The Kween and the Queen | Page 5 | Golden Skate

The Kween and the Queen

princess9

On the Ice
Joined
May 1, 2010
I watched Kwan's 1998 Nationals LP of Lyra Angelica and was really amazed at the number of spectators in the arena cheering for her.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okPRcajUQrM

On the other hand, there were only handful of spectators (probably most of them might have been family members of stakers) outside the link when Yuna peformed at 2006 Nationals.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFymHZ5sjmY

If a tree falls in the forest and no one hears does it still make a sound? It really doesn't matter the size of an audience at a competition. The skaters do their best and most top skaters practice like it is a competition. Champions are made on lonely practice ice through thousands of hours without cheering fans. Now there are infinite fans to make Kim very wealthy, but it won't change her skating skills. It is interesting to know that the phenomenon in Korea is very young. One can only imagine how many Korean girls want to be skaters. It sounds like Kim may compete another year at least and make many happy, I'm sure.

Michelle is the "idol" of many skaters because she is so consistent, that consistency is un rivaled. She won a great deal. I don't see much similarity in their styles but both were considered more athletic than artistic, at least when they began.

Michelle had all those spectators in 98 because she started as a senior skater at age 12. So she was so well known by 98. Michelle came on the scene the year Nancy Kerrigan was attacked at Nationals. Huge viewership resulted for figureskating at the Olympics. As the USA team alternate and all the fluff pieces Michelle became famous at 12. She was of course a little girl at the time and benefitted from a "perfect storm." She was talented. All the big names Kerrigan, Baiul, and Harding left (one way or the other) the sport after 1994. Kwan had a wide open door as well as millions of new fans watching all the TV shows. She had a great coach, great family and was very lucky regarding injuries over her career. Also, after she lost in Nagano by a small margin, she was very humble and said the right things, gaining favor with many. Then Tara left and she was the sole star of USFS again. We Americans watched her grow up from a talented very juniorish skater to a polished female champion. Believe it or not, there were some who wished her to retire, feeling she stayed two long.
 

YunaBliss

On the Ice
Joined
May 11, 2010
On the subject of Queen Yuna, to be honest, I never knew the story of her and Mao before the Olympics, but I remember my first impression of her was her cool headedness and spectacular skates that went beyond my expectations and then exceeded them. I had also been amazed by this year's overall ladies standard which started my youtubing catching up on past few years in figure skating. So may be that is why I don't feel as much or particular affinity or loyalty to any particular skaters as many of the forum members do.

Other than the spectacular 3:3 jumps, speed and flows, I sensed Yuna played the ice like a fine instrument. Her phrasing of the elements almost at times mirroring bars of music scores to how she articulate her body movements and interpret the accents (could be due to choreography), her quiet moments, little touches here and there before the crescendos to fortissimos, then releases then rifts etc. She appeared almost super human like and has almost an attitude of indifference (some what different from Michelle Kwan), that is until right at the end of her FS where she finally teared up and revealed her human fragility. I must say, at that moment it kinda killed me and left shaken and wanting more.

How is it not possible to empathize and understood her if you are a lover of arts. If one were able to experience even a fraction of perfection at the peak/the highs in art/music even for a few moments, the experience itself, the artist within is surely moved, elevated, and never mind the release of pressure and the competition side of things. I can only imagine the amount of practice it took, and the many physical and mental traumas it’d takes to deliver something like this, in the way it did. To anyone who has ever experienced practicing or performing, or have been moved by a piece of music in a live concert, a movie, a theatre play, or even reading a story, you should know what I mean.

However, what cemented me as a serious fan, was when I youtubed her WC2009 Danse Macabre that I believe is her best performance up to date. Never had I imagine a ladies champion can kick *** on ice *hard* just like the men, yet still remain elegant, mysterious, poised and feminine at the same time. The speed, the precision, the height, the length of the jumps, it was as if darkness had met the light but not convoluted as if she was possessed and became almost spirit like. It was utterly spectacular, puzzling and left me stunned for days. So that was my (re)newbie ding dong moment, and I thought I’d share. :)

Great post!!

I agree that the single most impressive performance by Yuna may have been 2009 WC Danse Macabre - although Yuna's Olympics LP will always remain as my personal favorite.

Just check out her trademark jump combo at 2009 WC:

http://i865.photobucket.com/albums/ab219/YunaBliss/03.gif

I challenge anyone to show me a more impressive jump than this.
 

Robeye

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
On the subject of Queen Yuna, to be honest, I never knew the story of her and Mao before the Olympics, but I remember my first impression of her was her cool headedness and spectacular skates that went beyond my expectations and then exceeded them. I had also been amazed by this year's overall ladies standard which started my youtubing catching up on past few years in figure skating. So may be that is why I don't feel as much or particular affinity or loyalty to any particular skaters as many of the forum members do.

Other than the spectacular 3:3 jumps, speed and flows, I sensed Yuna played the ice like a fine instrument. Her phrasing of the elements almost at times mirroring bars of music scores to how she articulate her body movements and interpret the accents (could be due to choreography), her quiet moments, little touches here and there before the crescendos to fortissimos, then releases then rifts etc. She appeared almost super human like and has almost an attitude of indifference (some what different from Michelle Kwan), that is until right at the end of her FS where she finally teared up and revealed her human fragility. I must say, at that moment it kinda killed me and left shaken and wanting more.

How is it not possible to empathize and understood her if you are a lover of arts. If one were able to experience even a fraction of perfection at the peak/the highs in art/music even for a few moments, the experience itself, the artist within is surely moved, elevated, and never mind the release of pressure and the competition side of things. I can only imagine the amount of practice it took, and the many physical and mental traumas it’d takes to deliver something like this, in the way it did. To anyone who has ever experienced practicing or performing, or have been moved by a piece of music in a live concert, a movie, a theatre play, or even reading a story, you should know what I mean.

However, what cemented me as a serious fan, was when I youtubed her WC2009 Danse Macabre that I believe is her best performance up to date. Never had I imagine a ladies champion can kick *** on ice *hard* just like the men, yet still remain elegant, mysterious, poised and feminine at the same time. The speed, the precision, the height, the length of the jumps, it was as if darkness had met the light but not convoluted as if she was possessed and became almost spirit like. It was utterly spectacular, puzzling and left me stunned for days. So that was my (re)newbie ding dong moment, and I thought I’d share. :)

Really excellent post. You've put your finger (or maybe your whole palmprint) on why Yuna's artistry is spoken of in hushed, almost unbelieving tones by such discerning skate critics as Sonia Bianchetti. Balletic lines are only a small portion of what goes into the artistic aspect of skating; musicality (including rhythm and "phrasing", as you elegantly put it :) ), sense of pace, subtlety and expressiveness of movement and demeanor, are the areas in which Yuna is unmatched by any other skater today.

Ah, Danse Macabre at 2009 Worlds. I went into similar emotional gyrations when I saw that performance. Yuna's skate was so morbid and fierce, yet heartbreakingly beautiful. I was like Frodo watching Galadriel doing her "I could be the new goddess" fantasy. All I could do was tremble and prostrate myself :bow:.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
YuNa's jumps are the very best today, and I love the flow she gets out of them. However, here are some equally impressive jumps:

Midori Ito
Triple axel triple toe loop
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3e9g_5e52mk&NR=1

Midori Ito
Double loop triple loop
Today you don't see anyone doing a triple loop as a second jump because it is so easy to underrotate it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Orxxwvldw5A&feature=fvw

Shizuka Arikawa
3t3t2t2t2t and lots more 2ts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6csWtMQhSY&feature=related
 

dlgpffps

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 14, 2009

Haha YES I love that video of Shizuka! I was looking for it, thank you. I'm able to watch Youtube videos again (in China, where it's blocked. I found a proxy the other day), and I'm going through a lot of the old posts (esp. those on the top ten lists) to watch the many spectacular performances I missed out on since the government deemed the video network subversive. I would include Harding's jumps to your list. Some of Julia Sebestyen's 3Lzs and Caroline Kostner's jumps (so crisp and clean in their prime) also make my list.

And os168 what a way of articulating Yu-na's talent. My all-time favorite Yu-na skate will always be Danse Macabre WC 09 (for all the reasons you have mentioned). The intricate details make me watch it over and over again. Every movement is in sync with the music. The particular position of the head, the angle of her arms, the skating edges that top off her upper body movement -- everything works together.

She combines what I love most from the man and lady skaters (except superhuman flexibility;)).
 

princess9

On the Ice
Joined
May 1, 2010
I liked Danse Macabre and would like to see her revisit it in a few years to see how she approaches it. But I thought her Olympic year programs were the best fit so far and showcased her strength. As Doris points out, there are some amazing female jumpers. Yu-Na seems to beat most in terms of the ice coverage of her 3x3. She covers half the rink. Someone on another thread characterized her skating as sleek like a greyhound. I found that interesting. The word panther comes to mind when I see the speed and the approach. The one thing about speedy skating is that positions are not always finished. We saw this with Irina, too, tho Kim I find to be a more elegant skater. Irina's triples had a lot of spring. She answered the question, as Button would say, where is the jump in that jump? Kim has huge jumps, no debate there.

I do like to see skaters have slower sections to their skating as that is where we see the lines and control.
 
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janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
What on earth is a "4-shaped-leg"?

It is something like the shape of a triangle choke in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu - so my advice is don't mess with little Midori ;)

Here is BJJ World champion Kyra Gracie showing a triangle choke:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/gracieva/1163529444/

Those who follow MMA know the Gracie name - Kyra is the greatgrandaugher of Carlos Gracie, and the niece of Renzo Gracie. I saw her train once in New York and she is totally awesome.

She is a one of the few girls in the Gracie family to have earned a blackbelt in BJJ.
And pretty hot too

http://i556.photobucket.com/albums/ss6/NoApologies7/KyraGracie2.jpg
 
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Layfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
I liked Danse Macabre and would like to see her revisit it in a few years to see how she approaches it. But I thought her Olympic year programs were the best fit so far and showcased her strength. As Doris points out, there are some amazing female jumpers. Yu-Na seems to beat most in terms of the ice coverage of her 3x3. She covers half the rink. Someone on another thread characterized her skating as sleek like a greyhound. I found that interesting. The word panther comes to mind when I see the speed and the approach. The one thing about speedy skating is that positions are not always finished. We saw this with Irina, too, tho Kim I find to be a more elegant skater. Irina's triples had a lot of spring. She answered the question, as Button would say, where is the jump in that jump? Kim has huge jumps, no debate there.

I do like to see skaters have slower sections to their skating as that is where we see the lines and control.

I've been thinking about that more recently. I wonder if we'll every see Yuna display the kind of one-foot edge work that Michelle Kwan showed off in East of Eden or Fields of Gold... Mathman was saying he thinks it's a lost art. Is it that Yuna isn't as good at that sort of thing or is it COP's fault?

I re-watched her 2009 LP to see if I could see a hint of that. Well, not really. Still, the performance gave me goosebumps. I think this time around I appreciated it more than ever. It's like I've always said, Yuna is like another instrument in the music.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-xwx-Z3ijc

I think polished lines are a different question. It's too bad that Yuna can't achieve a perfect lines (even though Scott Hamilton is always raving about her perfect positions for some reason.) But I think it's more to do with her body and she pushes it as much as she's able to.

For me Michelle Kwan+Kim Yuna+Sasha Cohen: that would make the perfect skater. :biggrin:

Michelle: amazing edging, confidence, consistency and greatest ice presence ever.
Kim: perfect jump technique, speed, confidence and exquisite musicality.
Sasha: Best lines, posture and positions I've ever seen. And best forward scratch spin in how long?
 

OS

Sedated by Modonium
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
(Sorry this post is a bit long, it s a comparison/appreciation between Yuna’s WC Danse and OGM FS. It ended up so long just because I couldn't stop myself once I got into the 'inspired zone'. Apologies if any points has been covered by the forum already, I am new to this so I guess I am writing this for myself, and all feedback are welcomed.)

I might not be as well versed as most here recounting figure skating history, but i am well aware that Ito is known as the best jumper of all time and probably ever because her amazing 3A and the full sets of triples (Pop Trivia: In Chinese forums Ito’s nickname is called ‘Grandma Ito’, as a sign of respect as the most senior and respected female in the family; and Mao’s nick name is ‘Cat’ because the pronunciation of her English name is same as the word ‘Cat’ in Mandarin. Perhaps it also has to do with her feline supple quality on ice as well. Her name makes her sounding lovable, because well, who doesn’t like a cute cat or a ‘kitten’ esp given her off ice image fits it well). Shizuka is obviously known for her insane Inner Bauer despite her height which is tall for a skater. They are all best at their elements, but for me Yuna is something new, she is a complete package, similar to Michelle was of her era, the consistent, the artistry, a performances that they truly 'own' because it was told in their unique and very individual style.

It is hard to pinpoint Yuna’s best quality as there are many. She may not be the most flexible and point her toes, or have straightest back ballet posture, but she more than make up for it with practice so she was at least be able to match amongst the best in GOE scores. Her own arson of signatures moves, like 3:3, spread eagle / inner bauer onto a 3T or 2A and of course her lay back camel spins can not be repeated by the current sets of Ladies. Mirai tried but failed, she is young and will learn and improve. However you can’t discount Yuna’s innate talent because she was also one of the very few in history that were able join all the transitional together as natural as breathing on ice.

Her efforts at best are natural and invisible; it doesn’t feel like she’s even ‘trying’. This is a huge difference compared to other skaters which you can always tell they are thinking and preparing for whatever big jump next. She can be both fire and/or ice, dark and/or light, depends on whatever the piece is needed. Although she doesn’t have the longevity (yet) with the full breadth and range of performances to consider fully versatile yet, the few she was able perform at her best, they stood head and shoulders amongst the greats. The best contrast can be shown the essence she was able to deliver between her WC Danse and her OGM Gershwin FS.

Her Dance Macabre I’d say is about displaying athleticism and physical prowess while trying to defy the boundaries of physics and gravity in Ladies skating. To do the performance, she must be courageous and fierce to launch herself at maximum warp speed with complete abandonment and any visible efforts of human vulnerability. A spirit has over taken over her body, and put it on autopilot without the Hollywood special effects for 2.5 mins on acid. Other than those ridiculous jumps, look at how her body spun into a posture, then her head follows, spun then freezes, spuns and then freezes. It was as her body was having a life of its own, and her human constricts are merely slowly trying to catch up. It was almost supernatural and defies logic.

Her Gershwin number on the other hand is the exact opposite. It is all about light and serenity. A masterful display of ‘control’ and ‘fluidity’. It was far from a character piece like everyone else’s program. IMHO it feels like a summation of Yuna’s own human accomplishments in skating. The Olympics is the climax of her journey. Her FS is her commentary on the purity of ice skating, and Gershwin was merely a backdrop complimenting her reflection and contemplation on display.

It was as she is taking the judges on walk in central park - nice and easy – while slowly revealing her full sets of repertoires. Just count the number of times she addressed the judges with a different gazes in between each major element. Look for her full sets of definitive expressions and eye contacts.

It was as if she is asking

“Look what I can do.” “Look at what I have become.” “Are you impressed?” “Are you delighted?” “Did you like that?” “Have you seen better? etc

Through out the piece, there were clear junctures that she was able to demonstrate finesse, sophistication, and refinement. It was a case of less is more, quality over quantity. It was decisively elegant, simple, flirty, yet vulnerable and feminine. When she drops her arm, it wasn’t just about letting it fall and onto the next transition, but it is about fine-tuning the speed and the position it falls and how it accentuate to Gershwin’s notes, and punctuate the breaks. At times there implied some invisible elasticity in the other direction holding her upper body on to the next position, but the body is fighting against the motion as it wishes to enjoy ‘the moment’ …just a bit longer while her blade floats across the ice light, fast and dainty.

It was a nice contrast to her Bond program that was designed to be a populist piece, a fan service designed for the Olympics world wide audience, to be the ultimate crowd pleaser. And it worked. Her signature ending poses is famous and even copied by the entire Japanese Team including Mao during their break time.

But oh my, her Gershwin in contrast was so sophisticated it felt somewhat elitist it is almost untouchable.

It felt to truly appreciate it, or earn to appreciate it, you’d have to be some fine sophisticated skinny ladies in full evening Chanel cocktail dresses, adorned with a tres tres chic diamond necklaces which they'd spun around their little finger carelessly, while the other hand holding an ice cold matini peering out from their Manhattan penthouse, preferably with a view overlooking Central park from the upper east side. Her feet dangling a Louboutin leaning against the balcony, while sipping their ice cold drink enjoying a quiet moment of contemplation with a cool glee.
 
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princess9

On the Ice
Joined
May 1, 2010
I've been thinking about that more recently. I wonder if we'll every see Yuna display the kind of one-foot edge work that Michelle Kwan showed off in East of Eden or Fields of Gold... Mathman was saying he thinks it's a lost art. Is it that Yuna isn't as good at that sort of thing or is it COP's fault?

I re-watched her 2009 LP to see if I could see a hint of that. Well, not really. Still, the performance gave me goosebumps. I think this time around I appreciated it more than ever. It's like I've always said, Yuna is like another instrument in the music.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-xwx-Z3ijc

I think polished lines are a different question. It's too bad that Yuna can't achieve a perfect lines (even though Scott Hamilton is always raving about her perfect positions for some reason.) But I think it's more to do with her body and she pushes it as much as she's able to.

For me Michelle Kwan+Kim Yuna+Sasha Cohen: that would make the perfect skater. :biggrin:

Michelle: amazing edging, confidence, consistency and greatest ice presence ever.
Kim: perfect jump technique, speed, confidence and exquisite musicality.
Sasha: Best lines, posture and positions I've ever seen. And best forward scratch spin in how long?

Yes, all true, I think. Scott as a commentator brings much excitement. I like him, but he gushes and he wants to be very positive and complimentary with most skaters. The problem is he does a poor job of explaining what we are seeing technically. Skating when it was covered in years past would have these little tutorials I miss explaining different jumps and techniques.

Still he's fun. Paul Wylie gives more info but not as fun. Scott kind of skates through the program with a skater. He's very emotional. People like that about him.

I smile every time I see your posts as Nagasu is so adorable. Love that avatar.

Funny you mentioned East of Eden. What do you think of the performances when she was young then later in her career? That's what I was thinking about when I posted about Danse and how different it might look a few years down. Michelle matured early artistically speaking.

I think CoP obviously needs to be changed a lot. I agree with most of what Sonia Bianchetti feels about it. But there are certainly experts on this board, like Mathman. For those that like statistics and counting and math complexity its a great subject. One can't blame CoP for any skater's shortcomings but it does seem to reward the technical side of the sport more heavily.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
os168 said:
“Look what I can do.” “Look at what I have become.” “Are you impressed?” “Are you delighted?” “Did you like that?” “Have you seen better?" etc.

:agree: :love: I like that description as much as I lked the program! :yes:
 
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