Which skaters “changed the course of figure skating?”

Mathman · Apr 15, 2010

brianjyw said:
IMHO, the two statements in bold are contradictive. Who in their right mind would try to innovate when they get nothing for trying and falling?

Lots of people. No guts no glory.

"The credit belongs to the (one)...who, at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." (Teddy "Big Stick" Roosevelt)

janetfan · Apr 15, 2010

ImaginaryPogue said:
No, but she did beat her at Euros 2010, and was skating on home ice. Laura Lepisto has medaled at three Euros (with the worst European field on record), two GP events and one worlds. She beat Mao at a terrible event for her.

Lets also mention that Rochette didn't compete, and she's never lost to Lepisto.

I'll echo gkelly, though.

I will also echo gkelly (always a wise move

) but my statement about skating in an era when very few triples are needed to make a podium still stands. Think of the GPF this season.

I happen to like Laura's skating and have no problem with her winning the bronze.
I also like that the IJS looks for more than just how many clean triples or quads a skater lands in a program.

dlgpffps · Apr 15, 2010

Bijoux said:
Yu-na doing three of the same jump and a double at that, three double axels is at least one too many. I guess there will be many who say her double axels were better, prettier than Mao doing her historic 3 3a performance. I'm getting used to it now.

In her LP, Yu-na has three 2As and six triples, one in triple-triple combination. Of the basic triples, she doesn't have the 3Lo, and she also lacks the 3A. Mao has six triples, including two triple axels, and none in triple-triple combination. She does the 2Lo three times and a single 3T. She doesn't have a 3Lz or 3S. If you want to critcize one skater for not having all triples and doing three double jumps, be fair and apply the same standard to all skaters, even your favorite. 3As don't negate the absence of two essential triples, although they are exceptional accomplishments in themselves.

As for Miki's quad and Mao's 3As changing the course of figure skating, I don't see it happening when the system rewards quality over quantity, and consistency plays into PCS. Strict UR calls also make skaters doubt themselves. Miki's quad would not have even been ratified in CoP and she has landed it only once, definitely not enough to make a ripple. It may have put her in the record books, but I don't see any other lady attempting it in competition when they struggle to rotate even single triples, let alone triple triples or a quad. Mao is the only current lady to put the 3A in her program, so it's not necessary to keep competitive, and as long as Yu-na beats her with huge margins, I don't see it happening just yet. Mao's influence is still in question. Her career is projected to be long, and the possibilities are numerous. If, for example, Mirai with six triple programs with three 2As, no triple triple and no 3S, beats Mao, I see no reason for skaters risking to master such a difficult jump. If Mao were to dominate the sport, more skaters would probably flock towards the 3A to stand a chance. If this were to establish the 3A as a necessity to remain competitive among the top-tier ladies, Mao could be considered to have "changed the course of figure skating." It's too early to know, though.

ITA with this:

gkelly said:
But I don't think any of these individuals "changed the course of figure skating" any more than each other or than Yuna Kim or, say, Shizuka Arakawa or Sasha Cohen or Irina Slutskaya. They're all part of the development of the sport into the IJS era, but I don't think any individual stands out as singlehandedly influential enough to change the course of the sport.

Of the recent skaters, that is, from the last two decades, I would include only Midori Ito, for reasons mentioned before. I'm not sure if I would include the Kwan.

ImaginaryPogue · Apr 15, 2010

janetfan said:
I will also echo gkelly (always a wise move ) but my statement about skating in an era when very few triples are needed to make a podium still stands. Think of the GPF this season.

I happen to like Laura's skating and have no problem with her winning the bronze.
I also like that the IJS looks for more than just how many clean triples or quads a skater lands in a program.

True. My point mainly is that if we have a well skated event, three triples won't cut it. GPF wasn't a well skated event. The Olympics was genuinely considered to be a well skated event. Of those that made the free skate, you'd have to go down to the 14th ranked skater (overall) who skated three or less triples in the long program (got credit for three or less). We had a podium that had a seven, six and four triple skater, and the four triple skater had two triple axels. We had a top ten that was entirely without falls. Name the last time an international event (ladies) had a top ten with no falls in either the short or the free.

But I don't take much issue with Lepisto's bronze. I like that jumps aren't everything (and I'll argue that it's possible that a realistic weighing of the jumps would come at the expense of a well balanced program, and that's not condusive to the sport's popularity one iota). I don't care for Ando's skating, think Kostner was overmarked, and frankly Phaneuf with a medal means the weight of expectations and I don't think she'd live up to it again.

prettykeys · Apr 15, 2010

gkelly said:
But I don't think any of these individuals "changed the course of figure skating" any more than each other or than Yuna Kim or, say, Shizuka Arakawa or Sasha Cohen or Irina Slutskaya. They're all part of the development of the sport into the IJS era, but I don't think any individual stands out as singlehandedly influential enough to change the course of the sport.

Actually, I tend to think of Sasha as having had a huge influence in the kinds of positions that are ubiquitous in ladies' skating today. I don't know if I'm attributing the trend to the right skater who started it all, but she popularized it the most, I think.

As for the "quality vs. quantity" debate regarding jumps, I think a missing dimension that CoP needs to address is diversity. Beyond a certain level of quality, I'd put the need to reward diversity of jumps second, and then quantity (i.e. I don't want to see repeated triples until someone has completed or incorporated all the main triples for the respective discipline. For ladies, that means the 5 different triples minus the 3A, unless someone like Mao wants the 3Axel to substitute for another triple, say, the 3Lutz.)

seniorita · Apr 15, 2010

Mathman said:
I am not sure when major figure skating championships started to be held indoors, but I have seen photos of skaters in the 30s and 40s with phonographs at the edge of (outdoor) rinks.

Ha, i caught you, you havent watched all the oldies :biggrin:

1920, 1932 and from 1960 olympics competitions are held indoors permanently. I m not sure for other competitions when exactly it became the norm.

Mathman said:
I believe that for a long time there was no actual rule about vocal music, but it was just a tradition to use instrumental music only. The first musical accompaniment was just the town band, hired to stand on the side of the lake and oom-pah away.

Mm, thank you for all the post , it was much more than i expected to learn, very interesting

Do you have a book to recommend for all the fs history?Or anything i could read? And I got a free bonus info concerning Uranos.

Merci!

janetfan · Apr 15, 2010

Here is a clip of Peggy Fleming winning the 1967 WC in Vienna - the last time it was skated outdoors.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sv5gR4SKk_M

"The 1967 competitions for men, ladies, pairs and ice dancing took place February 28th to March 4th, 1967 in Vienna, Austria on an open air ice rink."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967_World_Figure_Skating_Championships

Bijoux · Apr 15, 2010

dlgpffps said:
In her LP, Yu-na has three 2As and six triples, one in triple-triple combination. Of the basic triples, she doesn't have the 3Lo, and she also lacks the 3A. Mao has six triples, including two triple axels, and none in triple-triple combination. She does the 2Lo three times and a single 3T. She doesn't have a 3Lz or 3S. If you want to critcize one skater for not having all triples and doing three double jumps, be fair and apply the same standard to all skaters, even your favorite. 3As don't negate the absence of two essential triples, although they are exceptional accomplishments in themselves.

As for Miki's quad and Mao's 3As changing the course of figure skating, I don't see it happening when the system rewards quality over quantity, and consistency plays into PCS. Strict UR calls also make skaters doubt themselves. Miki's quad would not have even been ratified in CoP and she has landed it only once, definitely not enough to make a ripple. It may have put her in the record books, but I don't see any other lady attempting it in competition when they struggle to rotate even single triples, let alone triple triples or a quad. Mao is the only current lady to put the 3A in her program, so it's not necessary to keep competitive, and as long as Yu-na beats her with huge margins, I don't see it happening just yet. Mao's influence is still in question. Her career is projected to be long, and the possibilities are numerous. If, for example, Mirai with six triple programs with three 2As, no triple triple and no 3S, beats Mao, I see no reason for skaters risking to master such a difficult jump. If Mao were to dominate the sport, more skaters would probably flock towards the 3A to stand a chance. If this were to establish the 3A as a necessity to remain competitive among the top-tier ladies, Mao could be considered to have "changed the course of figure skating." It's too early to know, though.

ITA with this:

Of the recent skaters, that is, from the last two decades, I would include only Midori Ito, for reasons mentioned before. I'm not sure if I would include the Kwan.

Not really criticizing just one skater, just joking...all this seriousness about two little skaters. BTW Mao is far from my favorite skater....prefer Jo Ro for years for her elegance and style and love Mirai. If Mao goes to Sochi I will root for her unless there is a better American I like. I have to watch videos, I cannot remember what these kids do in each skate or read the list of jumps somewhere. My only real point was that I think that CoP should support knowing and trying all the triples in an Lp, not repeating jumps three times or tacking them on for points. The skaters are just racking up points and the overall progras suffer. Its not the skaters fault its the game they must play. I would only say that 5 women have landed 3a as its so hard. So Mao wanted to be Ito and make history with this phenomenal jump and thought she's maybe outscore Yuna.

I have to say I'm awed Mao did this but still don't agree with repeating jumps instead of doing at least one of each triple. Two 3as really belong in the men's LP. Great kudos to Mao but CoP in general is not yet refined and needs to be tweaked. The performances are suffering though its sad it takes all this to try and keep the judges honest. Doing the same jumps for each skater is a good idea. Levels the jumping comp and they can be compared on same jumps.

Hey,I wish they'd go back to school figures so we'd see better basics. Not a fan of CoP.

brianjyw · Apr 15, 2010

Mathman said:
Lots of people. No guts no glory.

"The credit belongs to the (one)...who, at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." (Teddy "Big Stick" Roosevelt)

Exactly! But some people think that under the current CoP, "skaters don't have the incentive to push."

ImaginaryPogue · Apr 16, 2010

brianjyw said:
Exactly! But some people think that under the current CoP, "skaters don't have the incentive to push."

Brian Joubert has pushed himself in general to improve his spins under COP. Patrick Chan has pushed himself to include some devastatingly hard transitions into his jumps. Skaters like Joannie Rochette and Rachel Flatt have pushed themselves to perfect their technique on the edge jumps (and overall) in order to garner the GOEs and avoid UR calls. Asada and Takahashi push themselves to include the hardest jumps because they can. This idea that COP doesn't provide and incentive to push relies on the idea that the only marker of technical brilliance is four revolutions in the air.

Kwanford Wife · Apr 16, 2010

ImaginaryPogue said:
Brian Joubert has pushed himself in general to improve his spins under COP. Patrick Chan has pushed himself to include some devastatingly hard transitions into his jumps. Skaters like Joannie Rochette and Rachel Flatt have pushed themselves to perfect their technique on the edge jumps (and overall) in order to garner the GOEs and avoid UR calls. Asada and Takahashi push themselves to include the hardest jumps because they can. This idea that COP doesn't provide and incentive to push relies on the idea that the only marker of technical brilliance is four revolutions in the air.

True. However, to be truly technically brillant at the elite level a skater should be able to do a complete set of triple jumps with proficient. This should be a given - not a skater by skater issue. If CoP gave a bonus point for a true seven triple program and a higher start value for the quad - I believe we'd see skaters step up to that level vs. some of the iffy-ness we've seen this past season.

Jumps seperate the skaters. I love Luncinda Rhu but she was a weak jumper and it hurt her competitivness. In today's skating world - she'd probably be a podium threat. Is that progress or better, faster, higher or just dope spins?

Figure88 · Apr 16, 2010

Kwanford Wife said:
True. However, to be truly technically brillant at the elite level a skater should be able to do a complete set of triple jumps with proficient. This should be a given - not a skater by skater issue. If CoP gave a bonus point for a true seven triple program and a higher start value for the quad - I believe we'd see skaters step up to that level vs. some of the iffy-ness we've seen this past season.

Jumps seperate the skaters. I love Luncinda Rhu but she was a weak jumper and it hurt her competitivness. In today's skating world - she'd probably be a podium threat. Is that progress or better, faster, higher or just dope spins?

A skater who has a full triple program is superior to one who has a 3a or 3-3, but is missing one or two triple jumps in their jump repetoir? It doesn't make logical sense to me. In the case of Yuna, she doesn't do a 3lp in competition. However, this is not even a high scoring jump. How is she less technically proficient than a skater who has full triple program but can't do a 3-3 or 2-3, which by the way only a handful of women in the world can do?

Figure88 · Apr 16, 2010

Joesitz said:
Hmmm. A Poster after my own heart. Quality is more important than Quantity. What a concept! Apparently, under CoP, Quantity pays off in big points even if a skater is unable to fulfill the definition requirements. It doesn't matter if a skater can not execute a proper jump when all the skater has to do is fake it. How many skaters are always consistent Fallers, Flutzers, Underrotators? yet they pick up points for Quantity, and to top it off, win medals. Quality be damned!

The perfect reason for me to want to get rid of the SP and use it exclusively for Technical only, with quality as the goal.

Great point. I don't think there are currently many women in the world who could complete a flawless full triple program without problems with UR, flutzing, etc. If so, who are they? In the pre-CoP era, the judging standards were much looser, therefore, a skater receive could receive full credit for "fake" full triple program. But the same skate would probably not pass muster by today's strict technical judging standards.

janetfan · Apr 16, 2010

Figure88 said:
Great point. I don't think there are currently many women in the world who could complete a flawless full triple program without problems with UR, flutzing, etc. If so, who are they? In the pre-CoP era, the judging standards were much looser, therefore, a skater receive could receive full credit for "fake" full triple program. But the same skate would probably not pass muster by today's strict technical judging standards.

By the same token I would get a kick out of seeing some of today's skaters doing school figures.
To learn this discipline would greatly reduce the practice time for 3x3's and 3A's quite a bit.

What we might see instead is better edges, and better control and posture as they changed positions in the freeskate. Maybe more and better multi- directional skating.

It always feels a little shortsighted to call out skaters from earlier eras about edges or urs. And don't forget if they fell there was no rule that gave them credit or points for such obvious mistakes.

Sometimes it is easy to forget that the Ladies in the late 80's and 90's were the first to do all of the triple jumps. I still have not seen a better 3A than Midori - or Tonya for that matter - and this was 20 years ago.

But no doubt the skaters today are training harder, they do more off-ice training, are more conscious about nutrition and many have 3-4 or more coaches/trainers.

They also have the benefit through technolgy of studying the skaters that came before them in a way skaters from the past never had. Coaches can easily tape practices for better feedback and although I don't know much about it - skaters like Patrick Chan are using software for analysis of their jumps.

Persoanlly I cherish so many skaters from the past and the contributions they made to skating.
Peggy was so graceful, Janet not only made evey move meaningful with a flow never seen before, but had a way of connecting with an audience that has rarely been matched.

Other fans can mention other skaters who were the great pioneers of the sport so many of us love to watch today. Carol Heiss, the great champion was the first Lady to do a 2A in competition. Everyone remembers Biellman for her spin but she also was doing a triple lutz back in 1980. Kati is remembered for her theatrical contributions but she also was the first Lady to do the triple flip.

As to these edge calls and UR calls - sometimes they are called very inconsisitently. One expert has said every 3x3 done by Ladies is basically short. Some tech callers are lenient (like in Vancouver where even without replay I saw many urs that were not called) including jumps from the medalists.

Here is a fun clip showing some of the greats from the past:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ThXzSiFLj4&feature=related

Figure88 · Apr 16, 2010

janetfan said:
By the same token I would get a kick out of seeing some of today's skaters doing school figures.
To learn this discipline would greatly reduce the practice time for 3x3's and 3A's quite a bit.

What we might see instead is better edges, and better control and posture as they changed positions in the freeskate. Maybe more and better multi- directional skating.

It always feels a little shortsighted to call out skaters from earlier eras about edges or urs. And don't forget if they fell there was no rule that gave them credit or points for such obvious mistakes.

Sometimes it is easy to forget that the Ladies in the late 80's and 90's were the first to do all of the triple jumps. I still have not seen a better 3A than Midori - or Tonya for that matter - and this was 20 years ago.

But no doubt the skaters today are training harder, they do more off-ice training, are more conscious about nutrition and many have 3-4 or more coaches/trainers.

They also have the benefit through technolgy of studying the skaters that came before them in a way skaters from the past never had. Coaches can easily tape practices for better feedback and although I don't know much about it - skaters like Patrick Chan are using software for analysis of their jumps.

Persoanlly I cherish so many skaters from the past and the contributions they made to skating.
Peggy was so graceful, Janet not only made evey move meaningful with a flow never seen before, but had a way of connecting with an audience that has rarely been matched.

Other fans can mention other skaters who were the great pioneers of the sport so many of us love to watch today. Carol Heiss, the great champion was the first Lady to do a 2A in competition. Everyone remembers Biellman for her spin but she also was doing a triple lutz back in 1980. Kati is remembered for her theatrical contributions but she also was the first Lady to do the triple flip.

As to these edge calls and UR calls - sometimes they are called very inconsisitently. One expert has said every 3x3 done by Ladies is basically short. Some tech callers are lenient (like in Vancouver where even without replay I saw many urs that were not called) including jumps from the medalists.

Here is a fun clip showing some of the greats from the past:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ThXzSiFLj4&feature=related

I agree, comparing figure skating from pre to post-Cop is like comparing apples to oranges. Two different systems with different program requirements and judging standards. Who can say that a skater like Midori Ito would have succeeded under today's judging system? Yes, her 3A appeared fully rotated. However, she did have problems with her leg wrap and programs are technically more different now with the emphasis on completing difficult combo jumps, transitions etc. etc. that pre-Cop skaters didn't really have to deal with. She might have had stamina issues for example.

Joesitz (RIP) · Apr 16, 2010

I presume we are no longer talking about skaters who changed the course of figure skating, and I also presume we will settle in and talk about our favorite skaters in the past fifteen years ignoring anything that happened in the past.

That's just as well since no body can recall Wili Boekel, Alois Lutz, Axel Paulsen, Ulrich Salchow, Rittenberger, Mapes, and the ever popular Jackson Haines. But then, I don't believe they changed the course of figure skating as much as they added to it.

Anyway, I'll mention Dick Button who is the only male skater to win two consecutive Olympic Gold Medal, and moreso because he changed the European Open to the European Closed.

dorispulaski · Apr 16, 2010

The greatest thing about Dick was that he was expected to do at least one thing that had never been seen before every year! Most skaters would be satisfied with just one 'first ever' but Dick was expected to pull a rabbit out of his skates every year.

1. First ever double axel
2. First ever triple loop
3. The flying camel
4. The first double loop double loop combination
5. The first double loop double loop double loop combination
6. The first double axel double loop combination

janetfan · Apr 16, 2010

Joesitz said:
I presume we are no longer talking about skaters who changed the course of figure skating, and I also presume we will settle in and talk about our favorite skaters in the past fifteen years ignoring anything that happened in the past.

That's just as well since no body can recall Wili Boekel, Alois Lutz, Axel Paulsen, Ulrich Salchow, Rittenberger, Mapes, and the ever popular Jackson Haines. But then, I don't believe they changed the course of figure skating as much as they added to it.

.

After reading your post I decided to look for Jackson Haines on YouTube. I didn't expect to find much since he is from the 19th century.

To my surprise my search for Haines did reveal this gem ........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFfQCDHP4SU&feature=related

Mathman · Apr 16, 2010

^

A performance that changed the course of figure skating!

By the way, why hasn't anyone skated to the 1812 Overture? :rock:

ImaginaryPogue · Apr 16, 2010

Kwanford Wife said:
True. However, to be truly technically brillant at the elite level a skater should be able to do a complete set of triple jumps with proficient. This should be a given - not a skater by skater issue. If CoP gave a bonus point for a true seven triple program and a higher start value for the quad - I believe we'd see skaters step up to that level vs. some of the iffy-ness we've seen this past season.

Jumps seperate the skaters. I love Luncinda Rhu but she was a weak jumper and it hurt her competitivness. In today's skating world - she'd probably be a podium threat. Is that progress or better, faster, higher or just dope spins?

Good question. I would have no problem with Lucinda Ruh being a podium threat. Her spins were so far and away ahead of the field that I would love to see her get more credit for them. More specifically, if spins were valued higher, she might have done easier jump layouts, been cleaner, skated better etc. Now, I'm not saying she should top the podium or anything, but in a poor year, a podium threat about sums it up.

The shift we saw with COP was away from the intuitive to the harshly logical, and that's a pretty dramatic shift (and it's not truly complete), and we (enthusiasts and casual fans) still struggle with the change.

Which skaters “changed the course of figure skating?”

Mathman

janetfan

Match Penalty

dlgpffps

ImaginaryPogue

prettykeys

seniorita

janetfan

Match Penalty

Bijoux

Match Penalty

brianjyw

ImaginaryPogue

Kwanford Wife

Figure88

Figure88

janetfan

Match Penalty

Figure88

Joesitz (RIP)

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

janetfan

Match Penalty

Mathman

ImaginaryPogue

Similar threads

Connect with us