The Kween and the Queen | Page 8 | Golden Skate

The Kween and the Queen

rondoboy

Rinkside
Joined
May 5, 2010
Heck, yeah! I'm from Detroit, and the Detroit Pistons had a guy named Joe Dumars who had Michael in his pocket. Here's Joe (number 4) on the cover of Sports illustrated in 1990.

http://www.rayimre.com/d/940-2/Joe+Dumars+11-6-89.JPG

We tore up Jordan and the Chicago Bulls in the playoffs on the way to the 1989 and 1990 NBA championships.

Then in 1991 those cheating NBA referees got together with the crooked politicians in the NBA commissioners office -- personally, I think the Chicago mob made them an offer they couldn't refuse -- so they let Michael win in 1991. :cool:

I know I am a bit late to comment on this, but I just could not regist as I was a Joe fan:biggrin:

Thad said... Hey, YunaBliss, you can worship Yuna as much as you want, but PLEASE do not speak of her in a class of MJ.
She is not there yet. Also, as great as Jordan is as a basketball player, any basketball fan knows there was a "Jordan Rule":bang:
 

YunaBliss

On the Ice
Joined
May 11, 2010
And then it was the Olympic. What can I say about her performance. I think OS168 aleady put amazing words about the progams. I kept about 10 different version of her Olympic Lp and just like NBC said “the result is yours forever, but the skate is something truly is the most memorable things about the olympic experience.” I think I will remember her Olympic performance

IOC President Jacque Rogge would agree with you: He said "Watching Kim Yu-Na dominate like she did touched me in away that I haven't been touched since Torvill and Dean in Sarajevo." ^^
 

rtureck

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Comparing Michlle with Yuna???? They are totally different skater. I know I am very biased about Michelle. But to me, Michelle can not be compared with anyone. She is not flexible like some of the current skaters, but I was so impressed when she opened up to go into her spiral position. Michelle was the most charismatic skater I have ever seen. I really do not know what it was, but when she skated I felt shiver on my back. She put 1000 percents effort everytime she skates. I really miss that time when both Sasha and Michelle were competing. I just do not feel that kind of excitement and emotion when I look at Yuna or any other current skaters competing.

Prokofiev, part of the reason I stayed away from this thread is for me there is only one queen the Kween

I am glad Michelle and KYN seem to be fond of each other.

Now about comparing kyn to MJ. I agree with rondo that kyn is not the MJ of skating. Maybe she has the potential if she sticks around for at least another 4 - 8yrs. MJ loved the game so much that he competed until someone beat him off the tops. I seriously doubted kyn will stay and let the next generation skater(s) beat her. It has not been in the figure skating tradition. Most OGM choose to retire instead of sticking around and compete until the next great one beat them. Kat's return to olys in 1994 was an exception.
 
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PROKOFIEV

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 1, 2009
Prokofiev, part of the reason I stayed away from this thread is for me there is only one queen the Kween

I am glad Michelle and KYN seem to be fond of each other.

Now about comparing kyn to MJ. I agree with rondo that kyn is not the MJ of skating. Maybe she has the potential if she sticks around for at least another 4 - 8yrs. MJ loved the game so much that he competed until someone beat him off the tops. I seriously doubted kyn will stay and let the next generation skater(s) beat her. It has not been in the figure skating tradition. Most OGM choose to retire instead of sticking around and compete until the next great one beat them. Kat's return to olys in 1994 was an exception.

You are right, rtureck. :agree:THERE IS ONLY ONE QUEEN AND THAT IS KWEEN!!!!!!! :bow:
I really admire Kat for that, too.
 

brownfox

On the Ice
Joined
May 5, 2010
Prokofiev, part of the reason I stayed away from this thread is for me there is only one queen the Kween

I am glad Michelle and KYN seem to be fond of each other.

Now about comparing kyn to MJ. I agree with rondo that kyn is not the MJ of skating. Maybe she has the potential if she sticks around for at least another 4 - 8yrs. MJ loved the game so much that he competed until someone beat him off the tops. I seriously doubted kyn will stay and let the next generation skater(s) beat her. It has not been in the figure skating tradition. Most OGM choose to retire instead of sticking around and compete until the next great one beat them. Kat's return to olys in 1994 was an exception.

Are we talking about Michael Jordan? Remember he retired from 1994 and 1995. He played again because baseball didn't work for him, plus his father's death. Jordan wasn't perfect. He depended on Jackson's coaching ability, Pippen, and the rest of the team. He had to face the Bad Boys of Detroit before he became a champion. Some say he was an average passer and a shooter.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
^^^
Good post. Comparisons of skaters can not be made based on 1 season's showing. I think comparisons can only be made on their Bodies of Work.

With the eminence of super Asian skaters, there is a 'push' to make them fit in with the past greats. Not easy, imo. It takes time, but with Mao and Yuna (Dai, too) it will come before Sochi.
 

jenaj

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 17, 2003
Country
United-States
Are we talking about Michael Jordan? Remember he retired from 1994 and 1995. He played again because baseball didn't work for him, plus his father's death. Jordan wasn't perfect. He depended on Jackson's coaching ability, Pippen, and the rest of the team. He had to face the Bad Boys of Detroit before he became a champion. Some say he was an average passer and a shooter.

Veering way off topic, MJ didn't need Jackson to be great. He needed him to win. Michael wanted to do it all himself. And why not? He was better than everyone else. Jackson got him to pass the ball once in a while. He made him more of a team player. That was when the Bulls started winning. And an average shooter? I don't think so. He was the best, and could do it all. Just to keep this slightly on the subject, Michelle is more like MJ than Yu Na is because she, like MJ, had no real weakness. Perhaps Michelle just never found her Phil Jackson who could guide her to Olympic gold.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
. Some say he was an average passer and a shooter.

I never heard anybody who knew much about basketball say that about MJ. :think:

Care to quote your sources ?

In a stellar career that needs no words of praise from me, when the game was on the line the ball was inevitably placed in Jordan's hands.

His last championship game he took the shot that won the game as the clock was winding down.
In the championship game that preceeded that he read the court and through a double team passed the ball off to Paxton who sank the shot that clinched the championship.

I am not a Bulls fan - but as a former b-ball player and one who has watched alot, I have never seen a player as complete or great as Jordan. If a game got testy as when the x-man McDaniel tried to rough up Pippen - it was Jordan who got in his face and backed him down.

A great player, a great leader, extremely skilled in all aspects of the game and without peer in the modern era.
 

YunaBliss

On the Ice
Joined
May 11, 2010
I disagree. I am not talking about BODIES OF WORK or LONGEVITY And neither are figure skating experts.

I am talking about the way Yuna is DOMINATING the rest of the field, including Mao. I just saw 2009 Skate America again, and Scott Hamilton noted half-jokingly that "if anybody comes within 30 points of Yuna, they should feel proud."

Such domination has been very rare in any sport, and it is clear that Yuna is in a class of her own at the moment. Just like MJ or Usain Bolt or Michael Phelps.

No one can refute Michelle Kwan's legacy, but was she so DOMINATE during her competitive career? I am not sure.
 

brownfox

On the Ice
Joined
May 5, 2010
I disagree. I am not talking about BODIES OF WORK or LONGEVITY And neither are figure skating experts.

I am talking about the way Yuna is DOMINATING the rest of the field, including Mao. I just saw 2009 Skate America again, and Scott Hamilton noted half-jokingly that "if anybody comes within 30 points of Yuna, they should feel proud."

Such domination has been very rare in any sport, and it is clear that Yuna is in a class of her own at the moment. Just like MJ or Usain Bolt or Michael Phelps.

No one can refute Michelle Kwan's legacy,. but was she so DOMINATE during her competitive career? I am not sure.

Kwan = 5 time World Champion, that showed dominance.
 

Lilith11

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 1, 2010
I disagree. I am not talking about BODIES OF WORK or LONGEVITY And neither are figure skating experts.

I am talking about the way Yuna is DOMINATING the rest of the field, including Mao. I just saw 2009 Skate America again, and Scott Hamilton noted half-jokingly that "if anybody comes within 30 points of Yuna, they should feel proud."

Such domination has been very rare in any sport, and it is clear that Yuna is in a class of her own at the moment. Just like MJ or Usain Bolt or Michael Phelps.

No one can refute Michelle Kwan's legacy, but was she so DOMINATE during her competitive career? I am not sure.

Oh dear.... YunaBliss, please take a chill pill T_T I'm a Yu-na fan, but some of your comments are way out of hand.

Yes, Michelle certainly dominated during her time MORE SO than Yu-na I'd say. She's given so many absolutely legendary performances to us that will be remembered always in figure skating; "Salome" as a 15 year old, "Lyra Angelica" in 1998, "Song of the Black Swan," "Red Violin".. the list could go on and on. Yes, Michelle did not always win gold when she skated, BUT when she did, it was in an absolutely spectacular fashion. And get this; Yu-na doesn't always win gold either -_- In fact, I do recall Mao beat her just this March... :p

MK was THE face of figure skating during her time. She defined the rules and set the standard. And yes, she dominated the field like no other, to the point that some complained that she was overshadowing everyone else too much and she wasn't giving newer skaters their time to shine :p
 

miki88

Medalist
Joined
Dec 28, 2009
Oh dear indeed. ~~~~~ In this day of age, it's rare for a ladies skater to win even two world medals, yet Michelle managed to win five of them. Enough said. :)
 

YunaBliss

On the Ice
Joined
May 11, 2010
You are still missing my point. I am talking about how Yuna wins. The point differential. The difference between her and the 2nd place, the 3rd place, and the rest of the competition.

Granted, during Kwan's reign, such point system did not exist, so we cannot compare. And I am not sure Kwan won her medals by such a large margin. In any event, I am not here to discredit Kwan.

My points is to defend the comparison to MJ I made earlier, and how certain people thought that was out of line, based on the "body of work" concept.

But what I am talking about is the degree of dominance at the present moment in time. What we are seeing with Yuna is beating the next best in the world by 6-0,6-0,6-1 (if this was tennis) or finishing a whole 1 second or more ahead (if this 100 meter dash). That is why I think comparison to someone like MJ, who was so far better than his contemporary rivals, is a valid and sensible one. But given MJ's god-like status (I am his ultimate fan myself), I understand how that could be perceived as excessive.

So I will just say, IMO, Yuna = Usain Bolt of Figure Skating. Happy? ^^
 

brownfox

On the Ice
Joined
May 5, 2010
Oh dear.... YunaBliss, please take a chill pill T_T I'm a Yu-na fan, but some of your comments are way out of hand.

Yes, Michelle certainly dominated during her time MORE SO than Yu-na I'd say. She's given so many absolutely legendary performances to us that will be remembered always in figure skating; "Salome" as a 15 year old, "Lyra Angelica" in 1998, "Song of the Black Swan," "Red Violin".. the list could go on and on. Yes, Michelle did not always win gold when she skated, BUT when she did, it was in an absolutely spectacular fashion. And get this; Yu-na doesn't always win gold either -_- In fact, I do recall Mao beat her just this March... :p

MK was THE face of figure skating during her time. She defined the rules and set the standard. And yes, she dominated the field like no other, to the point that some complained that she was overshadowing everyone else too much and she wasn't giving newer skaters their time to shine :p

I just offered him a beer to chill out. Hahah!
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
You are still missing my point. I am talking about how Yuna wins. The point differential. The difference between her and the 2nd place, the 3rd place, and the rest of the competition.

Granted, during Kwan's reign, such point system did not exist, so we cannot compare. And I am not sure Kwan won her medals by such a large margin. In any event, I am not here to discredit Kwan.

My points is to defend the comparison to MJ I made earlier, and how certain people thought that was out of line, based on the "body of work" concept.

But what I am talking about is the degree of dominance at the present moment in time. What we are seeing with Yuna is beating the next best in the world by 6-0,6-0,6-1 (if this was tennis) or finishing a whole 1 second or more ahead (if this 100 meter dash). That is why I think comparison to someone like MJ, who was so far better than his contemporary rivals, is a valid and sensible one. But given MJ's god-like status (I am his ultimate fan myself), I understand how that could be perceived as excessive.

So I will just say, IMO, Yuna = Usain Bolt of Figure Skating. Happy? ^^

I would say in all of the years I have been watching skating that Peggy Fleming was the most dominant skater I ever saw. Not only was she the best free skater of her era but she was also great at the compulsary figures. Some skating experts have noted Yuna was the most heavily favored Olympic contender since Peggy.

Carol Heiss was before my time but she was even more dominant than Peggy.

Consider that Carol won 5 consecutive WC's and an Olympic Silver and Olympic Gold medal wrapped around that. IMO Michelle, Yuna, and whover follows will never duplicate the astonishing display of dominance shown by Carol Heiss. Truthfully - I don't think another will even come close.

And let's not forget the skater whose title Yuna is borrowing - the original and greatest Queen of the Ice - Sonja Heinie. Consider Sonja's 3 OGM's and 9 WC's ........mind boggling. :)
 

YunaBliss

On the Ice
Joined
May 11, 2010
I would say in all of the years I have been watching skating that Peggy Fleming was the most dominant skater I ever saw. Not only was she the best free skater of her era but she was also great at the compulsary figures. Some skating experts have noted Yuna was the most heavily favored Olympic contender since Peggy.

Carol Heiss was before my time but she was even more dominant than Peggy.

Consider that Carol won 5 consecutive WC's and an Olympic Silver and Olympic Gold medal wrapped around that. IMO Michelle, Yuna, and whover follows will never duplicate the astonishing display of dominance shown by Carol Heiss. Truthfully - I don't think another will even come close.

And let's not forget the skater whose title Yuna is borrowing - the original and greatest Queen of the Ice - Sonja Heinie. Consider Sonja's 3 OGM's and 9 WC's ........mind boggling. :)

Haha. Three skaters who, coincidentally, are in the same bracket as Yuna in USFSA's "greatest ever" poll. (Talk about a "Group of Death"!)

But I won't even try to argue with you there. It's like in college basketball (my favorite sport until figure skating became my No.1 passion) - every time I say Coach K is the best coach of all time, someone inevitably mentions John Wooden - and his 10 national championships. ^^;
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
janetfan said:
And let's not forget the skater whose title Yuna is borrowing - the original and greatest Queen of the Ice - Sonja Heinie. Consider Sonja's 3 OGM's and 9 WC's ........mind boggling.
It is, however, not so easy to evaluate the strength of the competition when those glorious skaters of yesteryear were rattling off all those World Championships. In Sonia Henie's first world championship (1927), for instance, there were only four entries, two Norwegians and two German/Austrians. There were five judges -- three from Norway, one from Germany and one from Austria. Lo and behold, the Swedish skater (Henie) won and the Ausrtrian (Szabo, who herself won five Worlds) was second.

In 1929 there were 6 entries, Sonia Henie from Norway, four Austrians, and one Belgian.

Ulrich Salchow's record of ten World Championships also will never be matched. But again, in 1901 there were only 2 entries, Salchow (Sweden) and Fuchs (Austrian). The judging panel comprised 4 Swedes, 2 British and 1 German.

The accomplishments of modern skaters came, IMHO, against longer odds.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
It is, however, not so easy to evaluate the strength of the competition when those glorious skaters of yesteryear were rattling off all those World Championships. In Sonia Henie's first world championship (1927), for instance, there were only four entries, two Norwegians and two German/Austrians. There were five judges -- three from Norway, one from Germany and one from Austria. Lo and behold, the Swedish skater (Henie) won and the Ausrtrian (Szabo, who herself won five Worlds) was second.

In 1929 there were 6 entries, Sonia Henie from Norway, four Austrians, and one Belgian.

Ulrich Salchow's record of ten World Championships also will never be matched. But again, in 1901 there were only 2 entries, Salchow (Sweden) and Fuchs (Austrian). The judging panel comprised 4 Swedes, 2 British and 1 German.

The accomplishments of modern skaters came, IMHO, against longer odds.

Good points - but my real focus was on Carol Heiss. Can you explain away her "dominance" as easily?
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Good points - but my real focus was on Carol Heiss. Can you explain away her "dominance" as easily?

I am not sure. The question is the quality of the competition.

On the men's side, in the 1950s (the world-wide "Pax America," after World War II and before Russia got the atom bomb), figure skating in Europe was in a shambles. The only competition U.S. men faced was each other. If you win the U.S. championship, you win worlds automatically. (From 1951 to 1958 U.S. men won both gold and silver at worlds, and swept the podium in 1952, 1955, and 1956.)

For the ladies, it is not so clear. Carol Heiss' main international rival in the latter part of her career was Sophie Dijkstra (1964 Olympic champion). Dijkstra was a whiz at figures. Her free skating was athletic but not as good as Heiss'. Other international competitors were skaters like Ingrid Wendl, Hanna Walter and Ina Bauer(!)

By the way, Carol Heiss was the first famous skater i ever saw perform (in the Ice Capades), and I thought she was amazing. I think she would have been at least as famous as Peggy Fleming if she had come along just a few years later, when televised sports became popular.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
I am not sure. The question is the quality of the competition.

On the men's side, in the 1950s (the world-wide "Pax America," after World War II and before Russia got the atom bomb), figure skating in Europe was in a shambles. The only competition U.S. men faced was each other. If you win the U.S. championship, you win worlds automatically. (From 1951 to 1958 U.S. men won both gold and silver at worlds, and swept the podium in 1952, 1955, and 1956.)

For the ladies, it is not so clear. Carol Heiss' main international rival in the latter part of her career was Sophie Dijkstra (1964 Olympic champion). Dijkstra was a whiz at figures. Her free skating was athletic but not as good as Heiss'. Other international competitors were skaters like Ingrid Wendl, Hanna Walter and Ina Bauer(!)

By the way, Carol Heiss was the first famous skater i ever saw perform (in the Ice Capades), and I thought she was amazing. I think she would have been at least as famous as Peggy Fleming if she had come along just a few years later, when televised sports became popular.

Thanks for such an interesting reply. If not for Tenley Albight - Carol would have won back to back OGM's and more WC's. Most think had Carol continued she could have won another OGM in 1964.

It was not quite as easy as you presented it - there were serious competitors, especially from the Canadians. Obviously the second world war and the distruption it cause in all of European societal and cultural things had a major impact. But Button was a phenom - he redefined the sport as we know it. There was no European skater before - or of his era - that skated like he did and as long as the judging was fair he probably would have won.
 
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