Men SP starting order

I am sure you would pretty much answer your own doubts because what I saw in Joubert today was very similar to what Plushenko did in Vancouver. Yes, he got the big trick it was only one element and it wasn't that well done and the rest of his program sort of let him down and left the door open.

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Were you there? Because people who were there and saw Joubert live will say differently. Joubert had a great performance-that audience does not respond that way when someone has a poor performance-do that? He skated incredibly fast with a lot of sharp turns. His spins are very well centered and his footwork is fast as well. These things cannot be said about Plushenko's performance. And Joubert's lutz looked high enough to be a double.

In fact Ziggy over at FSU fan who is not a Joubert fan at all, said Joubert was the only man who was on his music the entire time.

ITA agree wallylutz. There's too many pros in Chan's box versus that one jump in Joubert.

lavender said:

ITA agree wallylutz. There's too many pros in Chan's box versus that one jump in Joubert.

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I agree. Tomas's PB SP score is 81, and he always goes for the 4-3, Adrian did 4-3 and got a 72! In the LP, the quad makes a difference, but in the SP it seems like it really doesn't.

Layfan said:

Also I watched Abbott and I didn't seen any tentativeness like some people are saying ... I thought he was fab! I guess he's a much quieter skater than some like Dai and Joubert so maybe that hurts him.

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Yes, I'm thinking Jeremy doesn't skate with enough confidence and maybe doesn't give the judges the impression that he knows he can deliver a strong performance when it really counts. I think this perception does hurt him in their eyes. He's so brilliant, but I think he doubts himself way too much under pressure. I really hope he delivers in the LP like I know he can!

silverlake22 said:

I agree. Tomas's PB SP score is 81, and he always goes for the 4-3, Adrian did 4-3 and got a 72! In the LP, the quad makes a difference, but in the SP it seems like it really doesn't.

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Jumps definitely play a smaller role in the SP vs. LP because in the SP, men have 3 jumping passes with only one of them a combo plus 3 spins and 2 step sequences or 5 non-jump elements. In the LP, the number of non-jump elements stay the same at 5, but now men have 8 jumping passes with the possibility of 3 of them being combos and/or sequences. So the % weight of non-jump elements drop significantly in the LP compared to the SP. Joubert's 4T + 3T combo gave him a 4.3 points advantage over Chan and Takahashi's 3F + 3T combo but keep in mind the latter two probably scored higher GOE on this element than Joubert's combo which had a rather shaky landing with a little hesitation between the two jumps and the element didn't carry as much flow or as smooth as it could have been. So minus the effect of GOE, that 4.3 advantage would likely have been undercut by a good 1 to 1.5 points already due to lesser GOE in my estimation. Then, you proceed to add up other elements, where there are 5 non-jump elements + 2 other jumps which are identical to both Chan and Takahashi's. Factoring the various GOE and with both Chan and Takahashi getting Level 4 in their Circular Step Sequence, doubling the GOE on that, I'd say I am surprised that 4.3 points advantage still hold till the end. Given a different panel, it is possible we could find Joubert's TES falling behind both Chan and Takahashi's.

museksk8r said:

Yes, I'm thinking Jeremy doesn't skate with enough confidence and maybe doesn't give the judges the impression that he knows he can deliver a strong performance when it really counts. I think this perception does hurt him in their eyes. He's so brilliant, but I think he doubts himself way too much under pressure. I really hope he delivers in the LP like I know he can!

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Or it could simply be a case that judges don't know him very well. He hasn't won a major title except GPF in 2008. He's got no world medal, and did poorly this year in the GPF and Olympic Games. Everybody else, Joubert, Chan and Takahashi have all won ISU Championships and World medals, especially Takahashi, who is a recent Olympic medalist. In the 2009 Worlds, Chan experienced similar treatment in his SP where he skated perfectly but only received 81 something and placed 3rd behind an error filled Joubert, who had 2 mistakes on his Quad combo, yet the Frenchman still won the SP. It's ironic that this year, Joubert, skating to the same music for his SP but managed a clean skate yet he now places behind Chan, who also skated to the same music as last year. I think this is probably supporting my theory that those ISU judges just don't know Abbott as well as most U.S. viewers and USFS people.

wallylutz said:

Jumps definitely play a smaller role in the SP vs. LP ....

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Thanks, wallylutz for your very reasoned and well-informed analysis and discussion. I have not enjoyed some of the bashing here and become confused rather than educated about the scoring. Posts like yours give me back my reasons for visiting these boards in the first place! Thank you.

wallylutz said:

Jumps definitely play a smaller role in the SP vs. LP because in the SP, men have 3 jumping passes with only one of them a combo plus 3 spins and 2 step sequences or 5 non-jump elements. In the LP, the number of non-jump elements stay the same at 5, but now men have 8 jumping passes with the possibility of 3 of them being combos and/or sequences. So the % weight of non-jump elements drop significantly in the LP compared to the SP. Joubert's 4T + 3T combo gave him a 4.3 points advantage over Chan and Takahashi's 3F + 3T combo but keep in mind the latter two probably scored higher GOE on this element than Joubert's combo which had a rather shaky landing with a little hesitation between the two jumps and the element didn't carry as much flow or as smooth as it could have been. So minus the effect of GOE, that 4.3 advantage would likely have been undercut by a good 1 to 1.5 points already due to lesser GOE in my estimation. Then, you proceed to add up other elements, where there are 5 non-jump elements + 2 other jumps which are identical to both Chan and Takahashi's. Factoring the various GOE and with both Chan and Takahashi getting Level 4 in their Circular Step Sequence, doubling the GOE on that, I'd say I am surprised that 4.3 points advantage still hold till the end. Given a different panel, it is possible we could find Joubert's TES falling behind both Chan and Takahashi's.

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Joubert did have the highest TES though (I think?), he is in 3rd because of PCS, which I actually think is deserved, he does not have good transitions and his choreography and interpretation are cheesy. I still love him, but I really just don't see his silly techno music SP getting 90 points.

silverlake22 said:

Joubert did have the highest TES though (I think?), he is in 3rd because of PCS, which I actually think is deserved, he does not have good transitions and his choreography and interpretation are cheesy. I still love him, but I really just don't see his silly techno music SP getting 90 points.

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Yes, he did, but barely though, considering the 4.3 advantage in base value differential from the Quad toe vs. Triple Flip. Like I said, the 4.3 points advantage is a big difference knowing that these men are literaly separated by decimals. Those who said Quads are being under-valued need to check the points table before they speak. The Quad toe alone is worth more than the Triple Flip + Triple Toe combo that both Chan and Takahashi did in their SP. The problem is not Quad is under-valued, it's that the skaters who did tend to be missing something else besides the Quad, aka, not having a complete a package. When Adrian Schultheiss landed a Quad + 8 Triples in his Olympic LP, nobody complained why he didn't finish in the Top 10. This is because most viewers can see that Mr. Schultheiss is still lacking a little bit in his program delivery, his skating skills, which need more speed and deeper edge and etc. Or for that matter, Kevin Reynolds landed an even more difficult Quad combo, a Quad Salchow + Triple Toe, and is now only 14th. Again, to the untrained eyes, it would seem outrageous the guy who landed the most difficult Quad combo of the day is only 14th and that combo is not only more difficult than Joubert's Quad Toe + Triple Toe, it was also better executed as well. What gives? The answer is Kevin Reynolds is missing something elsewhere, notably singling his Axel and his other elements could still be stronger. Isn't it funny that with these lower rank skaters, people don't seem to have a problem understanding why despite landing high difficulty jumps, these skaters aren't higher than they are whereas a top gun like Joubert who did but missed other things should suddenly be given a freepass on his little misses on other elements? Essentially, that's what Plushenko was whining about in Vancouver. But he needed to be reminded that he wasn't the only one who landed a Quad and 8 Triples in the LP and that guy didn't even complain about not making it to the Top 10 whereas Plushenko had to give himself a Platinum medal for his effort. You be the judge, is that fair?

I read Nob's interview and he did not know what happened.

Takahashi is amazing.

Gotta love the quad bonus. But I can't deny that Brian was on (and it's more annoying with Reynolds anyway). The fist pump didn't take me out of his program all that much given that it's essentially a populist skating piece (a gala dressed up as a competition entry). And yeah, even rooting against him, I can't help but be happy he redeemed himself.

Patrick Chan was great. I do think seniorita has a point about his smaller jumps, though. While, when landed, his triple axel is huge, his combos always seem a little short. But his footwork is amazing. He does so much with so little, and I love his arm movements throughout. He's learning musical expression, and it's true he doesn't emote as much as the top skaters, but it's still amazing to behold.

Kozuka - you know, I know people complain about his PCS being lower than Chan, but he just doesn't display the same command of the ice as Chan/Takahashi/etc. But he's so great. Brezina's good too - I don't quite buy his musicality but he's certainly got presence. Abbott.. well, he's got my favourite SP of the season, but I'm fine with this score. A little tentative.

Rippon has so beautiful clarity of movement with this program. I'm sad that he took out the spread eagle before the Rippon lutz though. And his "finally beat Yu-Na" comment was priceless.

Fernandez' 3-3 was gorgeous. Contesti should get the Pretty European Bonus.

colleen o'neill said:

Jeremy - redeemed!

Patrick - redeemed!

even..Brian - redeemed ( but tired of your pelvis, Brian...everyone's got one ).

Daisuke - Close to godliness

Takahashi ; Adam - sw-e-e-et

Nobu -

Dog walking - me , right now.

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You have my life and my mind.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UN13z5H5IvM
Men's sp press conference. Watch 7:30. A reporter asked a question to Joubert. He seemed he didn't fully understand it and got confused. Chan translated the question to Joubert. What a cute moment. I didn't know Chan can speak French, too.

After watching YouTube, if I were a judge, I'd've put the following skaters in top 3:

1. Dai
2. Brian
3. Takahiko (Kozuka)

I thought Patrick was overscored.

Jaana said:

I really hate to see skaters congratulating themselves during a performance like Joubert did.

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I totally hate this too and Brian and pumped his fist each time he jumped. I understand he was happy for himself after the season he had so I don't want to be hard on him but still I hate it whoever whenever a skater does that during performance.

To me it was just like Lipinski and Hughes' huge grins and smiling after landing their jumps-it is really just a part of skating.

lksunga said:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UN13z5H5IvM
Men's sp press conference. Watch 7:30. A reporter asked a question to Joubert. He seemed he didn't fully understand it and got confused. Chan translated the question to Joubert. What a cute moment. I didn't know Chan can speak French, too.

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Heh. Even funnier given the question.

ImaginaryPogue said:

Heh. Even funnier given the question.

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So true. It was really cute, but hilarious at the same time.

gmyers said:

To me it was just like Lipinski and Hughes' huge grins and smiling after landing their jumps-it is really just a part of skating.

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Me too. Given what he is portraying, his fist pumps have become a part of his performance and interpretation. Didn't take anything off.

Thanks for posting that press conference Takahashi (through translator) says its 33% flip 33% toe loop and 33% no quad at all for his LP.