The Camel Spin and the Male Skater | Page 2 | Golden Skate

The Camel Spin and the Male Skater

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
Does the Cranston camel require signifcant torso/core body change? Then it would be a difficult variation, if not, it's merely "pretty" and may factor into GOEs. The "martini" position that Karademir does also qualifies as a difficult variation of the camel which I neglected to mention in my first list.

There is a skater at our rink who does a camel with HER leg significantly higher than her head (she also has a near 180 split spiral without warming up). Most of the guys at our rink do a "mamel" (man camel which is more sideways in the core than the body down).
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
you've got me thinking now. I think we are confusing the torso. I believe in the book of definitions, it's the torso that is paralel with the ice, and the free leg and head are where one puts them. The boys have trouble with the forward entry into a camel. The back camel as a result of a flying is passable.

I've been away from skating for some time and really not familiar with Toller Cranston but I've heard quite a bit about him.

Skaters tend to arch the lower back, but in ballet class I was told to arch the upper back. (It's blasphemy to appear acrobatic in classic ballet.)
 

sk8rdad

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 2, 2009
ewow, you really are intense on the head to free leg. I would say they are both up. I'm not talking about a penchet arabasque if that's what you mean. Maybe this is clearer for you: A standard spiral position spinning is correct. Does that sound better? If you check out the good Pairs Teams, the male skater matches his partner's leg position in spirals and camels. Single male skaters don't bother with that, except those that believe in good line. Check out Lambiels and Takahashis (horrid) against Overett (super! no comparison).

The free leg is placed up and the hip automaticallty goes with it. It's a single movement. Not a hip first and then the free leg. The head is up but it can be down in a Charlotte. Of course, no one does a Charlotte Camel. As for 'horrid camel positions'. maybe they take off for skating skills in PC. If they do they should take off for URs also. JMO.

Back to the point. Are judges concerned about the lack of good camels in single male skating? I don't think so. they are more concerned about how one lands a jump. Jumps mean more in male skating than spin positions.

So what your suggesting is a camel spin with the free leg at say 45 degrees or more from horizontal but without a hand supporting the position at the knee (see the Toller video gkelly referenced). If it were done it would likely get a variation bullet as I would imagine it would be difficult to accomplish.

Judges would not alter the SS marks for bad camels as the SS mark has nothing to do with the element that are marked in the TES score the same goes for UR's. The marking of these items is part of the element. From the ISU site here is the definition of SS.

Skating Skills
Definition: Over all skating quality: edge control and flow over the ice surface demonstrated by a
command of the skating vocabulary (edges, steps, turns, etc), the clarity of technique, and the use of
effortless power to accelerate and vary speed.
Criteria:
Balance, rhythmic knee action, and precision of foot placement
Flow and effortless glide
Rhythm, strength, clean strokes, and an efficient use of lean create a steady run to the
blade and an ease of transfer of weight resulting in seemingly effortless power and
acceleration.
Cleanness and sureness of deep edges, steps, and turns
The skater should demonstrate clean and controlled curves, deep edges, and steps.
Varied use of power/energy, speed, and acceleration
Variety is the gradation – some of which may be subtle
Multi directional skating
Includes all direction of skating: forward and backward, clockwise and
counterclockwise including rotation in both directions.
Mastery of one foot skating
No over use of skating on two feet.
Pair Skating and Ice Dancing: Equal mastery of technique by both partners shown in unison.
Ice Dancing: Compulsory Dance – Ice Coverage

The judges are concerned with all aspects of skating, this is why skaters like Patrick Chan win medals without having a quad.
 

sk8rdad

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 2, 2009
It depends how you get there.
See "Similar" to Biellmann' position at the bottom of p. 10 (p. 4 of 6 in the spins section):
http://www3.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-197593-214816-125742-0-file,00.pdf

Also, what about the "catch-knee" Cranston camel position in the combination spin about 1:38 here?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCsQEzXT6xA

No increase of speed, but would that count as a difficult variation? I would hope so.

It's also a rare example of a camel spin with the free foot higher than the head, without holding the blade.

Joe, can you find any videos of camel spins with the free foot higher than the head and no hand assist, from men or women? It's just not very common to have the free foot that high in the spin. In a spiral, absolutely; the balance is different.

Actually in the Cranston spin (god he was good) his free foot at no time is above his head. The "Similar to Biellmann position" is an interesting issue and I think many skaters avoid it because they are afraid it will get called as an upright which could affect the nature of the spin being called, I know a few coaches that avoid it because some tech callers don't understand that it is a also a camel variation.
 

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll
Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2003
Todd Eldredge gets my vote for best male Camel spin :p

nope, Kurt Browning wins hands down!

I love teh classic camel spin for the men and the pairs, not a fan of the ladies doing it though... go figure... I miss it.
 

bibi24

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 31, 2009
Todd does beautiful camel spins.

nope, Kurt Browning wins hands down!

I love teh classic camel spin for the men and the pairs, not a fan of the ladies doing it though... go figure... I miss it.

Browning's was nice too, good arch back like Paul Wylie.

I like Todd for his LONG camel spins, usually holds for at least 5-8 revolutions. Todd does Camel change camel, and flying camel. While other men usually do Sit change sit, flying sit, or only the camel 2 revs as part of a combo spin. Maybe Todd's CW spin direction and unique position had something to do with it, also the text book centering as well as maintaining speed.

Yea ladies not so much, I guess they have a bunch of other spins like layback etc.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I love the classic camel spin for the men and the pairs, not a fan of the ladies doing it though...

Yea ladies not so much, I guess they have a bunch of other spins like layback etc.

I wonder if there is just something manly and unfeminine about the possition itself.

Ryan Bradley (young age) http://www.frogsonice.com/skateweb/reports/2002-mids/bradley-2.jpg

Tara: http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/competitive-figure-skating-7.jpg

PS. Is a donut spin a camel variation?
 

seniorita

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
I love donut spin! I love donuts in general, spin, chocolate, everything!!:biggrin:
According to your analysis, Plushy doesnt have good camel??? Just asking theoritically.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
I wonder if there is just something manly and unfeminine about the possition itself.

Ryan Bradley (young age) http://www.frogsonice.com/skateweb/reports/2002-mids/bradley-2.jpg

Tara: http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/competitive-figure-skating-7.jpg

PS. Is a donut spin a camel variation?
The Bradley one is more to my liking. The Tara one looks as though she could not get her free foot higher probably because it looks like it's a side camel spin.

The entry into the forward camel spin is important.

Stephane and Daisuke enter it as if they would do a straight-up spin, and then lift their hip up dragging the leg into position whereas Jeremy will use a bend down position while lifting his leg up at the same time as his hip. They are already in a parallel position. From then on it's flexibility time.
The low entry position gathers more speed than the straight hip up entry. The science of physics plays a role here but not sure of the rule.

I don't know if a donut can be executed on its own terms. I think it needs a camel first for the speed. It's a position way after my time on skates.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I love donut spin! I love donuts in general, spin, chocolate, everything!!:biggrin:

According to your analysis, Plushy doesn't have good camel??? Just asking theoritically.

Yes, I think Plushenko has an excellent flying camel.

http://patinajeando.files.wordpress.com/2007/11/plushenko2.jpg

Here are attempts at "girly" versions that I don't care so much for:

http://img.coxnewsweb.com/B/01/83/61/image_361831.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fa/Yuna_camel_spin-webspider-2O1U2248.jpg
 

antmanb

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
Thanks for the correction on the three basic positions bullet!

Just out of interest would a catch foot in a camel position where you bend the free leg at the knee and catch the blade with the opposite hand count as a difficult variation of a camel? If you keep your body parallel to the ice presumably it would still be a camel? I also find that bringing the leg in speeds up the spin, and also makes it clear (as an adult!) that your foot is at or above hip height in order to have it called as a camel.

Ant
 

antmanb

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
Yep - that's the donut spin

Just to clarify something - I always thought the donut spin had the skater's body turned out to the side so that the chest and stomach are turned out to wards the boards and the free leg is bent back to wards the head, almost Bielmann-like.

The position I mean is fairly easy in that the chest, shoulders stomach are all still facing down towards the ice and the free leg comes up towards the ceiling to be caught by the free hand.

Does that make sense...and is still a "donut"?

Ant
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
Thanks for that - would it be a difficult variation do you think? Maybe for us lowly adult skaters at least?

Ant

Yes, it's a difficult variation. The martini variation is done by Karademir. She was at our rink a couple weekends visiting some friends and tried to teach it to me (no luck). The plain catch camel is done by Flatt in her flying camel and is counted as a feature.
 
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