- Joined
- Jun 27, 2003
Oh, you say that is gone?
I'd like to see you find a quote of mine where I have. I've never said that. I said to get rid of that 'human element' we'd have to do away with judging entirely.
Oh, you say that is gone?
I'd like to see you find a quote of mine where I have. I've never said that. I said to get rid of that 'human element' we'd have to do away with judging entirely.
That makes perfect sense to me, especially if Salander sees herself as a geometer more that an algebraist.
By an astonishing coincidence -- this is true -- I have just put the finishing touches on a paper titled "Picture proofs of Fermat's Last Theorem," which I hope to publish next year. The point of the paper is that if you have strong enough geometric intuition you can cut to the chase and "see" why certain mathematical results just have to be true.
This approach to mathematics, by the way, was the hallmark of the mathematics of classical India. A perfect proof in the Indian tradition consists simply of a picture that is so convincingly drawn that the accompanying proof consists of a single Sanskrit word, "Pasya!" (Behold!)
(I thank Seniorita on this board for helping me get the Greek version right: Óπερ Éδει Δείξαι. )
Not that exaggerated, and uh yeah, I can say Sarah has been outskated; I bet many can. Figure skating is more than only about jumps--underrotated jumps, at that. As a casual skating fan who'd seen Kristi on TV in 1992, I watched with puzzlement and a little disgust when Sarah's obviously underrotated/sloppy jumps were apparently accepted. ("Skating going forward", my ***.) Her underrotations were obvious to me, a casual who'd never scrutinized the technical aspects of any programs, and not even in slow-motion! And why? Because they got in the way of me actually enjoying the performance as a whole. They were that distracting. I try really hard to steer away from criticizing any skaters because I know they're all just trying to do their best, but for whatever reason Sarah's Olympic LP bothers me a lot. She truly did skate freely--and recklessly, like she didn't give a hoot about anything, including polish and technique. I took it as an assault to my eyes and a lack of respect for the sport.Very exaggerated criticism. Tara had to be second in terms of difficulty. I loved both skaters. It seemed like destiny for both. What warriors! Well, I wish Hughes would try a comeback! People are so obsessed with these judges and their slo mo UR calls. Well, I guess no one can say she's been outskated yet in an Olympics.
This is a very fair analysis. Thanks for highlighting Sarah's better qualities while admitting at least one of her flaws. This is the way to defend a skater, not overlook their shortcomings...Cheated jumps aside, Sarah had many great qualities as a skater. I often felt the harsh criticism that her skating faced was way exaggerated. She had interesting programs, good in-betweens (more so than Kwan and Cohen I'd say at the time), great spins, solid basics and a good sense of musicality, even if she was a little less polished than some of the other top skaters.
I agree with you on YuNa's 3-3's being the prettiest. I also (personally) consider Tara's 1998 LP the most technically demanding of any we have seen from the ladies, and also one of the freest and most joyful. Nice to watch, too.Certainly true with Sarah. Probably true with Tara, whose jumps were tiny. But Tara did do a difficult 3-Loop/3-Loop, which no one before or since to my recollection has done. And I say this as someone who is definitely not a Tara fan! I do think that Yu Na's 3-3's are the biggest, most powerful and prettiest of any lady skater.
Yea, but I don't think anyone expected her to win the gold. I still remember when she won, my reaction was like "what?!!!" She skated well, but there was nothing special about it. Of course, seeing OGM slip pass Michelle a second time didn't help either. But I guess I was more tolerant when Tara won, because her performance was much more impressive than Sarah's.
miki and LayFan's feelings are exactly mine. I thought Shizuka's win was boring and the ladies event in 2006 as a whole was underwhelming, but at least she was pleasant to watch. (I think that year was the most disappointing for the ladies in recent memory.) Outside of that competition, Shizuka is impressive and beautiful. 2002 was more memorable for me, but for different reasons...Second of all, maybe how memorable Shizuka's skate is depends on where you are from. As much as I think Sarah deserved her win, I don't find her skate nearly as memorable as Tara's or Oksana's or Kristi's or even Sasha's silver medal performances in 2006.
Sarah was an amazing skater but there is something awkward about her and it's not one of those skates that I feel like watching over and over again. That's just me.
Even so, her victory was much more memorable to me than Shizuka's. But I suspect it's because I'm American and Sarah was American and her win was huge news that Olympics whereas in 2006 the huge news from the American perspective was that Sasha fell twice in her LP and lost to a Japanese skater.
I'm sure Shizuka's gold medal victory was HUGELY memorable in Japan, however.
As for the skates themselves, I remember that Sarah's skate was free and daring but that I found her style a bit awkward. I remember that Shizuka's skate was reserved but very elegant and I remember her gorgeous Ina Bauer and her spiral positions.
Thank you for highlighting all these differences when it comes to the pressure that was on YuNa at the Olympics. There is a difference between the subjective pressure someone feels and the external pressure that is on someone. Just because YuNa said she didn't feel pressure doesn't mean there weren't enormous expectations on her shoulders that perhaps other well-seasoned skaters would not have been able to carry. It's to YuNa and her team's credit that she was so-well prepared and in the zone. (As an aside, as evidenced by her SP, Mao was also, but it came a little too late in the season so she was less assured when it came time for her LP, I think.) On the other hand, the protests about how skating fans have no alleged right to say whether Sarah or other skaters didn't have much pressure on them...are silly. Because while we can't know how someone feels, we can say that the circumstances surrounding certain skaters appear to be lighter than for others.I agree. Other skaters have been under pressure from their countries to win, but generally those skaters have been part of a dynasty: Witt for East Germany, all the various Russians/Soviets, American girls. For example, while Michelle was under pressure to win at both the '98 and '02 Olympics, there was someone else in the wings from her country--who in both cases in fact won. Similarly, Mao could have messed up royally, and Japan was still sitting on an existing OGM from the '06 Olympics. By contrast, YuNa was her country's one and only, in this Olympics and in all previous Games as well. Add to that the traditional decades-old rivalry with Japan, and the pressure must have been beyond our capacity to imagine. A Korean friend of mine said that practically everyone in Korea was watching. Whether YuNa felt every ounce of the pressure that night is not the issue. It was in all ways unprecedented. Kudos to Orser for somehow helping her rise above the tension when it counted the most. Her demeanor that night was as noteworthy as the size of her jumps.
Darn it, Mathman. I loved Irina...and now I have to know how she may have won if the judging had gone slightly differently???There is always a teeny element of luck in any sporting event. Sarah "made her own luck" by skating her best at the Olympics. But even so, there were a number of things outside of Sarah's control that had to fall just right.
Sarah was somewhat held up in the short program. She received scores as low as 5.1 and 5.2 in technical merit, and could easily have been placed behind both Funie Suguri and Maria Butryskaya. If she had come out of the SP in 5th or 6th it would not have mattered how brilliant her free skate was.
Plus, in the SP many observers thought Slutskaya should have placed first with Michelle second. If that had happened, Slutskaya would have won the overall gold no matter what Sarah did in the LP.
Then in the LP, Michelle did not have to beat Sarah to win the gold. All she had to do was beat Slutskaya for second. Michelle fell and Slutskaya teetered and tottered but stayed on her feet, inserting herself between Sarah and Michelle in the LP and giving Sarah the victory, five judges to four. Slutskaya and Hughes were tied in factored placements overall, and Sarah won on the tie-breaker.
Well, that's sports. Good for her.
I had forgotten about that! What??? for this big contribution by me you only refer to Golden Skates?? Oh please it is not necessary, as long as you dedicate the book to me and I get the Nobel next year somehow. Just that, I m a modest person.(I thank Seniorita on this board for helping me get the Greek version right: Óπερ Éδει Δείξαι. )
I had forgotten about that! What??? for this big contribution by me you only refer to Golden Skates?? Oh please it is not necessary, as long as you dedicate the book to me and I get the Nobel next year somehow. Just that, I m a modest person.
I guess RD beat me to it
Well, I'd still like an answer since the math/stats geeks (fond word!) do come out on this board, how Hughes and now Tara would be scored under CoP. Well maybe the CoP students will watch these skates in their 'spare time' and give an idea. Bias and politics aside, it seems like it allows for more accountability from the judges and they continue to tweak it.
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Well, I'd still like an answer since the math/stats geeks (fond word!) do come out on this board, how Hughes and now Tara would be scored under CoP. Well maybe the CoP students will watch these skates in their 'spare time' and give an idea. Bias and politics aside, it seems like it allows for more accountability from the judges and they continue to tweak it.
The most annoying thing for me is seeing how badly so many gals do those same three spiral positions that only look good on Sasha, Alisssa, Mirai and Mao. Joannie modifies hers to her flexibility and so she looks ok. Kim does not have the line, straight legs, toe point and thus she looks a little less polished. I don't know how we can stop the cloning going on. Only in the footwork do we see some individuality. Sometimes I just get so frustrated at the "packed" busy programs that are required under CoP. Guess I enjoyed more of the old 6.0 programs more.
The most annoying thing for me is seeing how badly so many gals do those same three spiral positions that only look good on Sasha, Alisssa, Mirai and Mao. Joannie modifies hers to her flexibility and so she looks ok. Kim does not have the line, straight legs, toe point and thus she looks a little less polished. I don't know how we can stop the cloning going on. Only in the footwork do we see some individuality. Sometimes I just get so frustrated at the "packed" busy programs that are required under CoP. Guess I enjoyed more of the old 6.0 programs more.
The most annoying thing for me is seeing how badly so many gals do those same three spiral positions that only look good on Sasha, Alisssa, Mirai and Mao. Joannie modifies hers to her flexibility and so she looks ok. Kim does not have the line, straight legs, toe point and thus she looks a little less polished. I don't know how we can stop the cloning going on. Only in the footwork do we see some individuality. Sometimes I just get so frustrated at the "packed" busy programs that are required under CoP. Guess I enjoyed more of the old 6.0 programs more.
Some feel the same way about steps. But can the CoP thrive and be relevant without categorizing every move a skater makes?