Strange results in the men's short | Page 5 | Golden Skate

Strange results in the men's short

sk8rdad

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 2, 2009
In SS, his spin might be better but Joubert did a perfect 4-3 (the only one in the top 6 skaters). So their SS should be at least even or Joubert's higher.

The SS part of the component marks has absolutely nothing to do with the individual elements marked in the TES scores. So comparing Chan's spins and Jouberts Quad is meaningless in this context. Below is the definition and criteria for SS from the ISU site and IMO Joubert shouldn't even be close to Chan in this category.

Skating Skills
Definition: Over all skating quality: edge control and flow over the ice surface demonstrated by a
command of the skating vocabulary (edges, steps, turns, etc), the clarity of technique, and the use of
effortless power to accelerate and vary speed.
Criteria:
Balance, rhythmic knee action, and precision of foot placement
Flow and effortless glide
Rhythm, strength, clean strokes, and an efficient use of lean create a steady run to the
blade and an ease of transfer of weight resulting in seemingly effortless power and
acceleration.
Cleanness and sureness of deep edges, steps, and turns
The skater should demonstrate clean and controlled curves, deep edges, and steps.
Varied use of power/energy, speed, and acceleration
Variety is the gradation – some of which may be subtle
Multi directional skating
Includes all direction of skating: forward and backward, clockwise and
counterclockwise including rotation in both directions.
Mastery of one foot skating
No over use of skating on two feet.
Pair Skating and Ice Dancing: Equal mastery of technique by both partners shown in unison.
Ice Dancing: Compulsory Dance – Ice Coverage
 

CdnSkateWatcher

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 21, 2010
The SS part of the component marks has absolutely nothing to do with the individual elements marked in the TES scores. So comparing Chan's spins and Jouberts Quad is meaningless in this context. Below is the definition and criteria for SS from the ISU site and IMO Joubert shouldn't even be close to Chan in this category.

Skating Skills
Definition: Over all skating quality: edge control and flow over the ice surface demonstrated by a
command of the skating vocabulary (edges, steps, turns, etc), the clarity of technique, and the use of
effortless power to accelerate and vary speed.
Criteria:
Balance, rhythmic knee action, and precision of foot placement
Flow and effortless glide
Rhythm, strength, clean strokes, and an efficient use of lean create a steady run to the
blade and an ease of transfer of weight resulting in seemingly effortless power and
acceleration.
Cleanness and sureness of deep edges, steps, and turns
The skater should demonstrate clean and controlled curves, deep edges, and steps.
Varied use of power/energy, speed, and acceleration
Variety is the gradation – some of which may be subtle
Multi directional skating
Includes all direction of skating: forward and backward, clockwise and
counterclockwise including rotation in both directions.
Mastery of one foot skating
No over use of skating on two feet.
Pair Skating and Ice Dancing: Equal mastery of technique by both partners shown in unison.
Ice Dancing: Compulsory Dance – Ice Coverage

ITA. I watched both programs back/to/back last night a few times - Chan to Joubert and vice versa. Did some stop action and slow-motion comparisons. Chan is simply more intricate and more "polished" in his edges and skating skills. Could Joubert be better if he wasn't going after the bigger jumps? Perhaps. The bigger jumps do mean less transitions and more setup. Because Chan isn't doing the bigger jumps, he can fit in more transitions and demonstrate more skating skills. Thus, Joubert deserves the bigger points on the Technical side, and Chan the bigger points on the skills side, because each is putting a different component of skating on the ice. What will be interesting is to see if Chan's skating skill scores decline if he includes a Quad in his programs, or, if he's able to put the same level of skills on the ice while still accomodating for the physical requirements of the bigger jumps. Then, we'll be comparing apples to apples with the two.
 

wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Tara said what Joesitz said.
About the quad-triple is 4.3 higher than a flip triple combo, it's not enough because 4.3 does not reflect how much harder it is to add one more revolution in the air. The reward is not enough. Real skaters all said it. Michael Weiss, Kristi Yamaguchi, Peter Carruthers, Tara Lipinski, Johnny Weir. I would imagine real skaters know how hard it is to add one more revolution in the air compare to fans sitting at home saying 4.3 is perfectly enough. There are people who regularly do triples said the base value for quad is too low, and then there are people who couldn't do single toe and think adding another revolution is only worth so and so. Seriously? janetfan, seriously? =)

I think you added way too many names on that list, some of the quoted skaters will probably object you misconstruct their statements. Furthermore, none of them have specifically said 4.3 of difference is not large enough, ever. In fact, I don't think any of them bother to calculate it out and see. It's very different when you say something based on how you feel and when you actually write it out and reflect. I often formulate a different opinion between just calling it based on my gut feeling vs. when I actually sit down and write it out and calculate something. Besides, the points table aren't exactly determined by some whimp either. The point table established by ISU is obviously the products of experts in this field, many of which are experienced former skaters who are much more senior than any of the said skaters you quoted. I know one ISU judge who was involved in the IJS project last skated in the 1970's. The 4.3 of difference is most definitely not something that casual fans come up with, I think you completely mischaracterize what it is. Besides, the value of Quad has already been revised up once so and may yet change again. The point is it's hard to strike a fine balance and this is by no means an easy task to do. But I have no reason to doubt the point difference, whatever it is, is the work of very knowledgeable and experienced people in figure skating. And this obviously includes more than just a few big names that you see on TV, who should I say, sometimes don't seem to know what they are talking about and more into looking good than anything else, without naming names.
 

antmanb

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
I think Daisuke was overscored about 2 ponts. He wasn't as floaty as he used to be, and the landing of some of his jumps were apparently wobbly.

IMO It should've been,

1. Patrick Chan
2. Daisuke Takahashi
3. Brian Joubert

Apparently? "..the landing of some of his jumps were apparently wobbly..."?

Did you watch the skating? Saying "apparently" sugests not, and yet you have an opinion on what the results should have been?

Ant
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I do not know what the poster may have meant, but my interpretation is that a quad takes more preparation and focus than a triple, resulting in less transitions.

It is true that preparing for a quad results in fewer transitions.

How does this make the judges stupid?
 

FlattFan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
I think you added way too many names on that list, some of the quoted skaters will probably object you misconstruct their statements. Furthermore, none of them have specifically said 4.3 of difference is not large enough, ever. In fact, I don't think any of them bother to calculate it out and see. It's very different when you say something based on how you feel and when you actually write it out and reflect. I often formulate a different opinion between just calling it based on my gut feeling vs. when I actually sit down and write it out and calculate something. Besides, the points table aren't exactly determined by some whimp either. The point table established by ISU is obviously the products of experts in this field, many of which are experienced former skaters who are much more senior than any of the said skaters you quoted. I know one ISU judge who was involved in the IJS project last skated in the 1970's. The 4.3 of difference is most definitely not something that casual fans come up with, I think you completely mischaracterize what it is. Besides, the value of Quad has already been revised up once so and may yet change again. The point is it's hard to strike a fine balance and this is by no means an easy task to do. But I have no reason to doubt the point difference, whatever it is, is the work of very knowledgeable and experienced people in figure skating. And this obviously includes more than just a few big names that you see on TV, who should I say, sometimes don't seem to know what they are talking about and more into looking good than anything else, without naming names.

Are you serious?
Terry asked a panel of skaters during the Olympics.
Terry: Do you think the base value of the quad should be higher?
Kristi: Yes
Peter: Yes
Michael Weiss: Yes

Yesterday, Peter asked the same question
Tara: Yes
Johnny: Yes.

A simple yes is a simple yes. They all said the base should be worth more. Currently it's 4.3. So obviously the difference 4.3 is NOT enough.

I added way too many names to that list? You think I just made up these things? Anyone who has Universal Sports and watched these segment can back me up.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
Are you serious?
Terry asked a panel of skaters during the Olympics.
Terry: Do you think the base value of the quad should be higher?
Kristi: Yes
Peter: Yes
Michael Weiss: Yes

Yesterday, Peter asked the same question
Tara: Yes
Johnny: Yes.

A simple yes is a simple yes. They all said the base should be worth more. Currently it's 4.3. So obviously the difference 4.3 is NOT enough.

I added way too many names to that list? You think I just made up these things? Anyone who has Universal Sports and watched these segment can back me up.

One of the reasons the quad value is the way it is was so that an AMERICAN skater aka the "quad king" would not win simply because he was the BEST quad jumper.

Thinking to the futue - do we want to see a skater lacking in many qualities but who is a terrific quad jumper be considered the best male skater? :think:

If you say yes - then you are suggesting that it was Tim Goebel, aka the "Quad King" who should have won the OGM in 2002.

Now doesn't that sound riidiculous - perhaps bordering on stupidity? Of course Yags was the best in 2002.
I can see we have different viewpoints - as you think Rachael is the best Lady skater. Many others disagree. Even if Rachael did a 3A or a quad - she still would not be the best all around Lady skater. Skating - as determined by experts - is about more than one element.

What part of this don't you get?

It does make me think about the "barrel jumping" competition though. As Joe said - no music and let's just see who has the best jumps.......zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz :)
 

FlattFan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
One of the reasons the quad value is the way it is was so that an AMERICAN skater aka the "quad king" would not win simply because he was the BEST quad jumper.

Thinking to the futue - do we want to see a skater lacking in many qualities but who is a terrific quad jumper be considered the best male skater? :think:

If you say yes - then you are suggesting that it was Tim Goebel, aka the "Quad King" who should have won the OGM in 2002.

Now doesn't that sound riidiculous - perhaps bordering on stupidity? Of course Yags was the best in 2002.
I can see we have different viewpoints - as you think Rachael is the best Lady skater. Many others disagree. Even if Rachael did a 3A or a quad - she still would not be the best all around Lady skater. Skating - as determined by experts - is about more than one element.

You continue to miss the point. In 2002, Yag did 3 quads. One in the SP, 2 in the LP. Tim did 4. The point is the champion all did quads and more. Yag program was better and he had the quads. He won. Fair and square.
In 2010, people who backed down from technical difficulty, of course, had an easier time with the program. Real skaters said it takes a lot to prep for the quad, it takes a lot to refocus after the quad. The non-quad skaters benefit greatly from not doing the quad.

I don't think Rachael is the greatest. Do I think she's top 3 at the Olympics? No. Do I think she should be ahead of Mirai, Miki, Lepisto? Absolutely yes.

Quads are important and should be a required element so the judges can compare apple to apple. If you do a quad, see how much transition or choreography you can put in before the quad.
 

lavender

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Rachael is the best Lady skater

That doesn't even sound right.lol

Anyone watching can see how much more Patrick is doing - that doesn't mean you have to be his fan - but his SP is just loaded with CH, TR and IN. His skating - when he is on and landing jumps is clearly superior.

ITA...I'm really not a fan of Chan winning this thing but Joubert has one element over Patrick and that's the quad. That's just not enough for me but that's just me.

I do think the quad should be worth more then maybe things can balance out and the judges can stop inflating Joubert and Plushenko's pcs scores.
 
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janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
You continue to miss the point. In 2002, Yag did 3 quads. One in the SP, 2 in the LP. Tim did 4. The point is the champion all did quads and more. Yag program was better and he had the quads. He won. Fair and square.
In 2010, people who backed down from technical difficulty, of course, had an easier time with the program. Real skaters said it takes a lot to prep for the quad, it takes a lot to refocus after the quad. The non-quad skaters benefit greatly from not doing the quad.

I don't think Rachael is the greatest. Do I think she's top 3 at the Olympics? No. Do I think she should be ahead of Mirai, Miki, Lepisto? Absolutely yes.

Quads are important and should be a required element so the judges can compare apple to apple. If you do a quad, see how much transition or choreography you can put in before the quad.

OK, fair enough - and if they change the rules to what you want - then we will see mandatory quads.

Until then - whether we like current CoP rules or not - that is the way skaters must be judged.

I think Joubert does a nice 4x3 and a few other decent jumps. I find every other aspect of his skating to be average at best.

Reading what Wally said - and others - a quad right now does not automatically mean a skater wins. Not to bring up Goebel again - but if one quad beats no quads - then you lose me in your logic coz it easily follows that 4 quads beat 3 quads.

OK- that is not what you are saying. But what are you saying? That one quad is enough to beat superior TR, CH, IN, spins and steps?

No one can belive such a thing!
 

silverlake22

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
I don't think Rachael is the greatest. Do I think she's top 3 at the Olympics? No. Do I think she should be ahead of Mirai, Miki, Lepisto? Absolutely yes.

Well her 3f-3t is solid and she's consistent but her spins, flexibility, speed, and presence on the ice don't compare to Mirai's, her basic skating and edge quality is nowhere near that of Laura, and she doesn't get as much height in her jumps as Miki. All four of these skaters are fairly comparable, but I don't agree that Rachael is absolutely better than the other three. She can do difficult jumps, yes, but the jumps themselves aren't actually that impressive and she's a bit slow and sloppy in her spins/presentation. That's just how I see it. If they were all at their best, I would rank Rachael last among the 4, but Rachael rarely makes mistakes so if the others do and she is clean, then sure she should be ahead, but you're forgetting that Mirai and Miki skated clean LPs at the Olympics and Laura only doubled one jump.
 

lavender

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Joubert is doing one bigger jump than mostly everyone else. That's only one jump and it's shouldn't stop him from having transitions. It certainly shouldn't stop him from having better and more intricate choreography.
 

wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Are you serious?
Terry asked a panel of skaters during the Olympics.
Terry: Do you think the base value of the quad should be higher?
Kristi: Yes
Peter: Yes
Michael Weiss: Yes

Yesterday, Peter asked the same question
Tara: Yes
Johnny: Yes.

A simple yes is a simple yes. They all said the base should be worth more. Currently it's 4.3. So obviously the difference 4.3 is NOT enough.

I added way too many names to that list? You think I just made up these things? Anyone who has Universal Sports and watched these segment can back me up.

Yes, I am totally serious. Plus, some of them didn't actually say: "yes". You simply interpreted their non-verbal language the way you see fit. Even then, the current base value of Quad toe is 9.8, not 4.3 as you incorrectly stated in your post, it tells me you have no idea what you are talking about (see bold). Since you don't even know the numbers, what makes you think everyone know this CALCULATED number by heart? What makes you think the people being asked are aware of the numerial difference, which comes from 9.8 - 5.5 despite the fact that none of them had seen the protocol yet as Johnny admitted that he didn't? What makes you think they are fully aware of the thoughts process going into? As far as I am concerned, none of the people you quoted have actually sit in a judge chair's and actually quantify the impact of these jumps. All they go by is their hunch and they were asked a hot button generic question, where controversy makes good TV. I feel pretty confident when they are presented with the complete picture of what that difference actually is between a 4T and a 3F, some of them will change their mind.

All they had to go by was a hunch. But once told that Joubert admitted having errors on spins and steps sequences and even his jump combo wasn't as smooth as the other 2 in the post-SP conference, I bet you many of these same "experts" you quoted would be suddenly and quick to change their take because they'd be amaze how much sway the Quad actually hold to keep Joubert's TES on top despite those misses.
 
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FlattFan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
Yes, I am totally serious. Plus, some of them didn't actually say: "yes". You simply interpreted their non-verbal language the way you see fit. Even then, the current base value of Quad toe is 9.8, not 4.3 as you incorrectly stated in your post, it tells me you have no idea what you are talking about (see bold). Since you don't even know the numbers, what makes you think everyone know this CALCULATED number by heart? What makes you think the people being asked are aware of the numerial difference, which comes from 9.8 - 5.5 despite the fact that none of them had seen the protocol yet as Johnny admitted that he didn't? What makes you think they are fully aware of the thoughts process going into? As far as I am concerned, none of the people you quoted have actually sit in a judge chair's and actually quantify the impact of these jumps. All they go by is their hunch and they were asked a hot button generic question, where controversy makes good TV. I feel pretty confident when they are presented with the complete picture of what that difference actually is between a 4T and a 3F, some of them will change their mind.

All they had to go by was a hunch? But once told that Joubert admitted having errors on spins and steps sequences and even his jump combo wasn't as smooth as the other 2 in the post-SP conference, I bet you many of these same "experts" you quoted would be suddenly and quick to change their take.

OMG. 4.3 was the difference between the 4T-3T and 3F-3T combo. I wasn't talking about the base value for the quad. Sometimes reading required context. Sadly you didn't understand. Which one didn't actually say yes? Please give a name because I watched the interviews and all said yes.
 

wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
OMG. 4.3 was the difference between the 4T-3T and 3F-3T combo. I wasn't talking about the base value for the quad. Sometimes reading required context. Sadly you didn't understand. Which one didn't actually say yes? Please give a name because I watched the interviews and all said yes.

Is that so, here is a direct quote from you: <<They all said the base should be worth more. Currently it's 4.3>>

In English, it refers to the last noun referenced, which is the word "base" in this case. In other words, your sentence can be re-written as Currently base is 4.3

I think I read you more than correctly. Just admit you made a gaffe and move on, it's not a big deal, nobody requires you to know the point table by heart in order to participate here. It's legitimate question that reasonable people can disagree. It is what is though, just as you can find some skaters who said it's undervalued, there will be tons other who disagreed. And all those opinions are valid. The point is these numbers aren't derived by some amateurs as you first implied and that I am insistant that you take it back because that's quite disrespectful towards the men and women who worked on the IJS project to get us where we are today.
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Could you please go back to the original post that I have responded to? I was refering to what Poodlepal said.:sheesh:

I agree with you on this. To me, Chan does have connections with the audience but his performance was just that. It was not on the par with Takahashi and Joubert. I actually think that Joubert did better than Takahashi this time. I don't see anything from Chan should be better than Joubert in PCS except TR. In SS, his spin might be better but Joubert did a perfect 4-3 (the only one in the top 6 skaters). So their SS should be at least even or Joubert's higher.



Again, you took my post out of context! Mister!

No, Chan's skating is not all about the deep edges, BUT his deep edge seems to have covered everything in judges' mind and in many Chan's fans' mind, and been hyped as the next best thing, or rather the best thing in the world right now. He has deep edges in his skating better than most of the male skaters. That's it, and that's all. Too much emphasize on the edges. That is not right! That is not all the men's skating about. He is competitive in his skating. However, does he have the best spin in the world? Does he have the best jump in the world? (Goodness, he is struggling with his 3A a lot of the times.) His footwork is one of the best in the world but is not THE best. His program is definitely not the best. It's just an average in the top 6 skaters. He didn't go all the way out in his performance. So he is over scored. Period!

1. Thanks for your response.

2. I don't think I took your initial comment out of context. I do believe that Poodlepal was being sarcastic. I have no such read on you, so I asked you to explain.

3. Following the list wallylutz posted, where do you feel Joubert was scored incorrectly with SS?

4. Who has the best spin in the world? Who has the best jumps (and you can break that down and go technique and consistency if you want)?, Who has the best footwork? Who has the best program (because it's "definitely not" Joubert. He was overscored. period). Realistically, you're gonna come up with two or three names for each, and maybe one or two skaters will have more than one slot. But if you think Chan's just average in the top six, then we'll have to agree to disagree, again.
 

FlattFan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
Reading what Wally said - and others - a quad right now does not automatically mean a skater wins. Not to bring up Goebel again - but if one quad beats no quads - then you lose me in your logic coz it easily follows that 4 quads beat 3 quads.

OK- that is not what you are saying. But what are you saying? That one quad is enough to beat superior TR, CH, IN, spins and steps?

Did I say one quad is enough to beat superior TR, CH, IN, spins and steps?
doing quad should relieve TR a bit. So TR score should factor into a program with quad. Say you do 5 transitions + quad should get you the same score as doing 7 transitions + no quad.
Joubert interpretation to his music, performance and executation are also better.

One quad without anything else is not enough. one quad with everything Joubert did should put him ahead of Patrick Chan by a comfortable margin. That's what I meant to say.
 

Bennett

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 20, 2007
I recall myself not a great fan of Joubert's skating and discounted his other elements than jumps before. But I think that he has improved a lot in his other elements such as spins and steps, transitions, choreos, interpretation, and costuming. This program was more memorable for me than Chan's, Abott's, Koz's, and Oda's SPs, even though I generally tend to prefer classical skating.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
OMG. 4.3 was the difference between the 4T-3T and 3F-3T combo. I wasn't talking about the base value for the quad. Sometimes reading required context. Sadly you didn't understand. Which one didn't actually say yes? Please give a name because I watched the interviews and all said yes.

I watched too - and Johnyy being Johnny he sort of flip-flopped. I believe he initially said Brian should have won the SP. Then Johnny being Johnny (remember he is not a judge and hates CoP) he went back and said Dai won. The guy is such a flea brain I certainly would never feel comfortable using his opinion to back up an argument. :)

BTW - I hope Rachael has fixed up the jump problems she had in Vancouver (yea - they had bad air position, were all borderline ur and had some scratchy landings).

I have a hunch this is the last we will see of Rachael - atleast as a serious contender - so I wish her all the best. Maybe she will skate her way to bronze - or even Silver if Mao falls down.
Since Mirai is the better skater and will be around for the next few years I do hope Rachael does her best. She is NOT my favorite skater but I certainly think she is a nice girl. It would be kinda sweet if she ended her competitive career with a World medal.
 

silverlake22

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
I watched too - and Johnyy being Johnny he sort of flip-flopped. I believe he initially said Brian should have won the SP. Then Johnny being Johnny (remember he is not a judge and hates CoP) he went back and said Dai won. The guy is such a flea brain I certainly would never feel comfortable using his opinion to back up an argument. :)

BTW - I hope Rachael has fixed up the jump problems she had in Vancouver (yea - they had bad air position, were all borderline ur and had some scratchy landings).

I have a hunch this is the last we will see of Rachael - atleast as a serious contender - so I wish her all the best. Maybe she will skate her way to bronze - or even Silver if Mao falls down.
Since Mirai is the better skater and will be around for the next few years I do hope Rachael does her best. She is NOT my favorite skater but I certainly think she is a nice girl. It would be kinda sweet if she ended her competitive career with a World medal.

I agree, she's def a good skater and a medal isn't out of the question.
 
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