Surprising that Fumie Suguri never won Worlds

Take a look at Fumie's actual performances at Worlds and you'll feel she was fortunate that she ever won any medals. Fumie had weak, wobbly spirals with lousy extension. In fact sometimes you just wanted to reach through the TV screen and straighten her leg out. She had a really ugly layback spin with her foot hanging off her ankle like a loaf of bologna. She had some good jumps, but some that weren't all that good, including a persistent lip and problems landing on an outside edge. And she couldn't get through two performances without errors in one or the other, usually having multiple pops, turnouts, and or falls. Usually she was better in the SP. She had no particular complexity in her transitions, and a deadpan presentation that could lead you to fall asleep. The one time she actually deserved a medal and didn't get one was probably the 2006 Olympics , which was sad.

In 2002, there is absolutely no way Fumie should have beaten Irina. Irina was 1 in her qualifying round. Michelle won the other qualifying round. Fumie was second in hers. Then in the SP, it was Irina, Fumie, Michelle. In the LP Irina, Michelle, Fumie. Irina just swept the board that year.

In 2003 in DC, I was there, and believe me, she was lucky to medal. If Sasha had been able to do as good an SP as she couldand hadn't had an unlucky assignment in the QR , she wouldn't have. Sokolova was charming, and in 2003 Michelle was absolutely flawless and deserved to win. Her The Feeling Begins SP was superb. The height and quality of her last 3Lz in her LP was amazing. Including QR, Michelle was 1,1,1. Sokolova was 2, 2, 2. Fumie was 1, 3, 4 and was lucky that Sokolova wasn't in her QR, or she wouldn't have won that. Fumie's biggest competition in her QR was Jennifer Robinson and Viktoria Volchkova. If Sasha was in Fumie's qual group, she would have been better than Robinson at least, and she might have well edged Fumie overall. As it was, she finished 3,5,3 and beat Fumie in the LP.

In 2006, none of the ladies skated their best except Kimmie Meissner.
Rank Name Nation Total Points QB QA SP FS
1 Kimmie Meissner United States 218.33 2 5 1
2 Fumie Suguri Japan 209.74 1 2 2
3 Sasha Cohen United States 208.88 3 1 4
4 Elena Sokolova Russia 202.27 6 3 3
5 Yukari Nakano Japan 195.65 2 6 6
6 Sarah Meier Switzerland 195.11 5 4 5

The ordinals, as you can see, were all over the place.

I like Fumie. There have been moments when I have really enjoyed her skating. She is fast across the ice and in spinning, has good edges and is a nice performer. Love her 3flip and her back scratch spin, but most of her positions just came off very unfinished, unpolished. The only Worlds I thought she had a chance to win was 2006. While I was watching, I thought Fumie did enough to win, that Kimmie would win the LP but Fumie overall. As happy as I was for Kimmie, I was really pulling for Fumie.

I think it's more surprising Sasha never won Wolds-I really felt 2006 was hers to win, maybe even 2004.

dorispulaski, pointing out ordinals and scores isn't really helpful. We can all look up the data and see what the judges thought, but that doesn't mean the opinion of the panel was correct. For example:

dorispulaski said:

In 2002, there is absolutely no way Fumie should have beaten Irina. Irina was 1 in her qualifying round. Michelle won the other qualifying round. Fumie was second in hers. Then in the SP, it was Irina, Fumie, Michelle. In the LP Irina, Michelle, Fumie. Irina just swept the board that year.

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Irina should have been 3rd in the LP. She is rarely an interesting skater and Tosca was yet another one of her bland programs. The choreography tried to make her skating seem more deep and emotional, but the ridiculous flailing and head grabbing was just a bunch of PHONY artistry (at least the way Irina presented it). Her acting was on the level of a college freshman. You can't knock her technically, she was certainly the best in that regard at 2002 Worlds, but the technical mark is only half the score.

So, yeah, 1. Fumie, 2. Michelle, 3. Irina for me at 2002 Worlds. :yes:

I think as far as "pretty" factor goes, like which programs I felt were most pleasing to watch, I'd have it Michelle (2nd best performance after Nationals where I felt she had more energy), Fumie (Moonlight Sonata is probably my favorite program of hers-LOVE the huge 3fl and the forward hand assited spiral into the 3lz/2t) and then Irina (thought her jumps were the best of the three that night, but not much I enjoy about this LP). The only mistake amongst the top 3 was Fumie doubling the loop. All 3 attempted 6 triples-I was glad Michelle didn't go for the 2nd 3t and did the two falling leafs instead, much prettier.

Just personal preference...I would've ranked them:
Michelle 5.7/5.9
Fumie: 5.7/5.8
Irina: 5.8/5.7

Fumie had weak, wobbly spirals with lousy extension. In fact sometimes you just wanted to reach through the TV screen and straighten her leg out.

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I agree..... Fumie's extension in some of her spins and spirals bother me but they also bother me when it comes to Yu na so that's not a good reason....well not for the judges. I do enjoy both....

I just thought about it but Kimmie's spins are great either. Her layback is kind of weird looking.

Yu Na's leg positions aren't always perfect, but she has great edges in her spirals. Fumie, not.

And BoP, have you ever seen Irina live? It's a revelation as to why the judges put her in first place when she landed the jumps:
1. Speed
2. Great one foot footwork
3. Personality radiated to the rafters.

None of those things shows up all that well on TV.

And as far as showing the ordinals, what often gets missed in analyses done after the fact are the effects of the Qualifying Rounds, in the eras when they were skated-which is why I put them up to remind people. In the days of the QR, often only the top 2 skaters coming into the LP were in a position to win without people ahead of them bombing.

2002 tosca Irina
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y118zXrE9IQ
Posy sort of beginning
3Lz2lp huge and off the correct edge, just a couple steps to go whole length of ice
3S2t Salchow good, 2t not large.
Plain flying camel. Enough revs, but average speed.
angsty moves while skating
3Lz gorgeous.
turning 3's into 3Lp right into a sit spin. Really great control of the landing edge.
More angsty posing, followed by fast but not complex f/w
length of the ice on one foot 3F immediatetly into 2A into quite nice layback spin
skate, skate, into a really good edge on the first spiral (held), second spiral (Biellmann) held, kind of a half flash Charlote spiral not held
3T - good jump, landing OK but not her best.
Really great finally spin with great speed in all positions and Biellmann position in both directions with enough revs.


2002 Moonlight Sonata Fumie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtCUlOvMCwA
Open with 2 very slow Ina Bauers with no backbend left and right. Interesting.
3Lz2T nice
rather shaky pivot
3F, slightly lipped, good height, but squicky landing
straight skating
3S nice
Flying sit, av. Not many revs
stand in one place a long time
Nice very slow posing skating
too slow into a 2LP
crossovers into 3Lz well done
Kerrigan spiral position into 3t2t, not particularly high or good or bad. Something odd about the 3t landing
non spin spin
camel/change/camel OK
lot of simple steps into 2A
2 spirals - not held long, positions not great
into final spin. The 2 foot spin is good and really fast. The rest of it not so much.

only 5 triples to Irina's 6, and Irina's 3Lz2Lp is a harder combo than the 3Lz2t Fumie does. Irina kept the energy up throughout the program, including a much better final spin, and Irina's speed and jumps were better. Plus Irina had much harder transitions into and out of jumps.

No way should Fumie win this LP.
Also while this is not my favorite Irina program, and probably I like Fumie's LP better than most of her LP's, Fumie's SP is not a fav or mine Ave Maria (not a fan of religious music for skating)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfIMDI7doWI
good 3lz2t. empty f/w to 3lip with slightly squicky landing a quite nice layback by doing leg to side, then a flying sit with no sit in it. Awful spiral with squared off foot. Biellmann spiral with no edge. Kerrigan spiral. Not held. 2A OK. Final spin good, with good scratch spin.



and Irina's SP is my favorite Irina SP.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uIvHWQ7vyY

Opens with 3Lz2Lp Great height!
2A OK
huge 3F
catchfoot layback with good speed.
The whole footwork sequence done end to end on one foot-great speed and control
First 2 spirals done on one foot without stroking between them. Especially great edge on the first one.
couple steps into 3rd spiral, which is held adequately too.
Good final spin! Biellmann's both ways. Good speed.
Dick: "strong and energetic performance"
Dick feels she deserves 1st place, if you don't believe me.


So Fumie should finish no better than 2nd. IMO of course, YMMV.

dorispulaski said:

And BoP, have you ever seen Irina live? It's a revelation as to why the judges put her in first place when she landed the jumps:
1. Speed
2. Great one foot footwork
3. Personality radiated to the rafters.

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Irina did not do any one-foot footwork in her "Tosca" performance, nor was there an overwhelming amount of personality in that performance. Her speed was good but not phenomenal.

Irina deservedly won the SP, but she won the LP because she was seen as due for a World Championship title (that, and a completely European judging panel).

Also, as for personality, that only means something if it matches the music. Slutskaya sometimes has "more personality" when she skates than Fumie, but Fumie's reserved and refined nature during her 2002 LP was a perfect fit for the music of Moonlight Sonata. She melded into the music. That's ART.

In your opinion of course. I saw limited art in either LP, and some art in both SP's.

"Beillmann both ways"...now that I'd love to see!

I thought Fumie had a flutz, not a lip? Thank for correction she did Kerrigan spiral into 3t/2t, I thought it was into 3lz/2t. Regardless, nice transition, I thought. I'll have to rewatch the programs someday. I just remember being so impressed by Fumie's performance and thought she was just lovely. Although I agree-not much to remember about her SP. Irina having great energy and good height to her jumps, but really did not like Tosca choreo, too much angst posing and pulling of hair and little else. I'd never say Fumie was a better skater or competitor than Irina, but I do think MS was a prettier and nicer program than Tosca. Wish she landed the 3lp.

I see you edited your post with a link to the performances and some thoughts on them, dorispulaski. Thank you for that.

What your post fails to mention is how well Fumie's arm movements went with the music. In your critique of her performance you write "straight skating" as if she is doing nothing during that part of the program.

You write "rather shaky pivot" for a move that was not trying to be an actual pivot. The free foot was simply held low as she was gliding. That move had excellent edge quality and interpreted the music beautifully.

Next you write "Flying sit, av. Not many revs". You do not talk about the excellent transition going into that spin or how well her arms during the spin interpret the music. One thing that is so wrong about CoP is how spins MUST have a million revolutions for skaters to get points. A quick spin that highlights the music is not a bad thing. Fumie could have gotten lower in the sit position to make it a better spin, but it's a better Flying Sit than what Irina Slutskaya did. You didn't even mention that move on your writeup of Slutskaya's performance, probably because it was such a weak move.

Then for Fumie you say "stand in one place a long time" - you did not talk about how the music had gone into a complete descrendo at that point or the beautiful expression Fumie has, which again interprets the music perfectly.

On her 3T-2T combination you don't mention the lovely, quick inside spread eagle she does along with an elegant wave of her arm. This is the kind of movement you'll see skaters carelessly adding into their performances these days simply because it's a transition, but here that movement is such a great match for the mood of the program.

For some reason you don't mention her straight-line footwork sequence at all, which has tremendous speed and beautifully expresses the increased tempo of the music.

On her Spiral Sequence you criticize her for not holding it long enough when it didn't NEED to be held any longer to highlight the music (yet another huge failure of CoP, which has finally been mostly fixed with the new rule change for judging Spiral Sequences) and you criticize her positions, which are attractive here. Her edge quality is excellent too.

You even criticize her final spin combination, which admittedly could have had better positions in the first part (they aren't ugly though), but ends with a wonderfully fast and centered scratch spin that is a perfect match for the rapid notes of the music at that point.

Fumie's program was GORGEOUS. It is exactly the type of skating that hasn't been possible under CoP and shows proof of why the rules to need be further refined (and why judges need to stop judging on reputation).

OT, but has Fumie ever attempted a 3-3?

HCOSurfer said:

OT, but has Fumie ever attempted a 3-3?

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In practice, yes. In competition, I believe not.

dorispulaski said:

In your opinion of course. I saw limited art in either LP, and some art in both SP's.

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aftertherain said:

In practice, yes. In competition, I believe not.

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I've seen videos of Fumie attempting a 3Lz+3T in competition. I believe one was at Goodwill Games 2001 and the other at Skate Canada 2001.

MikiAndoFan#1 said:

I've seen videos of Fumie attempting a 3Lz+3T in competition. I believe one was at Goodwill Games 2001 and the other at Skate Canada 2001.

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OH. "Attempted". Oops. My bad. I thought HCO said "completed one".

Michelle was in this competition, too. Here are her performances:

QR included 3t/3t, a 2LP instead of 3LP, and a messy landing on the 3S
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-RaCEW9xWM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSQF2YkoAEM
3lz turnout 2t
2a
pretty heart spin layback
nice 3F
nicer posture
fly sit. I stil prefer a sitspin that sits. Dick does not agree.
beautiful spiral
3rd spiral not held
combo spin to end

I don't remember the 4th & 5th place performances, but it is entirely possible that Michelle should have been lower than 3rd in the SP.

However, her LP was a very nice performance, and I might have put it ahead of both Irina and Fumie.


LP Scheherezade
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoWrWD8M_cU

3LP to open
3t2t good, but not the 3t3t she did in the qr
spin
slow skating into 2A,not best landing, but OK
3F nice
heart layback a little short
beautiful 3s nice to the music
gorgeous COe spiral into combo spin
3 Lz nice lutz edge
fast for Michelle f/w
two good splits into
final spin.

Same jump content as Irina, including 3Lz2Lp
6 triples to Fumie's 5, including the harder 3Lz2Lp

And for me, although this is not my favorite Michelle program (it has some empty spots), there is some art in this program.

I would certainly have Michelle ahead of Fumie in the LP. Michelle's spins are not up to Irina's. Her speed is better than in some past programs, but it's not up to Irina's. OTOH, I would have given Michelle the second mark over Irina.

BoP? As long as they don't have airplane arms or really ugly arms, I don't notice the arms. I'm too busy watching their feet. Skating is about edges, not hand waving for me.

dorispulaski said:

I don't remember the 4th & 5th place performances, but it is entirely possible that Michelle should have been lower than 3rd in the SP.

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The 4th & 5th place performances were Sasha Cohen with a fall on a double axel and Yoshie Onda, who was clean on the jumps and lacking in every other regard.

dorispulaski said:

BoP? As long as they don't have airplane arms or really ugly arms, I don't notice the arms. I'm too busy watching their feet. Skating is about edges, not hand waving for me.

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Then I'm sure you wouldn't mind if every skater used the same music and wore the exact same costume, right?

Skating is about EVERY movement and expression that happens on the ice, juxtaposed with music.

BTW, if you were only watching their feet there are still numerous choreographic moves Fumie performed (beautifully to the music, if such a thing actually matters at all anymore) that you overlooked.

Michelle lower than 3rd with a clean short and with Rach...no I don't think so. Even with the fall out of the lutz combo it was still a good skate. There was just too much good about Michelle's skating even with the one bobble.

She wasn't clean, that's why she was 3rd rather than 1st.

Right but not lower than third. I actually thought it was a really good skate minus the bobble. I actually liked the flow of it better than the Olympics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTpryNCkKYg