Ladies - LP | Page 71 | Golden Skate

Ladies - LP

brianjyw

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 16, 2010
I am wondering that because Mao's PCS dropped like 5 points from the Olympics, and several people including me thinks she performed it better at Worlds.

Frirst, sorry about responding again to the same message. I missed this part previousely.

I believe that is a valid question. But as you know PCS scores were inflated all across the board at the Olympics. So I think most of the drop (4.56 points) in Mao's PCS score is just a deflation. Now, Yuna's PCS score was also dropped by 6.72 points from 71.76 to 65.07.

So I don't think it is such a big problem when everyone is deflated at the worlds.
 

brianjyw

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 16, 2010
IMAO. Of course I know what happened in 2005 GPF. (I'm her fan after all). Yes, sometimes upsets do happen but it's not that common. All I am saying is that I think the current system is not fairer than the older system. You do remember upsets also happened under the older system. I mean Sarah Hughes? Also Oksana Baiul rise from a lesser-known to a teen phenom was pretty quick, so it also happened before. Well, I disagree. Just because they are judges and just because those are the rules doesn't mean they are fair. For every system, there will be supporters and opponents. And I just happen to be on the other side from you. :biggrin:

Fair enough! :biggrin:

I just can't stand when people say something is unfair while they apply their logic ambiguously with double standard.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Brianjyw, here is a good example of how how being just a little off-kilter technically can prevent the choregraphy and interpretation from taking off.

This is Michelle Kwan's "Song of the Black Swan," as mentioned by RTureck above. First, her performance at Skate Canada earlier in the year. Nothing is really wrong with the performance, but it just doesn't sing. She slighly double-footed the loop, did only a triple-double instead of a triple-triple, not a clear outside edge on the Lutz como, she teetered and tottered a little in a transitional move, etc. Then, as Peggy Fleming remarks referring to a similar performance at Skate America, she had to abondon her choreography to throw in an extra triple at the end to make up for the lost content.

All of this made the music seem dreary and the performance kind of blah.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4m9B59_IWoA

She did, however, get 5.7s to 5.9s for the second mark -- no doubt in part because, well, she IS Michelle Kwan, after all. Plus, look how pretty she looks. :laugh:

Now here is her performance of the same program in the Worlds qualifying round (sorry, the quality of the video is not as good.) At the very beginning of the tape you can hear the commentators refer to the fact that one of Michelle's skates is higher than the other. One of her blades broke off in warm-ups, and her Dad had to repair it as best he could with a huge 8 inch nail.

In this performance the security of her jump technique (she hit her triple-triple for one thing) carried over into all the transitions and moves in the field -- her Charlotte, spiral sequence, spins in both directions, and everytihing else. This allowed her to convey the feeling of serenty-overlying-tension that the music inspired. Michelle's on the ice, God's in his heaven, and all's right with the world! 6.0. :yes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjRn9pjbOCc
 
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Daniel5555

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 27, 2009
rtureck
Daniel, you were the one who started this "stupid " comparing, and put in 4CC which is not an entirely world wide comp into the equation.
Por favor, that was addressed to janetfan and his ridiculous statement that in terms of achievements both Mao and Yuna combined don't come close to Michelle. He started it, not me.

Mathman
In this performance the security of her jump technique (she hit her triple-triple for one thing) carried over into all the transitions and moves in the field -- her Charlotte, spiral sequence, spins in both directions, and everytihing else. This allowed her to convey the feeling of serenty-overlying-tension that the music inspired. Michelle's on the ice, God's in his heaven, and all's right with the world! 6.0.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjRn9pjbOCc
What makes me sad is that we have to watch performances like this in such horrible quality. They should put this on Blu Ray discs, because it's awesome.
 

PROKOFIEV

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 1, 2009
Brianjyw, here is a good example of how how being just a little off-kilter technically can prevent the choregraphy and interpretation from taking off.

This is Michelle Kwan's "Song of the Black Swan," as mentioned by RTureck above. First, her performance at Skate Canada earlier in the year. Nothing is really wrong with the performance, but it just doesn't sing. She slighly double-footed the loop, did only a triple-double instead of a triple-triple, not a clear outside edge on the Lutz como, she teetered and tottered a little in a transitional move, etc. Then, as Peggy Fleming remarks referring to a similar performance at Skate America, she had to abondon her choreography to throw in an extra triple at the end to make up for the lost content.

All of this made the music seem dreary and the performance kind of blah.









\

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4m9B59_IWoA

She did, however, get 5.7s to 5.9s for the second mark -- no doubt in part because, well, she IS Michelle Kwan, after all. Plus, look how pretty she looks. :laugh:

Now here is her performance of the same program in the Worlds qualifying round (sorry, the quality of the video is not as good.) At the very beginning of the tape you can hear the commentators refer to the fact that one of Michelle's skates is higher than the other. One of her blades broke off in warm-ups, and her Dad had to repair it as best he could with a huge 8 inch nail.

In this performance the security of her jump technique (she hit her triple-triple for one thing) carried over into all the transitions and moves in the field -- her Charlotte, spiral sequence, spins in both directions, and everytihing else. This allowed her to convey the feeling of serenty-overlying-tension that the music inspired. Michelle's on the ice, God's in his heaven, and all's right with the world! 6.0. :yes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjRn9pjbOCc

Mathman, thank you so much for this wonderful comparison. I always enjoy your posts because you are always logical, of course because youare MATH man. What a differences in those two programs. It is a great example. Even Michelle's very rare "blah" program is totally different from Yuna's "blah" program at the Worlds. No matter how much she make mistakes, She never gives up until she finishes. I am sure she was always trained to compete even though her motivation was very low. I can not imagine she whould say "i did not want to comete at this competition and I did not practice for a while and so on." It shows her respect to skating, her fans and her competitiors. I really get offended when someone trys to compare Yuna with Michelle. Michelle is in a totally different fields in terms of her achievement, her respect to the sports , fans and fellow skaters. I do not think she ever made any excuses for her mistakes. She certainly never blamed someone obstructing her practice during her loooong skating carrier. When I look at these programs, I miss her more than ever. I used to look forward to Michelle's new programs, music costumes every season and Sasha's. Nowadays, there is not any skaters that exctite me to look forward to. (Well, Daisuke and Mirai is getting on my list noawadys) Sorry, I went off the topic.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
Asada sisters always remind me of Hina dolls, classy Japanese beauty.
http://userdisk.webry.biglobe.ne.jp/003/937/60/N000/000/000/123257740634016413312.jpg

I love this picture, and I see what you mean. Mao does have that timeless look to her features. I'm not so familiar with Mai's face, but I'll take your word for it.

One of the nice things I noticed in the montage of photos someone else supplied was that Mao had a different expression in every picture. That's very uncommon: most people look pretty much the same in every photo. Mao so effectively conveys everything she thinks and feels.

And then Mathman went and mentioned one of my favorite programs ever, Michelle's Song of the Black Swan, especially in the Worlds Qualifying. The combination of her assured technique and musicality, the intricate yet silken choreography, and the gorgeous music makes me return to that video again and again. I just recently discovered the origin of the first section of music in that program: it turns out to be by Villa-Lobos, and it's actually called "The Song of the Black Swan." Most of the rest of the music comes from a Dvorak trio known as the Dumky Trio, so I had assumed that the beginning was by Dvorak also. Gee, it only took me nine years to figure things out....but that is one glorious skating program, and there aren't many that can equal it in my estimation.
 
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janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
rtureck

Por favor, that was addressed to janetfan and his ridiculous statement that in terms of achievements both Mao and Yuna combined don't come close to Michelle. He started it, not me.

.

Yes, but I let it go two days ago. Why can't you? :)

And we are all entitled to our opinions. I think major titles do have an impact on a skater's legacy. So does their body of work.

Michelle left a legacy few skaters will match. You are free to disagree.
 

brianjyw

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 16, 2010
Brianjyw, here is a good example of how how being just a little off-kilter technically can prevent the choregraphy and interpretation from taking off.

This is Michelle Kwan's "Song of the Black Swan," as mentioned by RTureck above. First, her performance at Skate Canada earlier in the year. Nothing is really wrong with the performance, but it just doesn't sing. She slighly double-footed the loop, did only a triple-double instead of a triple-triple, not a clear outside edge on the Lutz como, she teetered and tottered a little in a transitional move, etc. Then, as Peggy Fleming remarks referring to a similar performance at Skate America, she had to abondon her choreography to throw in an extra triple at the end to make up for the lost content.

All of this made the music seem dreary and the performance kind of blah.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4m9B59_IWoA

She did, however, get 5.7s to 5.9s for the second mark -- no doubt in part because, well, she IS Michelle Kwan, after all. Plus, look how pretty she looks. :laugh:

Now here is her performance of the same program in the Worlds qualifying round (sorry, the quality of the video is not as good.) At the very beginning of the tape you can hear the commentators refer to the fact that one of Michelle's skates is higher than the other. One of her blades broke off in warm-ups, and her Dad had to repair it as best he could with a huge 8 inch nail.

In this performance the security of her jump technique (she hit her triple-triple for one thing) carried over into all the transitions and moves in the field -- her Charlotte, spiral sequence, spins in both directions, and everytihing else. This allowed her to convey the feeling of serenty-overlying-tension that the music inspired. Michelle's on the ice, God's in his heaven, and all's right with the world! 6.0. :yes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjRn9pjbOCc


Thank you for the post. I could see the difference. I noticed she improved upon a lot of things and added fine details to her program since the first competition for the program. I believe the first clip is done at the first competion of the season and the second one almost at the end of the season. No wonder she is a legend. A legend never fails to improve upon oneself.

I see Mao's program in the first clip and Yuna's in the second clip. :biggrin:
 

miki88

Medalist
Joined
Dec 28, 2009
Thank you for the post. I could see the difference. I noticed she improved upon a lot of things and added fine details to her program since the first competition for the program. I believe the first clip is done at the first competion of the season and the second one almost at the end of the season. No wonder she is a legend. A legend never fails to improve upon oneself.

I see Mao's program in the first clip and Yuna's in the second clip. :biggrin:

Now I understand why you disagree with me so much~~~:rolleye:
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
It is easy to see an example of this watching Mirai this season. Her GP LP's were not skated that well - but by the time the Olympics rolled around she had a much stronger presentation.
Her pcs at the Olympics were much better than earlier in the season because she was skating her LP so much better.
 

seniorita

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
I love the fact that we can even talk about recipes of how to make vanilla cookies and Michelle always end up the in the discussion! I think she is for a reason the Kween!:rock:

I had not seen the SC swan ever in my life! Thanx for vid. But I remember her in Words, these was the best dreamy Worlds ever!:love:
 

Daniel5555

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 27, 2009
I guess after 10000 years from now the Ultimate skating championship will be held under CoP Seven Service Pack 2 with participants like Midori Ito, Kristi, Chen Lu, Irina Slutskaya, Sasha Cohen, Michelle Kwan, Yuna Kim, Mao Asada, etc. obviously all trained according to the most recent rules and technical requirements and having the same age. Then you will see who's better! I'll see what you say after it!
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
I guess after 10000 years from now the Ultimate skating championship will be held under CoP Seven Service Pack 2 with participants like Midori Ito, Kristi, Chen Lu, Irina Slutskaya, Sasha Cohen, Michelle Kwan, Yuna Kim, Mao Asada, etc. obviously all trained according to the most recent rules and technical requirements and having the same age. Then you will see who's better! I'll see what you say after it!

Fair enough - but all of these girls still try to skate like Janet Lynn. They study her tapes and try to express themselves the way she did. Well, maybe not Irina ;)

So before they have this "ultimate skating championship" I will already pick Janet. :love:
Besides - why settle for an imitation when you can have the original :)
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
And then Mathman went and mentioned one of my favorite programs ever, Michelle's Song of the Black Swan, especially in the Worlds Qualifying. The combination of her assured technique and musicality, the intricate yet silken choreography, and the gorgeous music makes me return to that video again and again. I just recently discovered the origin of the first section of music in that program: it turns out to be by Villa-Lobos, and it's actually called "The Song of the Black Swan."


Here is the actual recording, by cellist Julian Lloyd Weber (younger brother of composer Andrew Lloyd Weber) and pianist John Lenehan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwB4l9DcIWI

Lori Nichol was a genius at finding off-the-beaten track gems like this. Here is an artical describing everything that went into Michelle's 1996-97 program, "Taj Mahal," featuring music by little-known Azerbajian composer Fikrat Amirov.

http://www.azer.com/aiweb/categories/magazine/44_folder/44_articles/44_michellekwan.html

Finally after much searching, Nichol found a quote describing the memorial (the Taj Mahal building itself):

"Both inside and out, the marble reflects the light and mood of the changing day. Dazzling at noon. Warm and glowing at dusk. Soft and ethereal in the moonlight like the varying moods of a beautiful woman."

Here's Michelle (age 16) at 1997 Worlds. I guess the forward-to-backward change-edge spirial on one foot was the "glowing at dusk" part. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-oqwopZta8&feature=related
 
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Bennett

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 20, 2007
Yeah I know but you still get to see the person who is on your ignore list in other posters quotes.

I know. But it still makes a difference compared to seeing it first-hand. You can choose not to read those who repeatedly go back-to-back quoting each other's offensive comments. Also the forum guidelines recommend reporting a post that you believe really violates forum guidelines rather than responding to it yourself; note in mind that mods don't always agree with you. When I do respond, it's usually only after having done all these and still believe there's something really racist etc in the post.
 
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seniorita

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
how many talents has the Lloyd Webber family? I didnt know about him!

note in mind that mods don't always agree with you.

yes this and also there is a legend which says that you cannot put mods in ignore list even if you try ten times:boohoo:

:p:p:p
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Moderator's note:

Trolling = Posting gratuitous and inflammatory taunts with no other purpose than to try to make other Golden Skate members mad.

Bashing = Berating a skater with incessant, repetitious and pernicious johnny-one-note attacks.

Posters who do this will be banned permanently.
 
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Joined
Jun 21, 2003
you wrote this for me??? :p

Well, you are still here, so I guess it wasn't for you. :rofl:

To you I write: According to the Golden Skate guidelines, any and all gushing over favorite skaters is very much encouraged! :yes:

and what is johnny-one-note attacks?

"Johnny-One-Note" is a fictitious singer (or trumpet player in some versions) who could sing only one note. But he sang it so loudly and could hold it so long that he drowned out all the rest of the band. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEpRBI-VxLc

So the reference is to a poster who has no other interest in figure skating than to bash the same skater over and over. :disagree:
 
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Joined
Aug 16, 2009
Mathman, thanks so much for the extra music information about the Villa-Lobos! I'm so excited to have that piece available to listen to.

And, as an extra bonus, the Taj Mahal article and Michelle's skate! I remember reading that it was an Azerbaijani composer. I've been impressed with Lori Nichol since I detected a small smidgeon of Ippolitov-Ivanov's Caucasian Sketches embedded in the Salome program. Then in 1998, when Nichol crafted the Rachmaninoff short program for Michelle, she used not only material from the piano concerto but, if memory serves, part of the lesser-known (and sublime) cello sonata. These things matter to music dorks such as myself! When Michelle left Carroll, one of my great regrets was that she also left Lori Nichol. Sure enough, Michelle skated mostly to more commonly used music thereafter. Not that it was bad music, but it was frequently used music: Tosca, Scheherezade, more standard cuts of Rachmaninoff, and so on. (Aranjuez was a notable and welcome exception.)

It's funny that after all these years, when I hear the Dvorak trio I think of Michelle skating to it. Although I love chamber music for itself, her program was so memorable that it will forever be part of my thoughts about the piece.
 
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