped her after puberty vs a lot of skaters who were never great jumpers.

If you look at the clip I have of Ota, she of course had injuries. But I think you notice that she had very much a ballerina body, but also not very good jumping technique even then it seemed. So I really do think jumping technique plays a role. Maybe not the only role, but a role it plays. Even in Meissner's case, when everyone like Button lauded her technique (although I wonder if it was her skating skills) she had a tendency to muscle jumps when she was little.

The only girl that is truly a "beanpole" right now is Shelepen, though, who I actually think resembles a young Kostner http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PT7LH6WYdQw. Anna is skinny but she does have a more defined figure than Shelepen, and though she does have long, thin limbs like a ballerina she is wiry and strong looking, she does not appear weak, she actually looks a lot like Alissa Czisny did at 17 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EshBlTFM0q8, even though she is younger, and Alissa has nerve problems but not puberty problems as far as I know of. As for Gao, she is 16 and a lot of Asian girls are as thin as her and don't get much bigger even as adults. Gao is built like Yuna at 15, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bG_-8J5OIKw , and Yuna did not have any real puberty problems. Agafonova could turn out more like Gedevanishvilli where she is so short (Elene is probably under 5 ft tall now) and that could cause problems. Murakami is also short so that could prove problematic, but most of the japanese skaters are very slight so she will probably be fine. Kiri is muscular and has broad shoulders so she could end up being built more like Joannie but in that case her jumps could get better.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
Well here are some clips of young skaters some who became successful seniors some did not
Shizuka at 13 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dVd6N_0yRY&feature=related
Irina in 1993 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e00A9aXMEzQ
Naomi Nari Nam http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1S7EEHAM6nU
Sasha Cohen http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpZE4Hemcrg
Katy Taylor http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LiKzP6sy2U
Elene G (who we all know struggled with puberty) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuNpzXq_U3k&feature=related
Kimmie Meissner (struggled with puberty when she got a little older) in 8th grade
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhSCs72lDPs
Yukina Ota http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lcUcvHpPQM
Jenny Kirk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1rXt9n_3V8

Thanks for all of the clips - what fun!
Most interesting to me is how much more polished and musical Sasha was at 14 than the others and even most of today's senior skaters. She was such a natural performer.

I never saw Shiz at such an early age - I see the potential there but her jumps barely get off the ice.

Baby Irina is interesting and sometimes I wonder if she had been taught better style and had better choreo at a young age if it would have helped her become a more artistic skater.
She is very rough around the edges and looks like a less graceful version of what a 13 year old Evan might have been :laugh:
 

bekalc

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 1, 2006
Anna is skinny but she does have a more defined figure than Shelepen, and though she does have long, thin limbs like a ballerina she is wiry and strong looking, she does not appear weak, she actually looks a lot like Alissa Czisny did at 17 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EshBlTFM0q8, even though she is younger, and Alissa has nerve problems but not puberty problems as far as I know of. As for Gao, she is 16 and a lot of Asian girls are as thin as her and don't get much bigger even as adults. Gao is built like Yuna at 15,

Alissa had bad jumping technique, and so I think it played a huge role in her "nerves" . In that sense I actually do think Anna is going to be like the Russian Alissa, lovely skater (although different) but inconsistent. This being said Anna is young enough to work on and improve her jumping technique, so hopefully she will.
 
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bluelutz

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 23, 2003
Wow, interesting thread.

Yelena Ivanova, Yelena Pingatcheva, Nadezhda Kanaeva, Yulia Soldatova, Viktoria Volchkova, Kristina Oblasova,
I remember those names very well, and sure they all disappeared besides Viktoria,
she did not medal at any big competitons but had a decent senior career.
And one more girl,
Yukari landed 3A at her first senior GPS, which was Skate America,
and at the same competition, a Russian girl landed 3A too, hers was better than Yukari's.
I think her name was Nelidina, and she disappeared completely after that,
though I do not know how she did in a junior ranks.

As for Kanako, she won because of two things, consistency and high PCS,
and also she has the speed & polished expressiveness(as a junior), which are something most of Junior ladies do not own.
She is actually not much older than Russian girls as this is only the second year of Junior eligibilty for her.

We have to wait and see about the future of Russian girls.
However, it is not difficult to predict about their dominance in the next season's JGPS,
and probably at least 5 out of 8 JGPS finalists going to be Russians.
I think at least two or three of them will survive as top senior skaters as there are so many of them now.
We will see.

And Yukina Ota, without injury, she could have competed at the Olympic,
too sad!
 

silverlake22

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
Alissa had bad jumping technique, and so I think it played a huge role in her "nerves" . In that sense I actually do think Anna is going to be like the Russian Alissa, lovely skater (although different) but inconsistent. This being said Anna is young enough to work on and improve her jumping technique, so hopefully she will.

In some ways you may be right, although Alissa always seems a little tentative to me, and she's tentative going into her jumps which is why she falls and under-rotates a lot. Anna actually seems a little reckless to me, she always goes for her triples even if they don't work out and if anything seems to skate with maybe a little too much energy. Alissa was a lot smaller/shorter than Anna when she was 14 so potentially Anna could become an amazon in coming years but hopefully she won't and will continue to work on her jumps, polish, and consistency.

Polina Agafonova where she's so small if she starts to have trouble with some of her jumps in coming years should just switch to pairs, she'd probably be very good at it and she would only need a few triples to be successful internationally on the senior level.
 

bekalc

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 1, 2006
The thing is with the whole Russian ladies have a hard time with success I could also ask this question
What happened to from the USA: Lisa Ervin, Jessica Mills, Sydney Vogel, Jennifer Kirk, Deanna Stellato, Anne Patrice McDononough, Katy Taylor, Emily Hughes, Christine Zukowski. Honorable mention can go to Bebe.

For Japan: Jungo Yaginuma, Yukiko Kashihira, Kumiko Koiwai, Yukina Ota.

And in some of the Russians case, a couple of them didn't exactly win as 14 year olds. So I think there were other factors to their disapperance. Plus the late 90s were a time when the Russians had a strong Senior team and so it was difficult to even make the teams then for Russia...One Russian girl of the names I mentioned one at 16. And was 11 at Juniors the next year. So I suspect she may have been a "skate of her life case."

Soldatova
If we ask what happened to Soldatova we have to ask what happened to Meissner, because Julia did medal at Senior worlds. According to wikopedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julia_Soldatova She placed 4th at Russian Nationals in 2000, didn't make the world team and so she switched over to compete for Belarus. She came back briefly in 2004 for Russia. Her results did go downhill when she finally started competiting for Belarus. It seemed like some of the Russians switched to other countries. I think this could easily happen again too.
 
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silverlake22

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
As for Kanako, she won because of two things, consistency and high PCS,
and also she has the speed & polished expressiveness(as a junior), which are something most of Junior ladies do not own.
She is actually not much older than Russian girls as this is only the second year of Junior eligibilty for her.

I actually agree about Kanako, she is good but I'm not convinced she is anything too special. I mean if you look at the protocol, if Anna had landed all her jumps and just received 0 GOEs for the ones she missed, and her spins scores and PCS were held constant, she would have gotten a 103.20, so with her SP lead of 0.80 she would have lost to Kanako by 2.47 points, and realistically if she had been clean her PCS probably would have been that much higher and she could have won. So essentially, if Anna had kept it together better in the LP, Kanako could have lost her title to a 13 year old who needs a lot of polish (though I still think she is awesome :agree:). Also, when Mirai was on the JGP and at Jr Worlds she got SP scores of like 65 (when she was only 14) and Rachael Flatt got FS scores of over 110. I also think Kanako has the advantage of not looking as awkward on the ice as some of her competitors like Gao and Shelepen who are a bit gangly, and that probably contributes to her high PCS.

So to me, Kanako is the best now, but I think Christina has better jump technique, Anna has better attack and extension, Kiri has better spins, and Polina S has better lines but while they have been not quite consistent this year because of growth spurts and being new on the JGP, Kanako can take advantage of her experience and being a bit older and that's why she wins. I think some of the other girls have potential to go farther than Kanako in the future.
 

oleada

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 27, 2007
Kanako had the best flow of all the ladies in the competition, IMO.

Kanako could've lost if Ovcharova skated clean, or if Zawadzki didn't fall in the short, etc....IF, IF, IF....
 

coconutpunch

Rinkside
Joined
Dec 29, 2008
Clearly some of us forgot that Kanako had a 5 triple program in her LP (she doubled the sal) and still scored over 100 and winning that segment of the competition. Like oleada said, IF, IF, IF.
 

bekalc

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 1, 2006
Kanako had the best flow of all the ladies in the competition, IMO.

Kanako could've lost if Ovcharova skated clean, or if Zawadzki didn't fall in the short, etc....IF, IF, IF....

:lol: Yeah and I think the Agnes and Ovcharova comparisions are silly because NEITHER girl is doing more difficulty than Kanako right now. And its not to be certain that they will ever do more difficulty than Kanako.

I actually think that Murakami is quite special in terms of her presentation, edges and flow accross the ice. As for her future, thats going to depend on whose there and what the technical level is like in ladies...
 

silverlake22

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
Clearly some of us forgot that Kanako had a 5 triple program in her LP (she doubled the sal) and still scored over 100 and winning that segment of the competition. Like oleada said, IF, IF, IF.

:laugh: true. I was impressed by Agnes' and Anna's PCS though, they were pretty high considering Agnes has no international resume and Anna is one of the babies of the competition, guess it means the judges must really like them :agree:. I also thought the scores were a bit high across the board here, not that Kanako's 106 was bogus but for 5 triples at a junior event I was surprised, and Anna got 88 points for a FS with 2 falls, a step out, a very shaky solo jump and a shaky jump sequence, and an under-rotated 3loop, leaving her 2a-2a sequence as the only strong jump sequence in the program, though she does have a lot of other good qualities. And then Kiri and Kate got pretty high scores for program with their jump content, though they also have a lot of other good qualities.

For now, Kanako has the edge on the other junior ladies, but we will see what happens to all of them in coming years, some could pass her potentially or Kanako may continue to get better and better like Yuna did. I was surprised to see how tall Agnes is, she is actually a foot taller than Polina and half a foot taller than Kanako, it's impressive she can jump so well at 5'6". She might even grow more and be even taller than Carolina will great jumps!
 

miki88

Medalist
Joined
Dec 28, 2009
I actually agree about Kanako, she is good but I'm not convinced she is anything too special. I mean if you look at the protocol, if Anna had landed all her jumps and just received 0 GOEs for the ones she missed, and her spins scores and PCS were held constant, she would have gotten a 103.20, so with her SP lead of 0.80 she would have lost to Kanako by 2.47 points, and realistically if she had been clean her PCS probably would have been that much higher and she could have won. So essentially, if Anna had kept it together better in the LP, Kanako could have lost her title to a 13 year old who needs a lot of polish (though I still think she is awesome :agree:). Also, when Mirai was on the JGP and at Jr Worlds she got SP scores of like 65 (when she was only 14) and Rachael Flatt got FS scores of over 110. I also think Kanako has the advantage of not looking as awkward on the ice as some of her competitors like Gao and Shelepen who are a bit gangly, and that probably contributes to her high PCS.

So to me, Kanako is the best now, but I think Christina has better jump technique, Anna has better attack and extension, Kiri has better spins, and Polina S has better lines but while they have been not quite consistent this year because of growth spurts and being new on the JGP, Kanako can take advantage of her experience and being a bit older and that's why she wins. I think some of the other girls have potential to go farther than Kanako in the future.

Under CoP, having clean jump techniques is essential, and that is what I think will hurt Kanako if she doesn't fix things such as the flutz. Seeing what happened to Mao, Yamada should really pay more attention to these things. If she doesn't fix it asap, Kanako will have problems later on.
 

wonderlen3000

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 8, 2008
:lol: Yeah and I think the Agnes and Ovcharova comparisions are silly because NEITHER girl is doing more difficulty than Kanako right now. And its not to be certain that they will ever do more difficulty than Kanako.

I actually think that Murakami is quite special in terms of her presentation, edges and flow accross the ice. As for her future, thats going to depend on whose there and what the technical level is like in ladies...

Yeap. Who knows!!! Remember the rule for FS has beening keep changing since it debuted in 2005 for World event. And look at how many ladies are doing a solid triple+triple or complete set of triple jumps. Even the great Yuna doesn't have a consistent 3Loop in her arsenol. Kanako doesn't have a 3Loop either but the loop jump is an egde jump hard on the hip so, she may get it under her once she gets older and stronger. Joannie doesn't have 3+3 but have a full sets of triple jumps and took her over 2 years to get the 3Lz correctly done.

But having special quality in term of presentation, flow and edge is always a plus and most of the time, its much harder to learn than the technical jumps. But if Kanako wants to break into senior circuit, she better start fixing her 3Lz and get the 3Loop and she should be in a good start for Sochi.
 

silverlake22

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
Yeap. Who knows!!! Remember the rule for FS has beening keep changing since it debuted in 2005 for World event. And look at how many ladies are doing a solid triple+triple or complete set of triple jumps. Even the great Yuna doesn't have a consistent 3Loop in her arsenol. Kanako doesn't have a 3Loop either but the loop jump is an egde jump hard on the hip so, she may get it under her once she gets older and stronger. Joannie doesn't have 3+3 but have a full sets of triple jumps and took her over 2 years to get the 3Lz correctly done.

But having special quality in term of presentation, flow and edge is always a plus and most of the time, its much harder to learn than the technical jumps. But if Kanako wants to break into senior circuit, she better start fixing her 3Lz and get the 3Loop and she should be in a good start for Sochi.

Kanako said she doesn't know if she wants to compete on the junior or senior GP next year. I guess where the senior ladies in Japan are such a deep field and the junior ladies are not, I understand why she would maybe want to stay on the junior circuit. However, she has won almost everything on the junior level so she might as well move up to seniors. Also, next year she would be old enough to go to senior worlds, though making the team in Japan would be very tough. I don't really see why a flutz is such a big deal though, most senior ladies have either a flutz or a lip or just avoid those jumps entirely. I mean, her flutz is really bad, but I feel like a slight flutz or lip isn't the end of the world and senior ladies can still be competitive internationally with them.
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
I did notice there were an unusual number of edge calls in the Ladies event (18 in the SP and 14 in the FS), and the penalties were pretty severe (-2 or more GOE). Usually, a flutz gets higher -GOE than a lip, because it's easier to take off on an inside edge, but not in this competition.

I also think it's ridiculous to chide Zawadzki for not having a 3/3. This was her first international competition ever. She well may need 3/3 if she wants to make the World team next year.

I think also that the young Russian ladies with their 3/3s may find as their bodies grow and they mature, that it will be harder to fully rotate the second triple. Ando and Asada have both received URs for 3/3s they used to do so easily.
 
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