Johnny Weir Not Skating this season

i love to skate said:

I just went and watched his 2007 short. The music is a bit different (although still a take on a classical piece) but honestly it still looks very similar choreographically to his other programs.

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Johnny's 2006 SP

Johnny's 2007 SP

How do those look "very similar"?

i love to skate said:

Don't you think it is also naive to blame the system for Johnny's failures though? Yes, the system changed and Johnny needed to adapt but it changed for everyone. Buttle, Lambiel, Plushenko, Joubert, Lysaeck, etc. were able to make the system work for them, and they are all very different skaters. Skating is still skating no matter if it is a different system in place. It is still the glide of the blade on the ice and the beauty that comes with that.

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I'm not blaming the system for his "failures", I'm blaming the system for restricting artistry. The style of performance that became trademark for skaters like Lu Chen, Michelle Kwan, and Johnny Weir has been made nearly impossible these past 6 seasons, especially in recent years with the huge craze on OMG TRANSITIONS!!!! The sentence I bolded in the quote is absolutely not true anymore. You can not say that about figuring skating in the past several years. Figure skating in the past several years has been about cramming all kinds of extra (often ugly) movements into spins, footwork, spirals, and jumps to gain as many points as possible.

Regardless, the judges haven't been good at scoring in CoP. Spins should automatically get 0 GOE (or negative GOE) for positions that don't look good. Footwork sequences should be penalized if they break from an actual pattern. The "choreography" and "interpretation" Program Component marks should be taking a big hit, if judges were paying attention to how well the moves actually match up with the music and create a whole that is greater than the parts.

The fact that almost all of the top skaters are now doing all 3 of their jumping passes back-to-back-to-back in the SP and still receiving high Choreography scores is a testament to how poor the judges have been at evaluating the sport.

i love to skate said:

Lysacek is absolutely not my favourite skater either, but IMO it is ridiculous to say his skating regressed from 2007 - not sure if you are kidding or not...

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If you don't feel his skating has regressed then, by all means, please show me a performance from him that is on the same level as it was at 2007 Nationals.

I'm baffled by your criticism of Weir never doing anything new when Evan has absolutely not done anything different at all. He has been recycling and watering down his choreography for years and giving basically the exact same performances to different background music.

Blades of Passion said:

I'm baffled by your criticism of Weir never doing anything new when Evan has absolutely not done anything different at all. He has been recycling and watering down his choreography for years and giving basically the exact same performances to different background music.

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I would agree. Especially when you compare his 2007 Carmen to his 2008 Tosca. Speaking from a strictly sport perspective it makes sense, you're in it to win not become some great piece of art, but it's not what makes skating great. Carmen is still a program I LOVE to watch because it is well put together and his energy is fantastic (I liked his 2006 Carmen more than his 2007, even though it's basically the same... I'm not sure why).

That being said I don't blame CoP for his interchangable programs - I blame Evan and his team. This is the same team that gave Michelle Kwan her programs that are also very similar. They found a formula that worked so all they do now is change the Vera Wang/Christian Dior and the music and bam they have a "new program". Lori Nichol did the same thing with Sale & Pelletier. Once she's blocked them into 'what they are' then that's what the audience gets. Doesn't matter the judging system.

Blades of Passion said:

I'm not blaming the system for his "failures", I'm blaming the system for restricting artistry. The style of performance that became trademark for skaters like Lu Chen, Michelle Kwan, and Johnny Weir has been made nearly impossible these past 6 seasons, especially in recent years with the huge craze on OMG TRANSITIONS!!!! The sentence I bolded in the quote is absolutely not true anymore. You can not say that about figuring skating in the past several years. Figure skating in the past several years has been about cramming all kinds of extra (often ugly) movements into spins, footwork, spirals, and jumps to gain as many points as possible.

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Chan, Kim, Rochette, Dube/Davison, Takahashi, Kozuka, Virtue/Moir, S/Z, S/S, Lambiel, Buttle, Mao, etc. All of these skaters have tremendous glide in their blades and beauty in their skating. How can you say that statement is not true??

I also was using that statement to show a skaters view (when you said this is not what Johnny signed up for). Skating is still skating no matter what the system is. When people start skating they don't fall in love with the scoring system - they fall in love with the wind in their face, the speed across the ice, flying into a jump, spinning forever, and expressing themselves through music. All of that is still there today.

Blades of Passion said:

If you don't feel his skating has regressed then, by all means, please show me a performance from him that is on the same level as it was at 2007 Nationals.

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2009 Worlds and 2010 Olympics were both great competitions for Evan. Evan pushed himself and he became World and Olympic champion. You don't get to that point by being complacent or regressing...

Blades of Passion said:

I'm baffled by your criticism of Weir never doing anything new when Evan has absolutely not done anything different at all. He has been recycling and watering down his choreography for years and giving basically the exact same performances to different background music.

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Does everything have to turn into a debate of Evan/Johnny?? I never said that Evan always tried new things or had a new program approach in his skating. He did however work on his presentation skills quite a bit and overall his skating became stronger and more stable, IMO.

ETA:

Tonichelle said:

That being said I don't blame CoP for his interchangable programs - I blame Evan and his team. This is the same team that gave Michelle Kwan her programs that are also very similar. They found a formula that worked so all they do now is change the Vera Wang/Christian Dior and the music and bam they have a "new program". Lori Nichol did the same thing with Sale & Pelletier. Once she's blocked them into 'what they are' then that's what the audience gets. Doesn't matter the judging system.

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I have to disagree about Kwan and Sale and Pelletier. Lori gave Sale and Pelletier quite a bit to work with - including the GORGEOUS "The Orchid" number that was breathtaking. They however scrapped it and went back to Love Story because the choreography was too difficult.

As for Michelle; I really don't know how the programs Lori gave her were similar. Salome, Taj Mahal, Lyra Angelica, Ariane, The Red Violin - I mean WOW! All of them are so incredibly different!

This is not quite a propos but I fear that my seemingly critical tone in this thread belies my actual adoration of La Johnny. In recent weeks I've been walking around humming "My Way," from having seen a vid of Johnny doing it once or twice four years ago. He OWNS that song. (Pace Chairman of the Board.) Watch how he does one of his clockwise turns right on the words "my way" at 3:11. The whole number, and the way it builds emotion and momentum, is just fabulous. Even in a blurry version! The whole idea of this 22 year old skating to such an autumnal, retrospective song is crazy, but he pulls it off so magnificently. See how they roar!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3H73xZbCWw

i love to skate said:

Does everything have to turn into a debate of Evan/Johnny??

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Wier seems to think so sometimes.

This debate fascinates me because Wier is such a polarizing figure. I tend to think it's a little from column A, a little from column B in terms of the reasons surrounding his previous two seasons and his goals moving forward.

i love to skate said:

Chan, Kim, Rochette, Dube/Davison, Takahashi, Kozuka, Virtue/Moir, S/Z, S/S, Lambiel, Buttle, Mao, etc. All of these skaters have tremendous glide in their blades and beauty in their skating. How can you say that statement is not true??

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They all include movements in their programs that look bad solely because CoP calls for it. If skating was truly being judged on the glide of the blade and beauty of movements, then a fabulous "Level 1" Spiral Sequence would be worth more points than the ugly "Level 4" variety. Spiral Sequences have been fixed for this next season, thankfully, but we are still left with convoluted footwork and spins, as well as the requirement of the 3-jump combination, which often looks ungainly as well. These problems need to be addressed before the sport can be truly functional again.

i love to skate said:

I also was using that statement to show a skaters view (when you said this is not what Johnny signed up for). Skating is still skating no matter what the system is. When people start skating they don't fall in love with the scoring system - they fall in love with the wind in their face, the speed across the ice, flying into a jump, spinning forever, and expressing themselves through music. All of that is still there today.

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No it's not. At least not nearly as much as it used to be. The system as it stands forces skaters to restrict the way in which they express themself. You're not allowed to do a Layback spin that sits in just one position and expresses the beautiful simplicity of the music at that moment. Instead, you have to do a sideways position and then also grab your blade and pull it up to your head.

You're not allowed to do a stunning flying sit spin that lasts for just a few seconds to highlight the music. Instead, you have to grab your leg and extend it and put your face in your crotch for 8 revolutions, after which point you need to twist your body into some other position for at least 2 revolutions before completing the spin.

You can't do footwork that flies across the ice and is simply a series of running steps and brackets and hops. Instead, you have to include all kinds of complete body rotation in both directions and at least half a dozen different kinds of turns and steps.

i love to skate said:

2009 Worlds and 2010 Olympics were both great competitions for Evan. Evan pushed himself and he became World and Olympic champion. You don't get to that point by being complacent or regressing...

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You do when your competition doesn't stand up. It doesn't matter if he won with those performances, the fact is that those performances are nowhere near the level he displayed at 2007 Nationals. Evan's winning performances in 2009 and 2010 would not have won him 2010 Nationals, 2008 Worlds, 2008 Four Continents, 2006 Worlds, 2006 Olympics, or 2004 GPF. Evan played it safe and counted on others making mistakes and other skaters did indeed make mistakes. Takahashi/Plushenko/Joubert/Lambiel/Abbott/Chan all would have beat him at Olympics if they had skated perfect. Obviously they didn't, and good on Evan for delivering, but it's too bad that he skated at a lower level than he had been pushed to in the past.

Spun Silver said:

This is not quite a propos but I fear that my seemingly critical tone in this thread belies my actual adoration of La Johnny.

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I don't think it did at all. I think it's healthy when a fan can and will admit that their favorites aren't 100% perfect all the time, or make excuses for them.

Tonichelle said:

I would agree. Especially when you compare his 2007 Carmen to his 2008 Tosca. Speaking from a strictly sport perspective it makes sense, you're in it to win not become some great piece of art, but it's not what makes skating great. Carmen is still a program I LOVE to watch because it is well put together and his energy is fantastic (I liked his 2006 Carmen more than his 2007, even though it's basically the same... I'm not sure why).

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This is the problem. To win in figure skating, it used to be that you DID have to create art. Or, if not that, you had to be significantly better than the more artistic skaters in technical merit while still having a nice enough program.

A lot of the things CoP has been rewarding aren't actual displays of superior technical ability. It used to be that you outshone your competitor in technical merit by doing Quads or difficult combinations. Not by adding an extra double jump onto an easy combination, or by cramming a bunch of jumping passes back-to-back-to-back at exactly the halfway point of your program, or by flailing your arms and feet jaggedly in footwork sequences.

None of those things are really true displays of greater technical merit. They're mainly just arbitrary rules that are nearly as senseless as "you gain extra points every time you rub your stomach and tap the top of your head at the same time." Some skaters don't like having to rub their stomach and tap the top of their head while skating. No audience memeber gets anything extra out of it either.

I don't care about the "talent" of mastering the ability to rub my stomach while tapping the top of my head. Neither do you. If people actually cared about such things, then "standing on a stool with 1 foot while rubbing your stomach and tapping the top of your head" would be an Olympic sport. A lot of the things CoP has introduced are along those lines. They force skaters to do moves that shouldn't be measured as a beneficial thing for Ice Skating in the first place.

What's worse is how faux-artistry actually passes as REAL artistry now. Doing a gaudy flourish with your hands along with a quick kick after a jump when the music is soft and it makes no sense to do such a move actually gets you points under the artistic score these days because it's an OMG TRANSITION!!! It's paint-by-the-numbers artistry. You don't need to actually know how to create art, or have the ability to do so, you just have to master the technique of never painting outside the dotted lines.

An even better example is the board game "Operation". We remember this game from childhood, right? You try to pull little pieces out of a plastic man's chest and as long as you don't hit the sides, you win! You've completed an operation! For real Doctors there is far more involved with doing a heart transplant. With CoP skating, it's kind of like skaters are being rewarded for doing a real operation when in fact all they've done is move a little plastic piece without messing up.

BTW, Evan's 2006 Carmen was more enjoyable than his 2007 Carmen because he didn't have a snide look on his face all the time in 2006. And people say Weir has the big, unsavory ego. LMAO. Weir is a far kinder and more genuine person and that's all I will say on the subject (other than how it's irrelevant anyway if you're being objective and judging only what happens on the ice).

Blades of Passion said:

BTW, Evan's 2006 Carmen was more enjoyable than his 2007 Carmen because he didn't have a snide look on his face all the time in 2006. And people say Weir has the big, unsavory ego. LMAO. Weir is a far kinder and more genuine person and that's all I will say on the subject (other than how it's irrelevant anyway if you're being objective and judging only what happens on the ice).

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hmmmmm. nope. that's not it. and for what its worth I've had good and bad 'meetings' with Johnny (though I've had far MORE run ins with Weir than Lysacek. I swear Johnny was everywhere I was in both 2005 and 2006. It was weird lol) Lysacek I met briefly in 2008 and he was extremely personable. Johnny ran hot and cold (more so in 2005 than 2006, now that I think of it). *shrugs*


I guess I just am not watching the same skating on TV as you are, because I don't see it as such a dark and evil place. CoP is far easier to understand, and skating still has its moments of brilliance as well as boredom. I can and do wear rose colored glasses about the past, but there are many competitions/skaters that were up at the top that were dull as all get out and just ticking off the numbers. To each their own. (and no I didn't join the skating bandwagon after 2002, 1989 started it all for me, and I started watching pro skating which was always more about performance/artistry than jumps).

Blades of Passion said:

Wow, you're right, Lyscek's performance was just as beautiful and far more difficult!.

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Obviously Lysacek did not have quads in his Olympic freeskate, but on other areas Lysacek´s Olympic performance was more difficult and in my opinion also more beautiful than that of Yagudin (who was the last to skate and played it safe with his performance. At Worlds he was better). I remember that Yagudin competed in Japan under CoP and e.g. his footwork was seen as level 1 by the judges. His spins (as with many other Russian male skaters) were never great. Yagudin did not have any transitions before his jumps, as far as I have understood the butterfly at 4:15 is not a jump.

Yes, CoP has indeed made skating programme more difficult generally, most skaters have been able to adapt, but obviously Weir is not one of them.

Jaana said:

I remember that Yagudin competed in Japan under CoP and e.g. his footwork was seen as level 1 by the judges.

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His level 1 footwork is better than any level 4 footwork Lysacek has ever done. Lysacek could never pull off that "Level 1" footwork as superbly, whereas Yagudin could certainly flail his way to a "Level 4" footwork sequence if he really wanted to.

Jaana said:

Yagudin did not have any transitions before his jumps

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So what? Anyone can TELEGRAPH a jump with a spread eagle or spiral; note that Evan doesn't jump directly from those transitions, as someone like Savoie frequently did. They are telegraph transitions.

Yagudin does multiple Quads and one of the most glorious Triple Axels ever. His jumping is vastly superior to Evan's.

In terms of transitions, the movement Yagudin does before his spin at 4:15 is a riskier choreographic move than anything Lysacek has ever attempted in a competitive performance. And did you seriously just say that Yagudin's transition counts for nothing because he didn't do it before a jump? LOL, you're CoP brainwashed.

Somebody hand me my coloring book! This artistry stuff is too hard!

(I fear my tone has reached a point of deadly acidity. Hopefully nobody feels burned by my opinions)

Blades of Passion said:

(I fear my tone has reached a point of deadly acidity. Hopefully nobody feels burned by my opinions)

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Burned? Naah. Little hesitant to debate. Well, maybe a little.

Blades of Passion said:

In terms of transitions, the movement Yagudin does before his spin at 4:15 is a riskier choreographic move than anything Lysacek has ever attempted in a competitive performance. And did you seriously just say that Yagudin's transition counts for nothing because he didn't do it before a jump? LOL, you're CoP brainwashed.

Somebody hand me my coloring book! This artistry stuff is too hard!

(I fear my tone has reached a point of deadly acidity. Hopefully nobody feels burned by my opinions)

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I agree with everything you said....and why not.

When Johhny first had his sucess it was in large part do to CoP and the fact that less emphasis was placed on the quad and more on footwork, spins etc, which he excelled at. He (and Evan) would not have had the success the did if they skated under 6.0. True, Johnny's first two US Titles were won under 6.0 but they were fantastic clean skates, which are appreciated under any system. and of course there wasn't anybody skating clean with quads at nationals either. CoP gave Johnny the opportunity to play tongue strenghths, but he admittedly didn't want to do that and conciously ignored the rules. he wanted to be a artist, not a competitor wheras Evan is always a competitor first. nothing wrong with choosing to be an artist, but don't expect to beat somebody who is out there to win. Johnny never had the drive to win, and it is not surprising he didn't, after 2006. When bronze is good enough, well taut says something.

After 2006 others started working the system to squeeze out the points. Johnny always saw a conflict between doing that and skating a great program. When you look at Evan, Blades' critiques of COP are justified. Yet guys like Abbott, Chan and Takahashi have been able to create beauty and emotion while racking up their points. It seems logical to assume they have some sort of technical edge over Johnny, but maybe that's not it.

To a nontechnical eye it's more as if they found material that fits them to a T, whereas Johnny really hasn't since the Swan, except in his exhbitions. This past season he performed well but the material itself was not great - he rocked it with attitude and strength, not with great choreo.

Still, who are the most memorable? Yagudin and Johnny.

Here a couple statements that ring true for me:

Blades of Passion: "it's an OMG TRANSITION!!! It's paint-by-the-numbers artistry"

Spun Silver: "Still, who are the most memorable? Yagudin and Johnny"

Who knows what might have been possible had Johnny stuck with David Wilson's original choreography. No wonder he wants to take a step back, what with his revered coach Galina cutting out Wilson's choreo. (you can see this on an episode of BGJW.)

Blades of Passion said:

His level 1 footwork is better than any level 4 footwork Lysacek has ever done. Lysacek could never pull off that "Level 1" footwork as superbly, whereas Yagudin could certainly flail his way to a "Level 4" footwork sequence if he really wanted to.



So what? Anyone can TELEGRAPH a jump with a spread eagle or spiral; note that Evan doesn't jump directly from those transitions, as someone like Savoie frequently did. They are telegraph transitions.

Yagudin does multiple Quads and one of the most glorious Triple Axels ever. His jumping is vastly superior to Evan's.

In terms of transitions, the movement Yagudin does before his spin at 4:15 is a riskier choreographic move than anything Lysacek has ever attempted in a competitive performance. And did you seriously just say that Yagudin's transition counts for nothing because he didn't do it before a jump? LOL, you're CoP brainwashed.

Somebody hand me my coloring book! This artistry stuff is too hard!

(I fear my tone has reached a point of deadly acidity. Hopefully nobody feels burned by my opinions)

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not burned but we are all starting to feed into hyperbole. To suggest Lysacek couldnt succeed at Yagudins footwork when the whole cast of SOI nailed it is a tad far fetched.

Blades of Passion said:

This is the problem. To win in figure skating, it used to be that you DID have to create art. Or, if not that, you had to be significantly better than the more artistic skaters in technical merit while still having a nice enough program.

A lot of the things CoP has been rewarding aren't actual displays of superior technical ability. It used to be that you outshone your competitor in technical merit by doing Quads or difficult combinations. Not by adding an extra double jump onto an easy combination, or by cramming a bunch of jumping passes back-to-back-to-back at exactly the halfway point of your program, or by flailing your arms and feet jaggedly in footwork sequences.

None of those things are really true displays of greater technical merit. They're mainly just arbitrary rules that are nearly as senseless as "you gain extra points every time you rub your stomach and tap the top of your head at the same time." Some skaters don't like having to rub their stomach and tap the top of their head while skating. No audience memeber gets anything extra out of it either.

I don't care about the "talent" of mastering the ability to rub my stomach while tapping the top of my head. Neither do you. If people actually cared about such things, then "standing on a stool with 1 foot while rubbing your stomach and tapping the top of your head" would be an Olympic sport. A lot of the things CoP has introduced are along those lines. They force skaters to do moves that shouldn't be measured as a beneficial thing for Ice Skating in the first place.

What's worse is how faux-artistry actually passes as REAL artistry now. Doing a gaudy flourish with your hands along with a quick kick after a jump when the music is soft and it makes no sense to do such a move actually gets you points under the artistic score these days ...

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It's hard for me not to feel these comments are very true (especially the one I put in boldface), despite the fact that we certainly can name some beautiful programs that have occurred under COP. But for me the general trend reflects Blades's comments.

Hi, ummmm kinda...mostly OT, but if I wanted to watch Johnny's (and the others) 2010 Olympic performances, in their entirety, on the net, where could I look? I haven't seen them anywhere since Feb. Am I missing something? Is there some secret cyber underground tube site that I don't know about?

So sad Johnny won't be skating this season. But I look forward to the skating show he's planning.

Soldier of Love said:

Hi, ummmm kinda...mostly OT, but if I wanted to watch Johnny's (and the others) 2010 Olympic performances, in their entirety, on the net, where could I look? I haven't seen them anywhere since Feb. Am I missing something? Is there some secret cyber underground tube site that I don't know about?

So sad Johnny won't be skating this season. But I look forward to the skating show he's planning.

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to have to go to nbcolympics.com and find thr videos there (Which are in great HD).