The Kween and the Queen

jenaj · Jun 9, 2010

Mathman said:
Gosh, I had forgotten how skinny Michelle was that season.

Michelle performed that program eight times (Goodwill Games, Skate America, Skate Canada, Grand Prix Finals, U.S. Nationals, Olympics, Worlds Qualifying, and Worlds LP), and never hit all her planned jumps in any performance.

That's assuming she planned the triple-triple at Nationals, right? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe she hit all 6 triples. Also, I think she skated clean with 6 triples at World's (not the QR).

brianjyw · Jun 9, 2010

Layfan said:
Here are Michelle and Yuna skating to the same music (and wearing similar costumes) (Sorry if someone has already done this in this very long thread ... I haven't seen it if they have.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yR4V...B7E70FD4&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=31

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-xwx-Z3ijc

It's absolutely impossible for me to decide which performance I like better.

All in all, I think Kim's choreography is far more intricate and I just LOVE, LOVE the way she hits those sharp notes in the music. Michelle skates through them. Every time I watch this performance of Kim's I fall in love with it even more.

But the ending of Michelle's program shows off qualities that Kim has never displayed: I love her one-footed transition from her spiral into the spin. And then there are the two falling leaf splits at the end.

Do you think Kim chose her costume as tribute to Michelle, who she loves so much?

I must concede that this is one of the areas Michelle excelled Yuna.

HalfTriple · Jun 9, 2010

os168 said:
May be in this respect, Yuna's artistc quality wasn't as polished as Michelle for this piece,

Maturity is what it should mean, I presume. Solidity, balance and passion are for Kwan's resume. Qualities for Kim's.

janetfan · Jun 9, 2010

Some interesting replies and comparisons on this thread.

I think watching these two programs shows both skaters have passion and a very strong presense on the ice.

What about the difference in scoring systems they were skating under? Does it make a difference - and if so how much?

Looking back at 17 year old Sasha's 2002 Olympic skate to Carmen:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYUbEVvTC2E&feature=related

and then at 16 year old Mirai's 2010 Carmen do we see much difference in the presentation style?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rJX0_QqCTE

OS · Jun 9, 2010

According to this article, looks like we have a formal quote from Yuna on her Scherazade choices.

http://www.iceskatingintnl.com/archive/four_continents/4c08 l.htm

"Yu-na Kim was not only aware that Michelle Kwan had previously skated to Rimsky Korsakov’s Sheherazade, Kim said that performance had been an inspiration to her and she had always wanted to skate to this music, too."

(Edit: Oops I forgot to give credit to jaylee's post @ ynkf)

Layfan · Jun 9, 2010

os168 said:
According to this article, looks like we have a formal quote from Yuna on her Scherazade choices.

http://www.iceskatingintnl.com/archive/four_continents/4c08 l.htm

"Yu-na Kim was not only aware that Michelle Kwan had previously skated to Rimsky Korsakov’s Sheherazade, Kim said that performance had been an inspiration to her and she had always wanted to skate to this music, too."

Thanks Os! Nice little bit of trivia. I can't believe I never picked up on this before.

Layfan · Jun 9, 2010

janetfan said:
Some interesting replies and comparisons on this thread.

I think watching these two programs shows both skaters have passion and a very strong presense on the ice.

What about the difference in scoring systems they were skating under? Does it make a difference - and if so how much?

Looking back at 17 year old Sasha's 2002 Olympic skate to Carmen:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYUbEVvTC2E&feature=related

and then at 16 year old Mirai's 2010 Carmen do we see much difference in the presentation style?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rJX0_QqCTE

Oh, wow. I wonder what would have happened if Sasha had played it safe and not gone for the 3x3? She clearly didn't have the speed for the second triple but I supposed she felt she had to try it because of Sarah's performance. She may have been right. On the other hand, if Sasha had played it safe and been clean could she have knocked Irina or Michelle off the podium? :jaw:

Anyway, I think Mirai and Sasha's presentation style are pretty different. Overall, Sasha's style, even back then, was more polished than Mirai. But I would also say that Mirai's Carmen showed a bit more personality. Sasha got better and better and showing personality after 2002.

Mirai needs work on that front too because when she gets nervous her skating gets pretty introverted and sort of has an automatic feel. But not at the Olympics. She was completely irresistible at the Olympics. And Nationals. There was no holding back at all at Nationals.

janetfan · Jun 9, 2010

Layfan said:
Oh, wow. I wonder what would have happened if Sasha had played it safe and not gone for the 3x3? She clearly didn't have the speed for the second triple but I supposed she felt she had to try it because of Sarah's performance. She may have been right. On the other hand, if Sasha had played it safe and been clean could she have knocked Irina or Michelle off the podium?

Anyway, I think Mirai and Sasha's presentation style are pretty different. Overall, Sasha's style, even back then, was more polished than Mirai. But I would also say that Mirai's Carmen showed a bit more personality. Sasha got better and better and showing personality after 2002.

Mirai needs work on that front too because when she gets nervous her skating gets pretty introverted and sort of has an automatic feel. But not at the Olympics. She was completely irresistible at the Olympics. And Nationals. There was no holding back at all at Nationals.

I wonder what would have happened if Sahsa had landed the 3x3. :think:

Lilith11 · Jun 9, 2010

Anyways, I just found quite a touching quote; credit to jaylee@YKF :3

"Yu-na Kim was not only aware that Michelle Kwan had previously skated to Rimsky Korsakov’s Sheherazade, Kim said that performance had been an inspiration to her and she had always wanted to skate to this music, too."

:3

Layfan · Jun 10, 2010

janetfan said:
I wonder what would have happened if Sahsa had landed the 3x3. :think:

We'll never know. But I say Sasha would have won and there would have been all this controversy about her defeating Sarah even though Sarah did two 3-3s.

I was more reacting to watching Sasha fall while reaching for a difficult element. Normally with Sasha, it seemed she would stumble out of nerves or loss of concentration - often even hitting her most difficult elements and then falling on an easier one ... I was intrigued by watching her fall this time because she took a risk.

Reminds me of Mirai's Olympic SP. She had planned a 3-3 but knew she didn't have enough speed going into the second jump and pushed out a double. Good competitive instincts. :agree:

princess9 · Jun 10, 2010

I personally prefer Mirai's Carmen over Sasha's but thought Witt captured it best with great charisma, regarding above posts/discussion.

I will have to rewatch Shez as done by Kim. Very popular skating music and Kim looked lovely. But I wish she had not copied the dress so closely. Better to look unique despite the good intentions.

Olympia · Jun 10, 2010

Lilith11 said:
Anyways, I just found quite a touching quote; credit to jaylee@YKF :3

"Yu-na Kim was not only aware that Michelle Kwan had previously skated to Rimsky Korsakov’s Sheherazade, Kim said that performance had been an inspiration to her and she had always wanted to skate to this music, too."

:3

That reminds me of Yuka Sato's program one year at the pro competition at Landover. (Golly, I miss that competition!) She had worked up a program to "Afternoon of a Faun," which many consider to be Janet Lynn's signature piece. Turned out that Janet was present at the program! (She may even have been one of the judges; I can't remember.) The announcer said that Yuka, a modest person, was worried that Janet might be insulted at seeing her music used by someone else. She sent word to Janet that she would like her to think of it as a tribute. And indeed, Lynn was impressed. When a great skater references another great skater, it can be a moment to treasure for all involved, especially the audience.

Layfan · Jun 10, 2010

Olympia said:
That reminds me of Yuka Sato's program one year at the pro competition at Landover. (Golly, I miss that competition!) She had worked up a program to "Afternoon of a Faun," which many consider to be Janet Lynn's signature piece. Turned out that Janet was present at the program! (She may even have been one of the judges; I can't remember.) The announcer said that Yuka, a modest person, was worried that Janet might be insulted at seeing her music used by someone else. She sent word to Janet that she would like her to think of it as a tribute. And indeed, Lynn was impressed. When a great skater references another great skater, it can be a moment to treasure for all involved, especially the audience.

:yes:

I personally prefer Mirai's Carmen over Sasha's but thought Witt captured it best with great charisma, regarding above posts/discussion.

I wonder if we'll never see the kind of bold, literal interpretation that Kat gave to Carmen ever again in ladies competition. Costume and choreography styles go in an out of fashion, of course, and that sort of choreography is out. But I also think it takes a lot of confidence and guts to go out there and act out a character so literally. You have to be pretty darned amazing or risk looking silly. The only lady skater who ever did that again as I far as I can remember is Oksana Baiul with her Swan SP. Can you imagine any of today's skaters going out there with that outlandish black swan costume and getting away with it?? No, but Oskana did.
Compare that with more recent swan performances - Sasha or Alissa's - gorgeous but there's no real sign of the swan.

Tonichelle · Jun 10, 2010

Olympia said:
That reminds me of Yuka Sato's program one year at the pro competition at Landover. (Golly, I miss that competition!) She had worked up a program to "Afternoon of a Faun," which many consider to be Janet Lynn's signature piece. Turned out that Janet was present at the program! (She may even have been one of the judges; I can't remember.) The announcer said that Yuka, a modest person, was worried that Janet might be insulted at seeing her music used by someone else. She sent word to Janet that she would like her to think of it as a tribute. And indeed, Lynn was impressed. When a great skater references another great skater, it can be a moment to treasure for all involved, especially the audience.

I miss Ice Wars, too.

prettykeys · Jun 10, 2010

Layfan said:
Here are Michelle and Yuna skating to the same music (and wearing similar costumes) (Sorry if someone has already done this in this very long thread ... I haven't seen it if they have.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yR4V...B7E70FD4&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=31

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-xwx-Z3ijc

It's absolutely impossible for me to decide which performance I like better.

All in all, I think Kim's choreography is far more intricate and I just LOVE, LOVE the way she hits those sharp notes in the music. Michelle skates through them. Every time I watch this performance of Kim's I fall in love with it even more.

But the ending of Michelle's program shows off qualities that Kim has never displayed: I love her one-footed transition from her spiral into the spin. And then there are the two falling leaf splits at the end.

I echo your analysis.

It's kinda funny...I think we skating fans have become a little spoiled in recent years. When you look back at good skates from a long enough past, even a quality performance may lack some measure of audience connection. It's a strange experience for a newbie like me to look at a clip of, for example, Peggy Fleming or Dorothy Hamill--lovely, talented skaters, but there is an impersonal flatness that I'm not used to when I watch them. Modern skaters really try harder to engage the audience, and it shows.

OS · Jun 10, 2010

princess9 said:
I personally prefer Mirai's Carmen over Sasha's but thought Witt captured it best with great charisma, regarding above posts/discussion.

I will have to rewatch Shez as done by Kim. Very popular skating music and Kim looked lovely. But I wish she had not copied the dress so closely. Better to look unique despite the good intentions.

Carmen= Witt wins hands down. She embodies the spirit of Bizet's Carmen, sexy, mysterious, confident gypsy queen, both passion and cruel. Mirai's is the cinema certified U version (kids can watch it without supervision). While full of joy, it is hardly Carmen. It is 100% Mirai though, which can't be a bad thing. She is simply delightful and happy bunny embodied when she skates well.

Scheherazade Red dress
I can't help but think this was how Yuna picture this in her mind performing she was 13 watching Kwan at nationals. She in the red and gold dress doing the Kween's moves. And whilst it is always good to be unique, but then it wouldn't really be a proper 'obvious' tribute would it?

To think this definitely caught the eye (and heart?) of Kwan so she even agreed to come out retirement to perform for us with Yuna in IAS in Korea, I'd say the red dress was totally worth it! It almost like a dialogue of the 2 without stating the obvious

janetfan · Jun 10, 2010

Olympia said:
That reminds me of Yuka Sato's program one year at the pro competition at Landover. (Golly, I miss that competition!) She had worked up a program to "Afternoon of a Faun," which many consider to be Janet Lynn's signature piece. Turned out that Janet was present at the program! (She may even have been one of the judges; I can't remember.) The announcer said that Yuka, a modest person, was worried that Janet might be insulted at seeing her music used by someone else. She sent word to Janet that she would like her to think of it as a tribute. And indeed, Lynn was impressed. When a great skater references another great skater, it can be a moment to treasure for all involved, especially the audience.

Here is Yuka's lovely "Afternoon of a Faun" program:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ws8z...D42E80250&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=3

and here is an interesting article about portraying "Carmen"

"Earthy Carmen swaps charisma for sluttishness"

http://www.smh.com.au/news/arts/ear...or-sluttishness/2008/01/20/1200764077353.html

"When Carmen is played more two-dimensional, more as a prostitute, as a crass, blatantly sexual character, that minimises her depth," she says. "She is an extremely charismatic and confident woman. It's this confidence, this knowledge of herself that makes her such a draw to everybody. It's not because she's going around being slutty."

Olympia · Jun 10, 2010

Thanks so much for posting the link to Yuka's "Afternoon of a Faun," Janetfan! I had copied it but got so absorbed in looking at it that I forgot to paste.

Yuka is the best evidence that an awards-packed resume isn't the only evidence of a great skater. She's on a lot of people's favorites list, and the only international gold she ever won as an eligible skater was that single World championship in 1994. She popped a jump in "her" Olympics and came in something like fifth, after Baiul, Kerrigan, and Chen Lu. But she's magnificent: beautiful posture (always reminds me of Dorothy Hamill), wonderful edges, fluid style, and the most wonderful temperament: when she skates, it's as if the sun has just come out. (Not someone I could ever imagine doing Carmen!) I'm always amused to watch her with her husband, Jason Dunjen (the man sitting next to her at the end of that clip, for those who don't know her). When he competed with Kyoko Ina, he looked as if he didn't know what an emotion was. Never cracked a smile. Since he's been with Yuka, he looks happy all the time.

Yuka's one reason I never evaluate the "greatness" of Kwan, Kim, or Mao in terms of who's got more points, who's got more 6.0's, who's got more World medals, who's got the OGM. All three of those ladies are obviously prodigiously gifted and are winners of many well-deserved "decorations." But if you keep an eye only on that, you miss out on the magic. Believe me, years from now, it's not going to be the list of statistics that lingers in your mind. It will be the music, and what these ladies do with it.

MFarone · Jun 10, 2010

Just watched Yuka's Afternoon of a Faun and can't believe how beautiful that was. She's got great edges, wonderful flow, wonderful posture and I just love how gracefully she uses her arms. What a great program.

Figga · Jun 10, 2010

janetfan said:
Some interesting replies and comparisons on this thread.

I think watching these two programs shows both skaters have passion and a very strong presense on the ice.

What about the difference in scoring systems they were skating under? Does it make a difference - and if so how much?

Looking back at 17 year old Sasha's 2002 Olympic skate to Carmen:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYUbEVvTC2E&feature=related

and then at 16 year old Mirai's 2010 Carmen do we see much difference in the presentation style?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rJX0_QqCTE

as Layfan points out, Sasha seems more refined but i like Mirai's speed/energy and she has a great looking 2A that covers a good distance

The Kween and the Queen

jenaj

brianjyw

HalfTriple

Match Penalty

janetfan

Match Penalty

OS

Sedated by Modonium

Layfan

Layfan

janetfan

Match Penalty

Lilith11

Layfan

princess9

Olympia

Layfan

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll

prettykeys

OS

Sedated by Modonium

janetfan

Match Penalty

Olympia

MFarone

Figga

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