Hersh: Nagasu not on par with Flatt? HUH? | Page 8 | Golden Skate

Hersh: Nagasu not on par with Flatt? HUH?

PolymerBob

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Feb 17, 2007
At Nationals, I was hoping Sasha would make the Olympic team. Wouldn't that have been something?
Wouldn't it have been even more something if she won in Vancouver?
 

janetfan

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May 15, 2009
At Nationals, I was hoping Sasha would make the Olympic team. Wouldn't that have been something?
Wouldn't it have been even more something if she won in Vancouver?

Yep - if only we had four spots then Sasha would have been a three-time Olympian. :)
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
Sometimes I wonder what would have happened if Sasha had not made those early mistakes and won the OGM?

My gosh, I don't know if the Kween's fans could have gone on living :unsure:

First Tara, then Sarah - most likely the indignity of Sasha winning would have been a burden too great for most of them to bear ;)

If I may politely say so, pooh! Michelle is probably my favorite skater ever, but I would have been thrilled if Sasha had won the OGM in 2006. (Maybe I'm a freak of nature among Kween fans, but I bet not.) I think Sasha is one of the most memorable skaters to come from the U.S.--despite some small flaws, she has great beauty and musicality and an individual style. But her determination to finish well after the falls in her long program may have been even more admirable than a perfect skate would have been, and an Olympic silver is not to be sneezed at. Of course, like PolymerBob, I would have loved to see her compete at this year's Olympics. But what she did in the two Games prior to this one was lovely enough. Remember that great short program in 2002?

Janetfan, I like what you said earlier about Michelle's style and the CoP. Though I'm sure she would have adapted to CoP had she continued, or had it been instituted during her peak years, a lot of what made her special was not elements that can be measured with that kind of precision. She skated, as you say, with her heart. It makes me wonder who else is being forced into the cookie-cutter mold of CoP skating, who would otherwise let loose with skating magic. Sigh...I understand the benefits of the Code of Points, but I don't have to love it.
 
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janetfan

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May 15, 2009
If I may politely say so, pooh! Michelle is probably my favorite skater ever, but I would have been thrilled if Sasha had won the OGM in 2006. (Maybe I'm a freak of nature among Kween fans, but I bet not.) I think Sasha is one of the most memorable skaters to come from the U.S.--despite some small flaws, she has great beauty and musicality and an individual style. But her determination to finish well after the falls in her long program may have been even more admirable than a perfect skate would have been, and an Olympic silver is not to be sneezed at. Of course, like PolymerBob, I would have loved to see her compete at this year's Olympics. But what she did in the two Games prior to this one was lovely enough. Remember that great short program in 2002?

Sure I remember - and also the great SP from '06.
It's funny for me because I am a big fan of both girls. But it doesn't take too much praise for Sasha here to bring out the claws of a Kwan fan.

If I even mention I love Sasha's Swan Lake costume a post will follow quickly enough with an equally nice Michelle dress. :)
That doesn't mean you are like that - and sorry to make you go "pooh."
You even show displeasure in a classy manner and believe it or not I think once a week or so - "why can't I be half as nice as Olympia?"

ETA: Here is Sasha's Swan Lake dress - there is even a site dedicated to it!

http://swanlake.kyoudai.net/
 
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Joined
Jul 11, 2003
It's a Michelle thread now for easy posting. No one has anything new to say about her. Whether or not she caused the drop in Figure Skating is moot. She left the stars when Tara, won back in 98, and had her father coached her in 2006 Remember?

And no one has any idea on how to get the fans back into the Arena or get the ratings of the international competitions back up to where they were, except they are waiting for a new Michelle. It's like Waiting for Godot. And with Nagasu not on par with Flatt, it has gone with the wind. Fantastick, the whole of American figure skating is going to pots and we are remembering Kwan.

So forget any ideas about the future of American figure skating or some sort of rivalry between Mirai and Rachael, and concentrate on the memory on one whose expectations were never met.
 

janetfan

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May 15, 2009
It's a Michelle thread now for easy posting. No one has anything new to say about her. Whether or not she caused the drop in Figure Skating is moot. She left the stars when Tara, won back in 98, and had her father coached her in 2006 Remember?

And no one has any idea on how to get the fans back into the Arena or get the ratings of the international competitions back up to where they were, except they are waiting for a new Michelle. It's like Waiting for Godot. And with Nagasu not on par with Flatt, it has gone with the wind. Fantastick, the whole of American figure skating is going to pots and we are remembering Kwan.

So forget any ideas about the future of American figure skating or some sort of rivalry between Mirai and Rachael, and concentrate on the memory on one whose expectations were never met.

Maybe Michelle and Sasha because most here never saw Janet skate. Or Linda, Roz and Debi through their competitive years.

I am not living or dying for international medals and am happy enough watching our current skaters. Alissa shows so much of what I enjoy from a skater and so does Mirai.

Caroline has qualities I like and so do some of the new crop. Skating did not begin for me with Michelle and it won't end with her either. But she is not only hard to forget - she deserves to be remembered. Sasha too.
 
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Joined
Jun 21, 2003
janetfan said:
If I even mention I love Sasha's Swan Lake costume a post will follow quickly enough with an equally nice Michelle dress. :)

I can create my own Michelle Kwan dress. For $8.97 you can, too! :yes:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00000K3PX/?tag=softwaredigger-20

Sometimes I wonder what would have happened if Sasha had not made those early mistakes and won the OGM?

My gosh, I don't know if the Kween's fans could have gone on living

First Tara, then Sarah - most likely the indignity of Sasha winning would have been a burden too great for most of them to bear.

So true! Yet another wet-behind-the ears whippersnapper jumping up and stealing Michelle’s rightful medal?

The only thing worse would have been if Irina had won in 2006, getting ahead of Michelle on the all-time great list!
 

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Sometimes I wonder what would have happened if Sasha had not made those early mistakes and won the OGM?

My gosh, I don't know if the Kween's fans could have gone on living :unsure:

Yeah, we'd likely have needed the local police force ;)
 
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Joined
Jun 21, 2003
And no one has any idea on how to get the fans back into the Arena or get the ratings of the international competitions back up to where they were,...

The funny thing to me is that American fans were never much into international competitions anyway, even when the popularity of skating was at its height. The big television draws (setting aside the Olympics once every four years) were Skate America and U.S. Nationals. Cheesefests and pro competitions were popular, too, for a time.

There never was much interest among American fans in who won Trophee Lalique, the Grand Prix Final, or even Worlds.

Michelle won nine U.S. championships, many of them with highlight reel performances. I do not expect ever again to see anything to match that run.
 

janetfan

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May 15, 2009
Michelle won nine U.S. championships, many of them with highlight reel performances. I do not expect ever again to see anything to match that run.

Mirabel Vinson Owen probably felt the same way after she won her 9th US Ladies title. How many US Pairs titles did she also win? :think:
 

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Well, to be fair, the GP is like the "regular season". And typically, regular season games will never be the draw that playoff or championship games are. Just because there's more at stake. Like the Olympics. I guess US Nationals would be a very(, very) distant second as far as popularity goes. Even when NBC took back the GP last season, I don't think any of those events they aired cracked even 1% of households. US Nationals this year I think got a 3.4 and the night of the OLY ladies FS drew a 13 or something like that.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
Ooh, Janetfan, I just looked at that link to Sasha's Swan Lake dress. It's gorgeous without giving me any thought of anyone else's dress.

I can't remember reading how many pairs titles Maribel Vinson Owen won. She was the root and tree of American skating for a good long time! Even after she stopped skating, she was a great coach. It's good for you to remind us that skating has a long history, and certainly your namesake Janet Lynn is someone to invoke. I say grace for YouTube at least three times a week, because not only are those past skaters available to me, they can be viewed by anyone who wonders what the fuss is all about.

Interestingly, I learned about the Owens from a book by Toller Cranston. He praised two skaters in that book, Maribel's younger daughter Laurence, and Janet Lynn. I went on a research mission and found out about the family. A beautiful story of skating achievement, but with the most tragic end you can imagine. This is not news to Janetfan, but to those of you who are new to the skating world, in 1961, Laurence Owen was the U.S. Ladies' Singles champion, and her older sister Maribel was the pairs champion. Their mother, the nine-times-champion Maribel V. Owen was their coach. All three were on the plane that went down on its way to the World Championships. No one survived the crash.
 

janetfan

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May 15, 2009
Here is wonderful Laurie right after winning her first US ladies Championship.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/cover/featured/7704/index.htm

Mirabel was Frank Carroll's coach - and I always felt the tradition of US Skating best exemplified by Mirabel passed through Frank to Michelle.
And now, hopefully Mirai.

ETA: Mirabel was also the coach of Natl, World and Olympic Champion, Dr. Tenley Albright.
And yes, it is OK to call Tenley Doctor :)
 
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Jun 21, 2003
Mathman said:
Michelle won nine U.S. championships, many of them with highlight reel performances. I do not expect ever again to see anything to match that run.

Mirabel Vinson Owen probably felt the same way after she won her 9th US Ladies title.

And Mrs. Owen was right.

I think I will be proved right, too. But who knows -- I might still be around for the next 77 years and see the next miracle run after all. :yes:

How many pairs titles did she win

Six (I looked it up No need to thank me, I live to serve. :laugh: )

In looking up this record I also found out that the record for U.S. pairs titles is 9, by Teresa Weld and Nathan Niles, 1918 and 1920 to 1927). Another record that I do not expect to live long enough to see matched.
 
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Joined
Jun 21, 2003
^ You beat me to it by deleting that post! :laugh:

But Beatrix Loughram would have been the first U.S. lady to win an Olympic gold medal (1924) if it hadn't been for Herma Szabo. (Szabo is one of only four ladies in history to win five or more world championships. An amaxing feat! :yes: )

And this same Beatrix Lougheam would have been the first U.S, lady to win an Olympic gold medal in pairs (with partner Sherwin Badger, in 1932), if it hadn't been for Brunet and Brunet.

By the way, the 1932 battle between Sonia Henie and Celcilia College, in which Maribel Vinson took the bronze, remains one of the outstanding competitions of all time, with both skaters delivering amazing performances.

(But you knew all that. :) )
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
I have a book somewhere (being a book packrat and especially a skating book packrat) that's nothing but reproductions of news articles about skating. I know I read in it about the 1932 Olympics but have forgotten the details. Now you've inspired me to go back and read about it again, Math. That's something I guess we won't find on YouTube...alas. At least, not more than snippets of it. Maybe they showed thirty seconds of it in a movie newsreel.

Imagine that there are that many ladies who have won five or more world championships! Let's see: Beatrice Loughram of course, Henie, Kwan...who else? Witt didn't, I'm fairly sure, because Sumners and Debbi Thomas each won one during Witt's tenure.
 

janetfan

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May 15, 2009
^ You beat me to it by deleting that post! :laugh:

But Beatrix Loughram would have been the first U.S. lady to win an Olympic gold medal (1924) if it hadn't been for Herma Szabo. (Szabo is one of only four ladies in history to win five or more world championships. An amaxing feat!

And this same Beatrix Lougheam would have been the first U.S, lady to win an Olympic gold medal in pairs (with partner Sherwin Badger, in 1932), if it hadn't been for Brunet and Brunet.

By the way, the 1932 battle between Sonia Henie and Celcilia College, in which Maribel Vinson took the bronze, remains one of the outstanding competitions of all time, with both skaters delivering amazing performances.

(But you knew all that. :) )

I know sometimes - when I can still remember :)

Wanted to add that Mirabel was a three time Olympian placing 4th in '28, 3rd in '32 and 5th in '36.
She also placed 5th in Pairs at the Olympics.

In 1961 her two daughters won US Championships - Laurance in Singles and Mirabel in Pairs.

Laurance, US Champion at 16 was the heir to Tenley and Carol Heiss.
Many think she would have been a heavy favorite for Gold at the '64 Olympics.

So what does this have to do with winning back fans :think:
I have no idea but US Ladies certainly have a wonderful tradition.

And despite how many fans love to dump on Hersh - look at this thread he inspired.....;)
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Imagine that there are that many ladies who have won five or more world championships!

I'm pretty sure it's Szabo, Henie, Carol Heiss and Michelle.

And despite how many fans love to dump on Hersh - look at this thread he inspired...

Yeah, let's get back to that scoundrel.

Here is where Hersh went wrong. Given the content of his story, the headline is misleading.

If the headline says, "Man bites dog," then you expect the story to be about a man who bit a dog. Hersh's headline made it seem like the article was going to be about Mirai being better than Rachael. But instead it was about the USFSA's
criteria for funding envelopes, which has nothing to do with either Rachael or Mirai.

Not only that, but the majority of the story is not about that either. It is about how hard it is to skate competitively and go to school at the same time. If I were going to write an article about that, my headline would be, "It's hard to go to school and skate competitively at the same time." (I guess that's why I am not a journalist. :) )
 

janetfan

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May 15, 2009
I'm pretty sure it's Szabo, Henie, Carol Heiss and Michelle.



Yeah, let's get back to that scoundrel.

Here is where Hersh went wrong. Given the content of his story, the headline is misleading.

If the headline says, "Man bites dog," then you expect the story to be about a man who bit a dog. Hersh's headline made it seem like the article was going to be about Mirai being better than Rachael. But instead it was about the USFSA's
criteria for funding envelopes, which has nothing to do with either Rachael or Mirai.

Not only that, but the majority of the story is not about that either. It is about how hard it is to skate competitively and go to school at the same time. If I were going to write an article about that, my headline would be, "It's hard to go to school and skate competitively at the same time." (I guess that's why I am not a journalist. :) )

You gotta have the sizzle baby.
Carol won 5 WC's " I just posted on a different thread she won 4.
Did she win 5 straight from 1956 to 1960? What a skater!
 

PolymerBob

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2007
And no one has any idea on how to get the fans back into the Arena or get the ratings of the international competitions back up to where they were, except they are waiting for a new Michelle. It's like Waiting for Godot. And with Nagasu not on par with Flatt, it has gone with the wind. Fantastick, the whole of American figure skating is going to pots and we are remembering Kwan.

There are 2 things that can save American skating ............. another Michelle ...........

.................... or another Tonya !!!! :eek:
 
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