Kim and Kwan to headline "All That Skate Summer 2010"

Blades of Passion said:

So, even taking Mao Asada's performance out of the equation, Yu-Na should not have won the LP at 2008 Worlds.

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Rather, Sonia Bianchetti commented that yuna's 2008-LP score was marked low.

"The fall on the Axel, however, was not Mao's only error in the elements. She had an edge call on the triple Lutz and a downgrade on the loop in the triple flip/triple loop combination. Asada had the second best technical score, by 0.01 point over Carolina Kostner, while in Program Components she was scored best, with a total of 60.57 points."

"In my opinion Yuna was by far the best skater that night. Still, her marks in the components did not reflect this. Her total score was 58.56, just 0.4 ahead of Kostner and almost 1.03 less than Asada. Had she been marked correctly, although she was only fifth in the short program, she might have won the World title."

http://www.soniabianchetti.com/writings_scandinavium.html

That is a great article by Bianchetti. I especially like how she highly criticizes Kostner's sloppy performances even though she is Italian herself.

The only thing she says that I disagree with (and have always disagreed with since the very first time I heard her opinion) is the subject we're talking about now - the Ladies Long Program, LOL. Bianchetti didn't examine Nakano's performance at all. She simply said "two of her jumps were downgraded" and then moved on as if Nakano didn't exist. Seeing as Nakano was the 3rd ranked Japanese skater going into the competition, I feel that both she and the judges didn't really feel the need to give Nakano proper credit. Although Bianchetti's opinions are far better than many ISU judges I've spoken to, she still does get a little bogged down in the politics at times when it comes to analyzing the quality of performances.

Nakano's performance was excellent and, again, one of the jump downgrades she received was totally inaccurate and the other downgrade she received was far too harsh. Bianchetti also states that Yu-Na made "a minor mistake" on her Salchow when in fact THAT jump was underrotated. Yu-Na barely got off the ice on the takeoff and came down short of rotation as a result, which is what caused the noticeable problem on the landing.

Now, in comparison to Mao, she also kind of writes Mao off because of her bad slip on the opening Axel, whereas when Yu-Na completely popped one of her Lutzes (which was nearly as bad of a mistake as the one Mao made) Bianchetti just regards it as a "minor mistake". That's not an accurate assessment. This is what the technical content of their programs looks like in a direction comparison:

Mao landed 5 Triples, 1 underrotated Triple, and 2 Double Axels.

Yu-Na landed 4 Triples, 1 underrotated Triple, and 3 Double Axels.

So, actually, Mao's technical content was a little better than Yu-Na's.

In terms of performance I would have Yu-Na ahead of Mao, but only slightly. It wasn't Yu-Na's best performance of the program, where's Mao's performance of her program was her most inspired of the season. The huge miss on her 3Axel attempt at the beginning of the program created a spark within her and she had excellent speed, attack, and expression throughout the rest of the program. Given that Mao had higher technical content, I would place her slightly ahead of Yu-Na in the LP.

I definitely see the argument for Yu-Na placing ahead of Asada in the LP but overall, even if you give Yu-Na the edge in that phase, there's no way she should have won the competition. She fell in the SP and Asada skated a perfect SP.

Yukari skated better than Yu-Na in the SP as well and her LP was flawless. Yes, the Triple Axel was underrotated, but the landing was completely clean. It was still a solid jump and much more worthwhile than a simple Double Axel (and she didn't even get credit for a Double Axel with the way the scoring system worked at the time).

All 3 Ladies were great in the LP and pretty much on the same level (even if my personal preference is 1. Nakano, 2. Asada, 3. Yu-Na, when forced to split hairs). The Short Program definitely factors into the overall result. Mao Asada was by far the best in the SP, which is why I say she deserves to win overall despite Nakano perhaps being slightly better in the LP. Yu-Na had the big mistake in the SP, so 3rd is correct for her.

Whichever the order, though, those 3 Ladies definitely deserved to be on the podium. Carolina Kostner winning the Silver medal was a joke. BTW, just as Yu-Na did on her 3Sal, Kostner also got away with an underrotated jump that didn't get downgraded by the tech panel (the 3Toe in her 2Axel-3Toe combination). It's kind of sad how competitions just come down to who randomly gets their jumps downgraded.

For the upcoming season I'm very happy that underrotations on jumps are going to be properly scored, although the downside is that ISU completely screwed up the table of values on the GOE grades. So even though the mistake of underrotating a jump is now graded more fairly, skating really messy programs like Carolina Kostner did and making mistakes on fully rotated jumps will still get you a lot of points. Very disappointing. ISU simply can't do anything correctly, it seems. They fix one problem but then make another problem worse.

Also, I have to address another topic I never got to:

That post on the last page (#238) had a lot of meat to it, YunaBliss, thank you!!! FYI, I believe overall Yu-Na has always placed correctly at every competition she has entered in her career. There are some points to be made still about what you said, though:

YunaBliss said:

Even with the fall and the popped double axel at the end (two easiest jumps in her program), Yuna still perfectly executed all of her difficult jumps, including the last triple lutz, which she often misses out on when she is tired, and objectively, as her score indicated, it was one of her better performances of Gershwin.

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Using a skater's score or placement by the judges is pretty much never a valid argument for analyzing a performance. It's like saying Reese Witherspoon is a better actress then Julianne Moore because the former has won an Oscar and the latter has not. *shudder*

Yu-Na's level of performance at 2010 Worlds was her worst of the season. Her speed and edge quality in comparison to other competitions was lower and she lacked excitement in her facial expressions. When she fell on the Salchow it wasn't just a quick fall, she took a lot of time to get back up and then just stood there for several seconds after she picked herself off the ice. It was extremely detrimental to the flow of the program. And then completely popping the axel at the end and kind of ho-humming her way into the final combination spin, that too detracted from the program.

YunaBliss said:

Regarding her 1st place finish in LP, I thought it validated the fact that Yuna held superior "intangible" qualities over Mao - i.e. artistry and better designed program - as far as 2009-2010 season is concerned. Yuna with two mistakes prevailing over Mao with one downgrade by a slight margin sounds just right to me, especially considering the point differential between the two at the Olympics.

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The jump shouldn't have been downgraded, though. That's the problem. Here is a good video you might want to check out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9O6lmnzWw-8

Yu-Na Kim also received an unfair downgrade at 2010 Worlds. Her 3Flip in the short program was downgraded, but the rotation was not more than 1/4 short. Her problem with that jump was just that she landed on the inside edge of the blade. Yu-Na was placed 7th in the SP for what was definitely her worst performance ever in a Short Program, but I actually would have had her 4th despite all the flaws. That Flip didn't deserve to be downgraded, she executed a beautiful 3Lutz-3Toe combination, and so many other competitors had problems with their programs as well.

Going back to what you said though, "Yuna with two mistakes prevailing over Mao with one downgrade by a slight margin is correct", even if one of Mao's Triple Axles in the LP deserved to be downgraded, do you really feel it's fair that an excellent 3Axel attempt which had a solid one-foot landing should be worth 5 points less simply because it was a couple degrees short of rotation? That amount of point loss is just as high, or even higher, than falling on an element (or completely popping a Double Axel into nothing at all, as Yu-Na did). It's simply not accurate. Which is why the rule has FINALLY been changed for the upcoming season.

I think the reason she was marked down in PCS was because of her flawed short program. The same thing happened at 2007 GPF but in reverse. Mao had a nearly clean skate but was marked down in PCS compared to Yuna who had a popped jump. This was probably due to the fact that Mao messed up her short program. Impressions count for a lot in the judges' mind especially in the second mark. This is a remnant of the 6.0 system, which I am actually glad for because it will be weird for a skater to win the title even if they messed up one portion of the competition. One thing I dislike about the CoP is that it forces judges to focus and nitpick on the details to an extent that they overlook the overall impression of the performance. This factor is what caused Mao to lose the SP to Kostner in 2008 and LP to Kim in 2010. And what potentially caused Nakano a medal in 2008.

Am I in a wrong thread or what?? Why are we talking about past competitions? Who should have won? Who should have medaled? If you want to bash and whine about the past results, you can start by creating a new thread! :sheesh:

This is a thread about ALL THAT SKATE SUMMER 2010. LOL.

And because this thread is about the show itself, here's yuna and lambiel having a a great time

courtesy from spiccoli/guilia

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X11_RAb99Gk

Blades of Passion said:

Why did you start talking about 2008 when I was talking about 2010?

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Hey, you are the one who first brought up that crap here. That just pissed me off. Can you just make a thread "Let's pick on Yuna/dislike her" along with the others instead of trolling every Yuna related thread and say "she's not good at this", "she shouldn't have won this" kind of thing. That case I will have more free time to read other posts. I can go on and on saying she should've gotten a downgrade call, this was unfairly called, she cheated on that, judges got that wrong, she sucks in that, she shouldn't have won,,,and so on for days. But I just try to shut my mouth up.

Now you force me to say this. You said Yuna's salchow was underrotated, but I say Mao's 3T after 3F should definitely been downgraded. I'm afraid to add a clip here because someone will start blaming me for that. And Mao didn't skate clean short either she did in fact flutz-ed which is a cheated jump.

GoPC2018 said:

Hey, you are the one who first brought up that crap here. That just pissed me off. Can you just make a thread "Let's pick on Yuna/dislike her" along with the others instead of trolling every Yuna related thread and say "she's not good at this", "she shouldn't have won this" kind of thing. That case I will have more free time to read other posts. I can go on and on saying she should've gotten a downgrade call, this was unfairly called, she cheated on that, judges got that wrong, she sucks in that, she shouldn't have won,,,and so on for days. But I just try to shut my mouth up.

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Well first thing, this isn't a fan forum - so you are going to come across posts that you do not agree with, say bad things about your favourites, etc. Second, you always have the ignore feature to use if you can't stand someone anymore

i love to skate said:

Well first thing, this isn't a fan forum - so you are going to come across posts that you do not agree with, say bad things about your favourites, etc. Second, you always have the ignore feature to use if you can't stand someone anymore

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Do you read the title of this thread? I don't want to read those time-wasting crap here and get pissed and forced to write back when I actually expected to read some nice post-views of the show and find some links. Same goes to Yuna-news thread.

GoPC2018 said:

Do you read the title of this thread? I don't want to read those time-wasting crap here and get pissed and forced to write back when I actually expected to read some nice post-views of the show and find some links. Same goes to Yuna-news thread.

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Well you aren't forced to write back. One rule of thumb on a skating forum is that every thread (usually) will go off topic and drift away from what the thread was about. This is nothing unusual! Like I said before, if someone really bugs you that much, put them on ignore or try and ignore what they are saying:yes:

ETA: As for the show, I only watched a couple videos. I did not like Yuna's Bulletproof routine - I thought the dancing looked a little awkward and I absolutely hate that song! As for Michelle I hope I look that good when I am 30!!!

GoPC2018 said:

Do you read the title of this thread? I don't want to read those time-wasting crap here and get pissed and forced to write back when I actually expected to read some nice post-views of the show and find some links. Same goes to Yuna-news thread.

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Then do what the guidelines tell you, if there's something that you feel is going against the guidelines REPORT IT. The minute you retaliate you tie our hands and the mods have to let it go because BOTH parties are involved. Second: i love to skate just gave you ADVICE that you should TAKE. There is an ignore feature, you can put those with opposing views on the ignore and you won't have to read their posts anymore. Third: No one can FORCE you to post anything, be the bigger person and just don't give in to your frustration/anger, it doesn't get the results you want anyway.

^ Or, you could always go to the fan forums. Seriously, what is the point of doing your fanboy-gushing here and demanding non-gushers to stay out? It's a mixed skating forum...non-YuNa fans have the right to read and post in threads about YuNa here.

prettykeys said:

^ Or, you could always go to the fan forums. Seriously, what is the point of doing your fanboy-gushing here and demanding non-gushers to stay out? It's a mixed skating forum...non-YuNa fans have the right to read and post in threads about YuNa here.

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Seriously, have you seen GoPC2018 gushing? I have not. About demanding 'non-gushers' to stay out, I am not so sure that that is his/her intention. Well, I am not exactly a gusher, either.

Blades of Passion said:

Mao landed 5 Triples, 1 underrotated Triple, and 2 Double Axels.

Yu-Na landed 4 Triples, 1 underrotated Triple, and 3 Double Axels.

So, actually, Mao's technical content was a little better than Yu-Na's.

In terms of performance I would have Yu-Na ahead of Mao, but only slightly.

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You are distorting the facts, I believe.
Anyway, the results of this year's worlds are VERY problematic so if anyone is interested, look at this carefully.

http://www.isufs.org/results/wc2008/WC08_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf

The fact is
1. Yuna(64.82) : 5 Triples(1 -GOE), 5 doubles.
2. Mao(61.89) : 5 Triples(1 -GOE), 1 DGed Triple, 4 doubles(1 -GOE).
3. Carolina(61.88) : 7 Triples(4 -GOE), 4 doubles(1 -GOE)
4. Yukari(56.98) : 5 Triples, 2 DGed Triple, 4 doubles

Mao's technical content is better than Yuna? Yuna's pop'ed 3L was almost as bad as Mao's first fall? I don't agree.
As for Yukari, I think the DGed 3A seems to have been pivotal. I don't know whether it was right or not. However, what's the most ridiculous is PCS scores which seem to have decided the podium.

1. Mao 60.57
2. Yukari 59.32
3. Yuna 58.56
4. Carolina 58.52

Well, I think the technical scores are more or less acceptable. I don't agree with the PCS. Yuna should have got higher PCS like Biangetti says. She was the best that night regardless of the result. The most heartbreaking performance with injury and lingering pains, I believe. Blame me for gushing.

What interests me is what miki88 called 'the remnant of the 6.0 system.' Even if Yuna won the LP, she was 5th in SP. So I hesitate to say that she should have won.

sunny0760 said:

Seriously, have you seen GoPC2018 gushing? I have not. About demanding 'non-gushers' to stay out, I am not so sure that that is his/her intention. Well, I am not exactly a gusher, either.

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GoPC2018 said:

Yuna rocks! She can skate to any kind of music you name it. She was just breathtaking today.

I always enjoy the general atmosphere of Yuna's ice show. Skaters are awesome. Fans are awesome. And what about the fantastic surrounding digital display. Oh yeah, the main sponsor is Samsung.

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Gushing.

Not that there is anything wrong with it per se; nor was I specifically addressing GoPC2018, but rather the antagonistic and oversensitive attitude of this and certain other posters.

YunaBliss said:

I appreciate this post. But I don't buy the concept that she has yet to become "one of the greats" or that she still has things left to prove. She can continue to build on her legacy, but Yuna's historic legacy is already secured.

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The scoring records that she set during the past couple of seasons will definitely stand for some time, so yes, in that way she's made her mark. Also, the fact that she single-handedly catapulted Korea into the elite skating world, and inspired a new generation of fans and skaters there shows that her impact is not "typical". Still, IMHO, she needs to do one of two things for me to raise her from "a great current-generation skater" to "one of the all-time greats". One is to revive the pro circuit, and/or establish herself as, a highly-skilled professional skater who raises the bar and enchants audiences for years to come. I'm thinking in terms of Kristi Yamaguchi and Katarina Witt. The other thing is, like I said before, to dig deep and FIND that motivation to continue to dominate the skating world for the next 4 years, setting the bar high for the rest of the field. She doesn't even have to win everything- you can't- but at least stay in the gold-medal hunt. If you look at other sports- Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods, Williams sisters- they weren't around for just a couple of years. They had STAYING POWER, they had off-days and then rose back to the top. Even MK, Yuna's own idol- managed a 10-year competitive career in which she won the world championship 5 of those years. THAT is staying power. THAT is what makes an athlete extraordinary in my eyes. I don't have to like them personally- and many times I don't- but as a sports fan, I can at least appreciate what they bring to their respective sports.

Having lived most of my life in the U.S., and having followed U.S. sports media all my life, I would guarantee that had Yuna been an American, and with her track record over the past 4 years, and winning the gold for the U.S. in such record-breaking fashion, we would have seen countless articles and commentaries from ESPN, NBC, CBS, Wilbon, etc. (not sure he follows figure skating, but anyways) already talking about whether Yuna is "the greatest ever."

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Yes, America has an obsession with winning. And yes, many reporters like to blow things out of proportion. In skating, the USA is desperately searching for a star. So much that at Nationals this year, Mirai Nagasu's amazing 1st place short program was COMPLETELY overshadowed by Sasha Cohen's return skate. Cohen got most of the post-skate interview questions, got the most attention on NBC, and she was the centerpiece of most of the newspaper articles related to the competition. I felt we were desperately clinging onto old times and memories when it was clear that Cohen was past her heyday and would be no more competitive in the Vancouver field than who we ended up sending.

So yes, if Yuna were American she'd be hailed as the next MK, the next latest and greatest thing to ever happen to US skating. But the fact is, she's not, and we will continue our search for the next female American skating star.

And the ironic thing is that as much as Yuna is loved in Korea, I have never seen any Korean media proclaim her as the "greatest ever" - they always say she is the "currently the best in the world" (except to report the recent result of the USFSA poll^^).

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Don't speak Korean so I won't speak for their media. But in this day and age of the internet, blogs and forums, I'd argue that the fans have nearly just as loud a voice as the press. And many of THEM are "proclaiming her as the 'greatest ever'", even if they are not using those specific words. If we are speaking of the CURRENT GENERATION though, then yes, it is fair to claim that she is the best right now. But of all-time? IMHO that's a HUGE stretch at the moment.

prettykeys said:

Gushing.

Not that there is anything wrong with it per se; nor was I specifically addressing GoPC2018, but rather the antagonistic and oversensitive attitude of this and certain other posters.

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Oh so that was gushing? what did exactly annoy you in that context? That was probably the most gushing-like statement I've made in this forum tho. I was obviously exaggerating a little bit because of the previous posts, but that was nearly how I felt about her new EX and her show in general. If you don't like my wording, then just ignore. I have problem expressing myself in English anywayz.

GoPC2018 said:

Oh so that was gushing? what did exactly annoy you in that context? I was obviously exaggerating a little bit because of the previous posts, but that was nearly how I felt about her new EX and her show in general. If you don't like my wording, then just ignore. I have problem expressing myself in English anywayz.

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GoPC2018, maybe you should take your own advice, as you admittedly say "I don't want to read those time-wasting crap here and get pissed and forced to write back..."

chloepoco said:

GoPC2018, maybe you should take your own advice, as you admittedly say "I don't want to read those time-wasting crap here and get pissed and forced to write back..."

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I knew someone would come after me for this exact phrase. I meant English is my second language, so my awkward wording might sometimes annoy some of you. In that case, you can just ignore me taking that account. I actually don't want to ignore some of the posters who just likes to tarnish Yuna and her accomplishments.

GoPC2018 said:

I knew someone would come after me for this exact phrase. I meant English is my second language, so my awkward wording might sometimes annoy some of you. In that case, you can just ignore me taking that account. I actually don't want to ignore some of the posters who just likes to tarnish Yuna and her accomplishments. (Blades, no, you are not one of them. lol at least you have some reasoning.)

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You missed my point entirely and it has nothing to do with your English, which is fine. You are telling someone "If you don't like my wording, then just ignore." My point was that you should take your own advice, and if YOU don't like someone's wording, just ignore, instead of "getting pissed and being forced to write back".

duplicate

chloepoco said:

You missed my point entirely and it has nothing to do with your English, which is fine. You are telling someone "If you don't like my wording, then just ignore." My point was that you should take your own advice, and if YOU don't like someone's wording, just ignore, instead of "getting pissed and being forced to write back".

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You still didn't get my point. Prettykey didn't like my so-called "gushing" attitude over Yuna. That might be due to my awkward wording or not. yes, I'm blaming all on my English. lol But, bashing someone without good reasoning is totally different. That shouldn't be ignored. I hope I make sense.