Major Changes Expected in Single Skating in 2010-2011 | Page 5 | Golden Skate

Major Changes Expected in Single Skating in 2010-2011

rtureck

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
That analogy is OK but not really true since MJ did not have a pet move that was considered dangerous.

In the entire history of Ladies skating how many have done 3A's? How many Ladies had ratified 3A's last season or to make it even more to the point - how many Ladies even attempted 3A's last season?

Why just look at last season and not the last several seasons, like someone said Yukari Nakano landed more 3a than Mao

Personally I agree with Wally about the purpose of the SP being a little bit like the CD in Ice Dancing.
The purpose was to judge the precision skaters demonstrated on required elements while skating to music. The SP is not merely a shortened version of the LP and that was never it's purpose. Nor was showing off the hardest tricks.

People keep saying the rule change might help several skaters - but there are not "several skaters" there is only one Lady skater doing the 3A.

According to Wally, Mao's batting average on the 3a is poor, so how is this rule change benefiting Mao tht much?
I don't really mind the rule change so much - but I find it incredulous that any poster can't see what it is about and who specifically it is meant to help.

I think that is too much of a conspiracy theory. I think the new rules will benefit Yuna the most since they are adding extra points to the 3/3. And BTW didn't Brian Orser said they are already or will be working on her 3a?

Is this 3A rule change created to take Ladies skating forward - or is it being changed to favor one skater - who is immensely popular - but has been having major technical problems with some of her other jumps and needs help keeping up with a rival?

Let's just call it what it is..........

I disagree, since the new rule change most definitely helps Yuna and may even hurt Mao. About immensely popular? The only thread here at GS that has more than 45 pages is about Yuna. Anyway since this is off season conspiracy theories are always entertaining
 
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Bennett

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 20, 2007
What about the excessive UR penalty and nerdy slow-mo reply popular among YouTubers?

UR should be punished, but it should not be more severely punished than more distracting mistakes such as falls, stepouts, and handsdowns. It is frustrating when the audience get excited, professional commentators all agree that the jumps are cleanly rotated even after looking at the slow-mo, and then it's called otherwise. It is frustrating to see something so subtle and controversial can make a big difference in scores.

Do they have any proposals addressing this issue that has been talked about a million of times during the last couple of years?
 

RumbleFish

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 11, 2010
Double axel is actually half way b/w a double and triple jump, since skaters rotate 2.5 times in air, I find nothing wrong to limit it to 2 per program

I said if number of double axels were to be limited, other double jumps should be limited as well.

Please read Wally's post carefully 3a is not a required element, skaters may substitute it for the 2a.

I advise you to read my post carefully before telling me to read other's post carefully. lol
I didn't say the triple axel would become a required element.
I said I don't like giving advantage to small number of skaters to let them choose triple axel instead of double axels.

Yeah, if yu want to say the proposed rules are "giving small number of skaters advantage", indeed giving one more base point to 3/3 is an advantage to Yuna.

Where to you get the idea of Yuna getting advantage from increased base value?
Rewarding combination jumps more by multiplying 1.1 to the base value is not limited to triple-triples.
The same principle would be applied to Asada's 3A-2T or any other combination jumps.
Please get the facts straight before jumping on other people's posts.
 

Basics

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 8, 2009
Question!!! Does this mean Mao can now do two triple axels in SP? No, right? I think she can only replace a double axel with triple, but can't do another cuz it's not allowed to repeat any triple jump in SP. Am I right?

Besides a spiral being taken out from sp. I don't have a problem with these rules even though I'm a hugh Yuna fan of course.

It will definitely give a few points advantage to Mao, but no worries to Yuna. She has a plenty of options even with two double axels.
 
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janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
Why just look at last season and not the last several seasons, like someone said Yukari Nakano landed more 3a than Mao

]

That is why I said "in the entire history of Ladies skating" ...........

If we had Midori, Tonya and Yukari all competing next season along with Mao the rule change might make more sense. Then 4 out of the top 50 might be attempting a 3A in their SP. :indiff:

BTW, the skaters I mentioned did not always try a 3A in the SP - I think Midori much more than the others - and even Midori bagged her 3A in her Albertville Olympic SP.

But the skaters I mentioned - including Yukari - are NOT competing next season.
This rule change is for ONE skater, feels very politically motivated to me and that is part of what I don't like about it.
 

rtureck

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
That is why I said "in the entire history of Ladies skating" ...........

If we had Midori, Tonya and Yukari all competing next season along with Mao the rule change might make more sense. Then 4 out of the top 50 might be attempting a 3A in their SP. :indiff:

BTW, the skaters I mentioned did not always try a 3A in the SP - I think Midori much more than the others - and even Midori bagged her 3A in her Albertville Olympic SP.

But the skaters I mentioned - including Yukari - are NOT competing next season.
This rule change is for ONE skater, feels very politically motivated to me and that is part of what I don't like about it.

According to Wally, the Japanese federation did not formally request this, but I think there are several factors that influenced the tech committee. One reason may be truly they want to advance the sports. There are some male skaters who were very public on the issue of 3a should be worth more, and they think 3a/2t is more difficult than 3/3. Are the tech guys listening or being influenced. Since Mao is not that consistent with the 3a, this rule change really may not benefit her. But I do see a few ladies finally stepping up to put the 3a in thin practiceeir programs. I am sure many lady skaters are practicing/ working on the 3a, but since there is not much of incentive to put it comp, they are holding back. I have seen Shizuka landing 3a in practice back in 2003
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
A closer analogy would be: Major League Baseball increases the value of a fastball in the zone from one strike to two, if it's above 95 mph. Do you think that might not increase the number of injuries, ruined arms and ruined careers?

No, I don't think so. Aspiring pitchers already try to throw the ball as hard as they can, and will continue to do so no matter what rules are in place.

(I will admit this, though. Ludmilla Nelidina landed a triple Axel at Skate America in 2002 -- who says European ladies can't jump?! Shortly thereafter, she suffered a nervous breakdown and never skated again. :cry: )
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
According to Wally, the Japanese federation did not formally request this, but I think there are several factors that influenced the tech committee. One reason may be truly they want to advance the sports. There are some male skaters who were very public on the issue of 3a should be worth more, and they think 3a/2t is more difficult than 3/3. Are the tech guys listening or being influenced. Since Mao is not that consistent with the 3a, this rule change really may not benefit her. But I do see a few ladies finally stepping up to put the 3a in thin practiceeir programs. I am sure many lady skaters are practicing/ working on the 3a, but since there is not much of incentive to put it comp, they are holding back. I have seen Shizuka landing 3a in practice back in 2003

I did read wally's post and what you are saying is not what I think he was implying.

I am a big fan of Mao's skating and admire her fighting spirit so if I don't agree with the rule change it is not because I am against Mao or for Yuna. Actually I am for Mirai :)

As to holding the sport back I find that absurd when only one skater is attempting a 3A in her SP.
If one wished to say it is holding Mao back it might feel more truthful to me.

Raising the value of the 3A (again) is not the same thing as changing the axel requirements in the SP.

I think you make a fair enough point that the rule changes might not benefit any particular skater but I can't help feeling the axel change is an attempt to do just that.
 

wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
As for limiting number of double axels, I find it unfair to limit double axels only while allowing other double jumps more than twice.
If the Zayak rule were to be applied to double axels, it should limit number of double toes and double loops as well.

There is no need to limit other double jumps. 1) Their values are too low. 2) Limited number of jumping passes act as a natural restraint.

During 07/08 season, Nakano Yukari had far more success with 3A than Mao Asada, and it could happen again.

I examined those on replay, Nakano's 3A were all under-rotated, so are her 3S+3Lo combos.
 

wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Question!!! Does this mean Mao can now do two triple axels in SP? No, right? I think she can only replace a double axel with triple, but can't do another cuz it's not allowed to repeat any triple jump in SP. Am I right?

Correct, the Triple Axel cannot be repeated in the SP. For that matter, neither can the Double Axel, which Mao found out in a hard way at Rostelecom Cup GP last fall, causing her to miss the GPF.


It will definitely give a few points advantage to Mao, but no worries to Yuna. She has a plenty of options even with two double axels.

Not sure, with only 4 Triples to work with, she will end up having to either include the Triple Loop and risk an error on that jump or downgrade the 7th jumping pass to something like a Double Flip. That's about 5 points of TES that is at risk here. This is not a trivial change for her.
 

MikiAndoFan#1

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 30, 2009
I examined those on replay, Nakano's 3A were all under-rotated, so are her 3S+3Lo combos.

But Yukari's 3A were all ratified, except at Nationals and Worlds and she hardly attempted the 3S+3Lo combination, so I think it's an irrelevant fact.
 

wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
But Yukari's 3A were all ratified, except at Nationals and Worlds and she hardly attempted the 3S+3Lo combination, so I think it's an irrelevant fact.

Please show me clips where you think her 3A were ratified. The ones I saw - definitely UR, without a question.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I think you make a fair enough point that the rule changes might not benefit any particular skater but I can't help feeling the axel change is an attempt to do just that.

Well, we had the same discussion a while back about whether the drastic rules changes of the 1970s -- reduction of importance of school figures and creation of the short program -- were put in place specifically to advance the fortunes of one particular skater, or whether instead that one skater just served as a catalyst for change that benefited the sport as a whole.

I agree with RTureck's point that we needn't read anything sinister into this. Just like I don't think the Chicago Bulls bribed the NBA to let Michael Jordan take four steps instead of three on his driving dunks. (The NBA came yp with that all on its own. ;) )
 

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
UR should be punished, but it should not be more severely punished than more distracting mistakes such as falls, stepouts, and handsdowns. It is frustrating when the audience get excited, professional commentators all agree that the jumps are cleanly rotated even after looking at the slow-mo, and then it's called otherwise. It is frustrating to see something so subtle and controversial can make a big difference in scores.

Do they have any proposals addressing this issue that has been talked about a million of times during the last couple of years?

EXACTLY

This is ridiculous. I can't believe nothing (so far) has been done about it :banging:

And heck, for the first time in 8 years I didn't even watch Worlds. Enough is enough
 
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MikiAndoFan#1

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 30, 2009
Please show me clips where you think her 3A were ratified. The ones I saw - definitely UR, without a question.

I was talking about the 3A she landed in the 2007/2008 season. Three out of five of them were ratified.

Skate Canada: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNz5E5Lka50
Cup of Russia: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=li1yV4z89zI
Grand Prix Final: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcMbCNzNF-Q

These were ratified. Just because they were ratified, doesn't mean they were fully rotated.

;)
 

Basics

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 8, 2009
Not sure, with only 4 Triples to work with, she will end up having to either include the Triple Loop and risk an error on that jump or downgrade the 7th jumping pass to something like a Double Flip. That's about 5 points of TES that is at risk here. This is not a trivial change for her.

Actually no. This is what I have for Yuna without 3Lo.

3Lz-3T
3F
2A-2T-2Lo
3F-2T
3S
3Lz
2A

only 0.7 point loss from the current layout. of course, with adding 3Lo, she can now do two 3-3s which will be totally awesome. :love:
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
Well, we had the same discussion a while back about whether the drastic rules changes of the 1970s -- reduction of importance of school figures and creation of the short program -- were put in place specifically to advance the fortunes of one particular skater, or whether instead that one skater just served as a catalyst for change that benefited the sport as a whole.

)

I recall you disagreed with me and said it was about many skaters (and not a skater who retired the next year).

It was about TV broadcasting money and the fact that figures did not work for TV audiences.
With the advent of color TV and better broadcasting possibilties ISU saw an opportunity to increase the popularity of the sport and went with it.

Are you suggesting that the 2A is no longer acceptable to TV and arena viewers and therefore ISU is making this bold move to increase skating's popularity? :think:

I see only one reason for this change and do not think it will make skating more or less popular.
It will help make limited money for a couple of years and then most likely be changed or simply ignored.

I don't believe we will ever see more than 1-2 Lady skaters landing 3A's in the CoP era.
Most are struggling to master the traditional triples and in fact very few do them today.

Maybe it depends on what we like and what we think takes the sport forward.
 
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Robeye

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
No, I don't think so. Aspiring pitchers already try to throw the ball as hard as they can, and will continue to do so no matter what rules are in place.

(I will admit this, though. Ludmilla Nelidina landed a triple Axel at Skate America in 2002 -- who says European ladies can't jump?! Shortly thereafter, she suffered a nervous breakdown and never skated again. :cry: )

This is simply not true. I've played some baseball (enough to know a bit about it, if not enough to brag about :laugh:). Smart coaches will teach aspiring pitchers to emphasize location and movement over pure velocity, as well as change of speed and pitch selection. This is the "craft" of baseball, under the current rules. At the pro level, even power pitchers need 3, maybe 4 types of pitches (only one of which is a 90+ fastball) to be any good. Even so, a lot of these guys develop hand/wrist/back/shoulder/groin, etc. problems that need surgery at some point. Sandy Koufax's career was cut short in his prime because his body broke down under the physical stresses. And for every Koufax who made it to the majors, there are many more whose injuries in high school/college/the minors can be attributed to trying to throw too hard.

My point is that the situation would be even worse if the rules were changed such that throwing 95-mile fastball counted for more than a slider that catches the outside corner. Under the current rules, pitchers like Greg Maddux can exist and be considered a lock for the Hall of Fame. In my hypothetical scenario, where the fastball strikes counts for more than any other pitch, he'd probably have quit very young and become a dentist. Currently, coaches can teach young pitchers the craft because it's a real alternative; but if that theory lost viability under new incentives, you can bet that the off-speed pitch is going to be a thing of the past. The consequence of this would be skyrocketing injuries, because, truth be told, only a very small fraction of pitchers can throw at 95 mph for an extended period without causing serious harm to themselves. I think the analogy I'm trying to draw with figure skating is pretty self-explanatory.

That being said, I can't say that I know for certain one way or the other whether the proposed increase in incentive for the 3A will have such an effect. But IMO it's worth thinking about and shouldn't be dismissed out of hand.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
Actually no. This is what I have for Yuna without 3Lo.

3Lz-3T
3F
2A-2T-2Lo
3F-2T
3S
3Lz
2A

only 0.7 point loss from the current layout. of course, with adding 3Lo, she can now do two 3-3s which will be totally awesome. :love:

Also, I think Yuna can still do the 3L. When the NYT did that video on her, it showed her doing a beautiful triple loop. I just think her team just decided to not have it competition. But that doesn't mean she can't do it. I think it's the same for Mao with the 3S.
 

Iscariot

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 18, 2009
Also, I think Yuna can still do the 3L. When the NYT did that video on her, it showed her doing a beautiful triple loop. I just think her team just decided to not have it competition. But that doesn't mean she can't do it. I think it's the same for Mao with the 3S.
If yuna stays i believe she will replace one of the 2A with the 3 Loop, i saw a vid of her doing 2a-3t-2l so it wont be hard for her
 
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