Ladies - LP

janetfan · Mar 28, 2010

bekalc said:
Well Tara didn't take a well known and iconic piece of music like Carmen, and played her like she was a peppy happy person just going to a ball! While Mirai's Carmen is cute, interperting the music that way does make her look a little more imature. In contrast Tara took a pretty piece of music and skated to it with excitement and joy, which actually fit the music quite well.

I should go back and look - but Tara was younger in Nagano than Mirai and my recollection was that her performance was also less mature looking. She skated like what she was - an upbeat, excited teenager. A great performance - and you are entitled to your opinion but Mirai was pretty spectacular in Vancouver and many people in the skating world were very impressed with her "Carmen" LP.

Button said it was the greatest Lady's Olympic performance never to win a medal and I think he made a good point.

Tonichelle · Mar 28, 2010

Bennett said:
I feel that every ladies thread eventually evolves into a MK thread. Not that it's bad though.

I was so tempted to bring her into a different thread the other day, only to realize that I was too late...

but I would have been doing it sarcastically, without reverence for the chosen one.

bekalc · Mar 28, 2010

janetfan said:
I should go back and look - but Tara was younger in Nagano than Mirai and my recollection was that her performance was also less mature looking. She skated like what she was - an upbeat, excited teenager. A great performance - and you are entitled to your opinion but Mirai was pretty spectacular in Vancouver and many people in the skating world were very impressed with her "Carmen" LP.

Button said it was the greatest Lady's Olympic performance never to win a medal and I think he made a good point.

Who said I wasn't impressed with Mirai's performance? She's a very good performer, who is quite stunning to watch? But you can be impressed with someone's performance, and not be impressed with their ability to interpert music-just yet.

Mirai is a stunning skater to watch and is quite cute. But Mirai essentially skates every program the same way. Cutsy! Look at me! She does this no matter what the music is. So no I don't think Mirai is more mature than Tara, and by choosing that music and skating to it that way, I don't think Mirai looked more mature than Tara. But seriously though thats only on aspect of the performance and I do think Mirai is quite stunning. It would just be nice to see her maybe move beyond: cutsy.

janetfan · Mar 28, 2010

bekalc said:
Who said I wasn't impressed with Mirai's performance? She's a very good performer, who is quite stunning to watch? But you can be impressed with someone's performance, and not be impressed with their ability to interpert music-just yet.

Mirai is a stunning skater to watch and is quite cute. But Mirai essentially skates every program the same way. Cutsy! Look at me! She does this no matter what the music is. So no I don't think Mirai is more mature than Tara, and by choosing that music and skating to it that way, I don't think Mirai looked more mature than Tara. But seriously though thats only on aspect of the performance and I do think Mirai is quite stunning. It would just be nice to see her maybe move beyond: cutsy.

Interesting and I agree - and I think Carroll wants that. But I have also heard Lori talk about showcasing Mirai's smiley personality.

Thinking of other skaters - say Evan. Does he ever change much from program to program?

But wait - he is not the only one is he? What of Joubert? He is what - 25? And still showing us the exact same personna in every program. Even Plushy - did he change much from Torino to Vancouver? I don't think so.

Mao changed this season - but how - from having little personality to becoming a demon? And for most of the season it didn't work and even looked contrived at times.

This year Johnny went to Wilson and talked about a whole new Johnny. Sorry, but I saw the exact same Johnny as before.

I could go on - but I think the truth is many skaters sort of find a performing niche and pretty much stick with it for most of their career. Irina skated about the same - like a perky tomboy from the time she was 13 until she was 20 or so. Artistic maturuty was very slow in developing in Irina despite her technical prowess but eventually she did change.

Maybe Yuna has shown different looks from season to season - something which I think Wilson worked very hard on with her.
But do most skaters really change that much - their on ice personalities?

brianjyw · Mar 28, 2010

Mathman said:
In reading the criteria for the program components Performance/Execution, Interpretation, and Choreography/Composition, I think a satisfactory two-word summary might be the "artistic maturity" of the performance. This is not necessarily the same as the chronological age of the performer, of course.

In my opinion Mao skated better than Mirai at the Olympics, with respect to the criteria for component scores.

In my opinion Mao skated better than Yu-na at Worlds, with respect to these criteria.

Others may disagree with one or the other or both of these opinions, of course.

I am sorry if I gave you the impression of applying criteria differently for different skaters. My intention was quite the contrary. If you really want to know what I think about the proper way in which mistakes on elements (and conversely, well-done elements within the context of the choreography) ought to affect the program component scores, you can read post # 1228.

This is preferable to "assuming" you know what people think and calling them names.

(PS. But never mind all that. I go ballistic when people pick on Michelle, so I don't get mad when others have their favorites, too. It's all good. Peace, bro. (or sis.) )

No apology necessary. I should also apologize as well. I might have been carried away. And I didn't know that stating someone might be hypocritical based on their arguments is name calling. I will be really careful about that going forward. Please forgive me if that offended you.

I totally understand that others have their rights to express their opinion. I was just trying to point out that one shouldn't apply their logic ambivalently.

Like you said, peace bro...

janetfan · Mar 28, 2010

Tonichelle said:
I was so tempted to bring her into a different thread the other day, only to realize that I was too late...

but I would have been doing it sarcastically, without reverence for the chosen one.

Isn't there a math equation that can be applied to GS threads and the eventual appearnance of the Kween into the topic. Sure there are variables - for instance the Kween will always appear in a Yuna vs Mao war....but not immediately. In a Sasha topic the Kween will always appear much sooner. There are variables to consider but I bet if enough research was done an equation could be applied

m/y =k2 ........yikes - some help please

silverlake22 · Mar 28, 2010

I think Mirai could pull off a sexy program next year if that's what Frank and Lori want, she's hot, she has those intense eyes, she could do it. But I don't think doing a sensual program is appropriate for a 15 year old, 16 maybe but Mirai wasn't that confident this season, but now I think she is ready. And she has changed her style a bit - in 06-07 and 07-08 she had jazzy SPs and baby ballerina LPs, then in 08-09 her programs were upbeat and cutesy, and this year her SP was elegant and her LP was sassy. Idk, I think Mirai might surprise us next year and do something really mature.

R.D. · Mar 28, 2010

She just needs to get back with it, that's all.

bekalc · Mar 29, 2010

Thinking of other skaters - say Evan. Does he ever change much from program to program?

But wait - he is not the only one is he? What of Joubert? He is what - 25? And still showing us the exact same personna in every program. Even Plushy - did he change much from Torino to Vancouver? I don't think so.

But they aren't skating to music that really should have a different interpertation than the ones they are giving it. And when Joubert is skating to one of his many Matrixes he actually doesn't perform the same way as when he does Rise. (On Rise he's much more smiley). And cutsey kind of comes accross as immature-because its just that cutsey.

Virtue/Moir are actually some though who get a bit criticized for going with the same Free Dance almost all the time (Star Crossed Lovers) I also know there are some who are upset about their interpertation of Mahler because well that music isn't exactly suppose to be happy music. Its actually suppose to be about longing onto death. But the music isn't as well known as Carmen.

Artistry · Mar 29, 2010

yunasashafan said:
She definitely has. She's still not at the level Yuna is, but I believe we'll see a much improved Mao next season. I think she set a challenge to herself with the dark music and the 3As and did not want to back down (some might see this as stubborness, but whatever.. she succeeded). I don't think her interpretation of Bells is as good as what someone like Yuna would be able to do, but she's come a long way since last year.

And one more comment about PCs. I think whether we like to admit or not, reputation does factor into them. Judges see what they want to see, whether they are concious of this bias or not. And it's not only Yuna who might be affected by that. Just look at Mao's PCs from TEB and Cup of Russia .. I think anytime a skater is perceived to be great, they get a boost in their PCs. The boost, however, is no more than a couple of points. And this is not new. Much more atrocious PC inflation/undermarking happened under 6.0 to much bigger effect. At least in COP, the placement is usually right.

OK, now I am really out before I get sucked in

You post your opinions as if they were the truth. My views are quite opposite. I think that PCS under 6.0 (second mark) was, on average, more accurate, and the current erratic COP placement is often NOT right. Moreover, the 'reputation' of a skater should not influence a particular performance. In other arts, such as with music competitions, for instance - a particular execution on a given day is evaluated to determine a winner.
In terms of artistry, I don't think Yuna is better at all. She rarely moves me, and talking about what she "would" do with Bells is irrelevant. She didn't use this music, and your assumptions that she would interpret it better have no basis. Then again, your name here says it all. Please consider in the future the possibility of people looking at reality differently from you, and thus seeing a vastly different truth.

yunasashafan · Mar 29, 2010

Artistry said:
You post your opinions as if they were the truth. My views are quite opposite. I think that PCS under 6.0 (second mark) was, on average, more accurate, and the current erratic COP placement is often NOT right. Moreover, the 'reputation' of a skater should not influence a particular performance. In other arts, such as with music competitions, for instance - a particular execution on a given day is evaluated to determine a winner.
In terms of artistry, I don't think Yuna is better at all. She rarely moves me, and talking about what she "would" do with Bells is irrelevant. She didn't use this music, and your assumptions that she would interpret it better have no basis. Then again, your name here says it all. Please consider in the future the possibility of people looking at reality differently from you, and thus seeing a vastly different truth.

You're entiltled to your opinion and favourites and I am entitled to mine. Yuna does not touch you, but she does touch me. Unlike you, however, being a fan of Yuna does not blind me to the extend where it prevents me from appreciating the qualities of Mao, who touches me in her own way. You can look for all my posts here and I dare you to find one in which I mentioned Mao and wasn't extremely complimentary of her abilties. I am not stopping you from looking at "reality" and stating your opinion about it. More importantly, I never judged anyone based on their username.

I did say that I base my opinion of Yuna's interpretive skills on the fact that she was successful in interpreting different types of music better than Mao. Based on that I said that I thought she would do a better job with bells because we've seen her interpret dramatic music successfully. I did say that Mao's performance at worlds was brilliant and that I am extremely happy for her.

As far as PCs, the fact that I thought that PC inflation is part of human nature does not mean that I agree with it. I was just pointing out that until recently, Mao was benefitting from the same inflation as Yuna, until after a few bad performances at the beginning of this season. After those, judges stopped expecting the great Mao, and PCs fell accordingly. Again, I am just stating my opinion, you can agree with it or not. No need for personal attacks.

ETA: besides, aren't transitions and choreography part of PCs? Mao herself stated that she took out a lot of the transitions and choreography out of the program to make the entry to her jumps easier. How's that for building a pre-conceived notion in the minds of the judges? Especially compared to Yuna whose program is packed full with them?

Bennett · Mar 29, 2010

yunasashafan said:
You're entiltled to your opinion and favourites and I am entitled to mine. Yuna does not touch you, but she does touch me. Unlike you, however, being a fan of Yuna does not blind me to the extend where it prevents me from appreciating the qualities of Mao, who touches me in her own way. You can look for all my posts here and I dare you to find one in which I mentioned Mao and wasn't extremely complimentary of her abilties. More importantly, I never judged anyone based on their username.

I did say that I base my opinion of Yuna's interpretive skills on the fact that she was successful in interpreting different types of music better than Mao. Based on that I said that I thought she would do a better job with bells because we've seen her interpret dramatic music successfully. I did say that Mao's performance at worlds was brilliant and that I am extremely happy for her.

As far as PCs, the fact that I thought that PC inflation is part of human nature does not mean that I agree with it. I was just pointing out that until recently, Mao was benefitting from the same inflation as Yuna, until after a few bad performances at the beginning of this season. After those, judges stopped expecting the great Mao, and PCs fell accordingly. Again, I am just stating my opinion, you can agree with it or not. No need for personal attacks.

Some may misunderstand based on your username as if you might be going to discuss only those two skaters in the forums, but I've known that you don't do that.

yunasashafan · Mar 29, 2010

Bennett said:
Some may misunderstand based on your username as if you might be going to discuss only those two skaters in the forums, but I've known that you don't do that.

Thanks Bennett, I appreciate it

I wish I could change my username to yunamaojoanniemiraiakikofan and watch the fireworks

hikki · Mar 29, 2010

nddandy said:
Mao's program was dull, wierd and depressing, and she is no "Yagudin' she is more suitable with light and pleasant programs. Her artistry lacks quite a bit to perform heavy musics like Bells of Moscow...She will do much better next season with the program that will suit her brightness and lightness on the ice. I am expecting her to do better next year!

Does your lack of adjectives reflect your lack of exposure to music? Because I think comments like that cheapen your points that might otherwise be solid. I agree that Mao's naturally more suited to light and lyrical pieces, but I personally thought she finally did Rachmaninoff's Prelude in C sharp minor justice at worlds. I was one of the people who dissed her choice of music thoroughout the season, but boy I respect this girl so much more now with her determined and passionate delivery of the performance.

As for Yuna's mistakes and the judges score, I agree that there's much more to skating than jumps. But I, and other people seem to agree, felt that she wasn't as committed to the performance as she was say at TEB (and there she had a mistake too), which should've reflected on PE at the very least. But it didn't seem to.

As for Mao winning 2008 Worlds, may I mention 1) after falling on 3axel, she did 3flip/3loop, 3lutz, 3loop, 3sal, 3flip/3toe and 2axel (sigh how much better her jumpnig contents were back then) and everything after the 3axel was performed the best she had ever done that season. *One of her 3/3s was URed I think.; and 2) Yuna was 1st in the freeskate. I thought it should've been Mao-Yuna-Yukari but anyway!

I like Yuna's use of every part of her body, includng her neck, back the upper body. They're all connected.

I think Mao is better at making prettier positions with pointed toes and stretched arms (e.g. her spiral). I don't think her body movements are as smoothly connected as Yuna's.

Summing up, I don't think one is far better than the other. Which is why I love their rivary!

brianjyw · Mar 29, 2010

yunasashafan said:
As far as PCs, the fact that I thought that PC inflation is part of human nature does not mean that I agree with it. I was just pointing out that until recently, Mao was benefitting from the same inflation as Yuna, until after a few bad performances at the beginning of this season. After those, judges stopped expecting the great Mao, and PCs fell accordingly. Again, I am just stating my opinion, you can agree with it or not. No need for personal attacks.

ITA :thumbsup:

brianjyw · Mar 29, 2010

hikki said:
I like Yuna's use of every part of her body, includng her neck, back the upper body. They're all connected.

I think Mao is better at making prettier positions with pointed toes and stretched arms (e.g. her spiral). I don't think her body movements are as smoothly connected as Yuna's.

ITA! :thumbsup: Very thoughtful assessments and constructive criticism.

Summing up, I don't think one is far better than the other. Which is why I love their rivary!

IMHO, Yuna is far better than Mao as of now (this season) (Mao was far better than Yuna in Jr. seasons) because the positive attributes you mentioned for Yuna clearly outweigh the positive attributes you brought up for Mao. At least, judges agree with me and that is why her GOE and PCS are really hard to beat.

All of us can just go on arguing who is a better skater but at the end of the day, we all have to rely on judges to help sort it out because they are the ones better trained to evaluate skaters as much objectively as possible. We may not like the current judging system but still I think it is much more reliable and better than our own opinions. This is just my opinion so others may disagree.

Ren · Mar 29, 2010

yunasashafan said:
By the way, I see this as some redemption for Mao and all the effort she's put to get out of her slump. And it is very special that it happened in Torino, the site of the last Olympics for which she was a favorite but could not participate :agree:

:agree:

Ren · Mar 29, 2010

Mathman said:
Tara gave a great performance, and she deserved... she deser... she... (no, no, I can;t say it! )

Ren · Mar 29, 2010

yunasashafan said:
Thanks Bennett, I appreciate it I wish I could change my username to yunamaojoanniemiraiakikofan and watch the fireworks

What a mouthful.

yunasashafan · Mar 29, 2010

Ren said:
What a mouthful.

Yep! and I even forgot laura and sasha! I would add the kween but she's not competing (sasha is very unlikely too) :rolleye:

Ladies - LP

janetfan

Match Penalty

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll

bekalc

janetfan

Match Penalty

brianjyw

janetfan

Match Penalty

silverlake22

R.D.

bekalc

Artistry

yunasashafan

Bennett

yunasashafan

hikki

brianjyw

brianjyw

Ren

Ren

Ren

yunasashafan

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