USOC / NBC Praise for Evan Lysacek | Page 5 | Golden Skate

USOC / NBC Praise for Evan Lysacek

Blades of Passion

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
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FlattFan said:
It was just like Mao's on any given day. Notice where the blade touched the ice, and completed the rotation on ice. The exact same thing Mao does every time.
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No, you're delusional. Orser's 3A was excellent. As was Boitano's, Petrenko's, Browning's....pretty much EVERYONE from 1988 had a better Triple Axel than the so-called 2010 Olympic Champion.
 
K

KKonas

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Blades of Passion said:
No, you're delusional. Orser's 3A was excellent. As was Boitano's, Petrenko's, Browning's....pretty much EVERYONE from 1988 had a better Triple Axel than the so-called 2010 Olympic Champion.
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No matter your opinion of who should or should not have won Olympic gold in Vancouver, you cannot change the FACT that Evan Lysacek IS the 2010 Olympic champion - not the "so-called" Olympic champion.
 
Blades of Passion

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
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Actually yes I can, considering titles only mean what you put into them. Is it a fact that the judges at the event, along with the scoring system of the time, decided Lysacek was the Champion? Yes. Those opinions are not worth any more to me than other opinions, however. They are in fact worth less, given all the faults of the scoring system and clear bias / lack of perspective that has been shown time and again by the people picked to give their opinions at these events. It's not the same as swimming or speed skating or a triathlon or various other sports where the outcome is determined solely by one value that can not be disputed.
 
janetfan

janetfan

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Blades of Passion said:
Actually yes I can, considering titles only mean what you put into them. Is it a fact that the judges at the event, along with the scoring system of the time, decided Lysacek was the Champion? Yes. Those opinions are not worth any more to me than other opinions, however. They are in fact worth less, given all the faults of the scoring system and clear bias / lack of perspective that has been shown time and again by the people picked to give their opinions at these events. It's not the same as swimming or speed skating or a triathlon or various other sports where the outcome is determined solely by one value that can not be disputed.
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Fair enough answer since you have shown many times you are not willing to compromise certain principles.

From what I can see if we just give Speedy a few more years figure skating and the CoP will become more and more like speed skating, and other sports that do not depend on intangible qualities like music interpretation, choreography and even the Janet Lynn "performance art" factor which is the thing that made skating so popular in the first place.

The CoP does not know how to measure and weigh great performances.
Mishin, of all people said it was an arrogant mistake made when the Cop was formulated.

He said "things that come from the heart can't be measured by numbers." :yes: :clap:

And that helps explain how Johnny got screwed over in Vancouver, and why Evan - and not Dai is our Olympic Champion.
 
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FlattFan

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what he said also applies to 6.0.
Case in point: Midori Ito in 1988. That program got a huge standing O, the only one. What a weak argument against CoP.

Johnny did not get screwed. The rules are published. He just didn't bother to read/follow the rule.

Someone mentioned swimming is fair and records are undisputed. Well, for some 20 years, some world records were not broken. Until 2000, when Speedo and Co. designed a more efficient swim suit, records were set again and again, in the span of a few months. In the case of Johnny Weir, it's like he's going up against Ian the Torpedo, and refuses to wear a specially designed swim suit, and complains afterward his strokes are so perfect, and he was perfectly in line, but lost by a huge margin. Ian is bumping around, with ugly strokes, under rotates his strokes, but still does better. What in the world. Where's the justice in that? Johnny Weir only has himself to blame.
 
seniorita

seniorita

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Off topic but do you know these swimsuits are forbidden from 2010 and on because they broke back to back WRs and the companies who designed them are investigated if they filled the rules? Now they cant wear the whole body suits anymore. ANd there is proposal that the WRs broken in these suits will be with an * next to the number..
 
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FlattFan

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Well, I read a while back they will not use them for the 2012 Olympics. The WRs will still be there, unfortunately. The companies didn't break any rules. The rules were too loosely written.
So, I don't feel bad for Johnny, he placed exactly where he should be. Had he created a CoP program, who knows if he can skate a clean CoP program?

I feel bad for Dai, because he's my favorite and because he's more than capable to beat both. But his LP was quite sloppy and with a fall. He wouldn't win under any system. (Case in point, Michelle 02:Dai 10::Sarah 02 : Evan 10, superior presentation, secure jumps, except the fall, vs. horrible techniques, but clean)
 
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janetfan

janetfan

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FlattFan said:
Well, I read a while back they will not use them for the 2012 Olympics. The WRs will still be there, unfortunately. The companies didn't break any rules. The rules were too loosely written.
So, I don't feel bad for Johnny, he placed exactly where he should be. Had he created a CoP program, who knows if he can skate a clean CoP program?

I feel bad for Dai, because he's my favorite and because he's more than capable to beat both. But his LP was quite sloppy and with a fall. He wouldn't win under any system. (Case in point, Michelle 02:Dai 10::Sarah 02 : Evan 10, superior presentation, secure jumps, except the fall, vs. horrible techniques, but clean)
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Flattfan, between your comments that compared Mao's 3A to Orser's and this latest barage of nonsense I am just about left speechless. :unsure:



ETA:
Midori was a great skater but she was eliminated in 1988 after she bombed the school figures.
She did it again in 1990 at the WC and lost to a lacklustre Jill Trenary due to her poor figures.

Skaters who finished 10th or worse in the figures did not win championships.
 
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FlattFan

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janetfan said:
Flattfan, between your comments that compared Mao's 3A to Orser's and this latest barage of nonsense I am just about left speechless. :unsure:
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What nonsense about it? Please specify one. If you have trouble understanding anything, feel free to ask for clarification.
 
F

FlattFan

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Blades said "Actually yes I can, considering titles only mean what you put into them. Is it a fact that the judges at the event, along with the scoring system of the time, decided Lysacek was the Champion? Yes. Those opinions are not worth any more to me than other opinions, however. They are in fact worth less, given all the faults of the scoring system and clear bias / lack of perspective that has been shown time and again by the people picked to give their opinions at these events."

You said "fair enough"

You also said "Mishin said things can't be measured by numbers"

Well, using both of your logics, everyone who said Witt won in 1988 must be very opinionated? I don't see anyone saying Witt was the "so called" 1988 OGMist. I don't have to accept school figures, just like Johnny didn't accept he's competing under the CoP system.

So does it make more sense now?
 
Mathman

Mathman

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I think Flattfan is right about this one. The post in question (#87) is not about Midori Ito, it is a comparison between Takahashi/Lysacek under CoP judging in 2010, and Michelle/Sarah under 6.0 judging in 2002.

In both cases the first-named skater gave the better overall performance, but lost the gold medal because of a fall. So in this regard, CoP and 6.0 worked out about the same.
 
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janetfan

janetfan

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FlattFan said:
Blades said "Actually yes I can, considering titles only mean what you put into them. Is it a fact that the judges at the event, along with the scoring system of the time, decided Lysacek was the Champion? Yes. Those opinions are not worth any more to me than other opinions, however. They are in fact worth less, given all the faults of the scoring system and clear bias / lack of perspective that has been shown time and again by the people picked to give their opinions at these events."

You said "fair enough"

You also said "Mishin said things can't be measured by numbers"

Well, using both of your logics, everyone who said Witt won in 1988 must be very opinionated? I don't see anyone saying Witt was the "so called" 1988 OGMist. I don't have to accept school figures, just like Johnny didn't accept he's competing under the CoP system.

So does it make more sense now?
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No, it makes less sense it that is possible.
Blades can come off as hyper critical at times but there is some consistency to what he says. I don't get that from you too often.

Here, watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2H6PfFr59M

It is perhaps the greatest free skate I ever saw that did not win the event.

Try and remember the sport is called "figure skating." It began as a competiton about who could trace the best figures on the ice. Over the years it evolved but Janet did not win in '72 and Midori (who if I recall did not show a 3A in Calgary) was not very good in 1988 or 1990 at the figures.

We can't change that just like we can't change Evan winning in Vancouver without a quad or showing the soul Dai skated with.

Rules are rules.
What we can do, thanks to YouTube is watch this amazing free skate from Midori that brought down the house but was only good enough for the Silver medal.

Skating is skating - and who ever said "life is fair." :)
 
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FlattFan

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Another thing is, Dai got the highest PCS.


In 2002, for presentation
Sarah got 1 5.6, 2 5.7s, and 6 5.8s
Michelle got 1 5.7, 6 5.8s, and 2 5.9s

Both events, the judges clearly favored the bronze medalist over the winner, but a fall is a fall. Dai, Michelle, or anyone would never win under any system. So stop blaming CoP for Dai's lost.
 
seniorita

seniorita

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but in CoP you cant just place someone first or second or third, you need to either reduce the marks of the others or raise his in other elements despite the fall. Either Lysacek and Plush should have had lower marks by 10 points or Dai should have had 10 more points gained from somewhere else to beat Lysacek. I m not sure judges in CoP have time to calculate which place the skater will take after their marks, have they? Certainly I m not debating you put Dai first:), it would have been a brighter world if he had won (my skating world that is:cool:)
 
janetfan

janetfan

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FlattFan said:
Another thing is, Dai got the highest PCS.


In 2002, for presentation
Sarah got 1 5.6, 2 5.7s, and 6 5.8s
Michelle got 1 5.7, 6 5.8s, and 2 5.9s

Both events, the judges clearly favored the bronze medalist over the winner, but a fall is a fall. Dai, Michelle, or anyone would never win under any system. So stop blaming CoP for Dai's lost.
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I can blame whoever I want. I can also agree with whoever I want. I disagree with you and mm on this. I agree with Mishin and see a major flaw in the way CoP judges and scores "artistry."

Sorry, but the "artistic" part of skating will alway be difficult to judge. The best any human mind can hope for is to compare and then make a subjective choice as to which skater they liked better.

I liked Dai better in Vancouver than either Evan or Plushy. I thought their tech was fairly even and if I was judging it would have been the presentation aspects of their skating that would have been the determining factor in the way I placed them.

I can't get how Michelle and Sarah back in 2002 skating to 6.0 has anything at all to do with what happened in 2010. I would be kind to call it "apples and oranges" but even that feels "weird."

I just look at this much differently. For me every competition is it's own event. I have watched many of them and sometimes I agree and other times I don't. But I never compare events especially if they are separated by a decade - let alone a different scoring system.

I happen to agree with Sarah as the winner in 2002 because Michelle and Irina just didn't earn it by the way they skated their LP's.

If Michelle had not slipped on her flip I still would have given it to Sarah. The most lacklustre skate of Michelle's senior career did not deserve the OGM in my opinion.

Dai did miss his quad but his skating spoke volumes to my heart. I thought he was the best skater and deserved to be Olympic champion.
 
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stevlin

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Blades of Passion said:
It doesn't matter if you have an injury - IT'S A SPORT. If you can't do a move then, too bad, you can't do it and you're at a disadvantage.



You don't know much about technique (or are being willfully blind) if you criticize Plushenko's mistakes but don't criticize Evan's. His jumps are small and his Triple Axels have poor technique (the second one was barely rotated). The talk about "frontloading" is pointless as well. That layout of Lysacek's jumps was MORE clumped than Plushenko's. Lysacek did 3 jumping passes back-to-back-to-back at the start of his program and than did 5 jumping passes back-to-back-to-back starting exactly at the half-way point of his program. Plushenko did 4 jumps, then took time to do other moves and choreography before doing another jump, and then he spent a large portion of his program actually performing before doing another series of 3 jumps.

Nobody can defend what Lysacek did as a well balanced program. Moreover, he didn't "skate a terrific program" at all. Please, tell me exactly how? How did his movements interpret the music? How was his skating exciting? How was his edge quality anything worth writing about? What moves did he do that were special in any way whatsoever?
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Evan won the gold medal. Plushenko did not. The judges liked Evan's skating better. Now we can't argue with the judges, can we? They are the experts. I'm no expert but I did like what I saw in Evan's skating.
 
O

Olympia

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Mathman said:
I think Flattfan is right about this one. The post in question (#87) is not about Midori Ito, it is a comparison between Takahashi/Lysacek under CoP judging in 2010, and Michelle/Sarah under 6.0 judging in 2002.

In both cases the first-named skater gave the better overall performance, but lost the gold medal because of a fall. So in this regard, CoP and 6.0 worked out about the same.
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I also agree on this one. Flattfan pointed out that there is no way either Michelle in '02 or Takahashi in '10 could have won given the performance they had that night. Michelle and Takahashi are still the skaters I'd go out of my way to watch, of course. But even I can't insist that they should have won their respective Olympics. C'est la vie.
 
janetfan

janetfan

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Mathman said:
I think Flattfan is right about this one. The post in question (#87) is not about Midori Ito, it is a comparison between Takahashi/Lysacek under CoP judging in 2010, and Michelle/Sarah under 6.0 judging in 2002.

In both cases the first-named skater gave the better overall performance, but lost the gold medal because of a fall. So in this regard, CoP and 6.0 worked out about the same.
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Flattfan could be said to be making sense if we assume Michelle actually gave a great performance in SLC.

Sorry, but even you know that is a crock.......it was closer to the worst LP of her senior career and she did not deserve the OGM in 2002 with the fall or not.

It has nothing to do with Dai because he skated brilliantly in Vancouver. Maybe it is not worth discussing this if you think Michelle's LP in SLC was as good as Dai's LP in Vancouver.

They were not close to being in the same league for me and the scoring system has nothing to do with it. :sheesh: :disapp:




.
 
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