Michelle Kwan's 1998 Olympic Long Program

Continuing to move after your music has ended is a pet peeve of mine. In her Olympic performance she was behind the music during the last part. Instead of holding her pose when the music ended, she tried to continue the choreography and throw her arms into the air in a display of joy. It wasn't spontaneous and it wasn't properly timed, so it made the program feel a little less genuine.

it just goes to show how much they skating didn't want michelle to win,
it also goes to show how much they hated michelle. how look at how they are skating now, and are terrible and still win, but guess what white, japaneses they win. chineses they don't look at kanako last year winning juniro worlds she was 16 now all of sudden she is 15.
like rogge stated can only take so much rigging, irresonsible behavior out of the sport_not his exact words but regarding the salt lake scandal . they only took out so much, they didn't take it all out . so in other words--rigging , elitism, racism is still in figure skating they don't want to take it out.
she should have won period. they overlook irinas and tara's mistakes why-told too hinted to but michelle was on top since she was on top have to judge her harsher.
i am still waiting for them to judge robin wagner pupils harsher how-she supposed go olympic champ she should know how to do it but dont' grade her easier,
waiting for them to judge mirai, alissa, rachel harsher why national champs should know what to do. but yet guess what judge them easier and who do they nail
zhang why chinese.
blades on ice critical comments of michell kwan through the years mention only her mistakes nothing about her doing right, sasha, tara sara,irnia, no mention of their mistakes only gee whiz look at what they get for their mistakes not how bad they skated.
jyup double standard--one for chinese american singles skaters and another for everyone else. why told too, hinted at, jealously aboundss in figure skating lets ripp them when we can.
tells me no matter how michelle skate they wouldn't have let her win found an excuse for her not too.
it just goes to show how muc

fairly4 said:

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Yes, you're absolutely right. The rest of us were obviously just too stupid to be able to see the truth.

emma said:

thanks for posting this link. It is so weird to watch this again after so many years. Out of context ... it is simply impossible to believe that wasn't a gold medal performance.

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I completely agree with this. I didn't see the 1998 Winter Olympics live; I watched Michelle's Lyra on YouTube only within the last year or so. First her Olympics performance (which blew me away), and only afterwards, the Nationals. I agree that her Nationals was much better, but that's only by being able to compare her to herself. Michelle fans seem to be the most in-tune or perceptive to the subtleties of her performances. I think what seem like small or barely noticeable differences in her performance quality to general figure skating fans are magnified to Michelle-fans, who may be looking for exactly a certain level of magic; almost like they're accustomed to ("spoiled") and/or expect it from their lady.

For me, there really is nothing to criticize about her 1998 Oly performances. It's only in comparison to Tara who (I feel) slightly surpassed her one night whereupon I can say Michelle's Silver was "right". Having said that, Michelle's 1998 SP+LP certainly make up one of the best ever performances in Ladies' Olympic FS history, IMO deserving of Gold in its own--a two-Gold ladies' podium.

fairly4 said:

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precisely why shen/zhao did not win three worlds and an olympic title. yup. 'cause they're chinese.

I'm with you, Prettykeys: a two-gold ladies' podium would have been nice. However, I think that, though we didn't get a two-gold podium, we did get a two-gold competition, considering the quality of both Kwan's and Lipinski's long programs.

Though I did see Michelle's "Lyra" at the Olympics, I already knew the outcome because of the time differential, and so I was too anxious to watch it carefully. So, like you, I've only gotten to know it well in the last year or so, on YouTube. It's become one of my favorite programs, and I think it's a gift to skating. One reason I wish it had won is that this Kwan/Nichol program is a direction I love for skating: choreographically complex and musically rich as well as technically advanced. But things worked out well, both for skating and for Michelle. No other American skater except Carol Heiss has as many World Championships. No other American ladies' skater except Maribel Vinson Owen has as many National Championships--a staggering nine. That in itself argues that skating valued Michelle's contributions.

In my heart of hearts, though I'm thrilled that she's gone on to exciting other things, I do wish she'd stayed in skating and figured out some sort of career with innovative television specials, so that she could explore choreography some more, kind of the way Kurt Browning did in the "You Must Remember This" Canadian special with Sandra Bezic's choreography. But, there--to mangle another quote from Casablanca, we'll always have YouTube.

Hasn't fairly4 accumulated enough infractions to be banned by now?

Or we are just keeping them around for the jester factor?

Olympia said:

It's become one of my favorite programs, and I think it's a gift to skating. One reason I wish it had won is that this Kwan/Nichol program is a direction I love for skating: choreographically complex and musically rich as well as technically advanced.

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Yes, I agree. The program itself is wonderful, and only Michelle could have pulled it off just like that.

Somewhat unrelated, but I get anxious when two things I love and were previously "unmatched" get put together, because I fear that one will ruin the other in some way. I'm sorry that I didn't think Michelle's skating to On My Own reflected the song just right, but her skating itself was top-notch.

Today while I was flipping through old beloved songs of mine on YouTube, I chanced upon Kurt Browning skating to Live's Lightning Crashes. And I got apprehensive...oh no. That's one of my fav songs! As it turns out...it was incredible. I couldn't have imagined that song being skated to, but he did it, magnificently.

It was a close decision that could have gone either way and it happened to go Tara's. If you think they should give Michelle a gold medal for the 98 Olympics then they also should give Chen a gold for the 96 Worlds where many felt she should have beaten Michelle, or Slutskaya a gold for the 2002 Olympics where many felt she should have beaten Hughes (overall), or Kerrigan a gold for the 94 Olympics where many felt she should have won. It certainly wasnt a scandulous result or one you can say Michelle was outright robbed, in fact Kerrigan in 94 was far more a case of that then Kwan in 98.

I do think she was unlucky she came up against someone else who skated so spectacularly on a night she herself skated so extremely well. These are the medals I think Kwan would have won at each Olympics with her 1998 performances:

1992- Silver
1994- Gold
2002- Gold
2006- Silver
2010- Bronze or 4th

pangtongfan said:

These are the medals I think Kwan would have won at each Olympics with her 1998 performances:

1992- Silver
1994- Gold
2002- Gold
2006- Silver
2010- Bronze or 4th

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She would have easily won Gold in 1992.

CoP is difficult to translate to, but assuming the program was formatted to the CoP rules of 2006 or 2010 (*VOMIT*, *VOMIT*, *VOMIT*), she likely would have won Gold in 2006 and Silver in 2010.

Blades of Passion said:

She would have easily won Gold in 1992.

CoP is difficult to translate to, but assuming the program was formatted to the CoP rules of 2006 or 2010 (*VOMIT*, *VOMIT*, *VOMIT*), she likely would have won Gold in 2006 and Silver in 2010.

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I wouldnt be so sure at all she easily wins in 1992. Kristi Yamaguchi landed an extremely difficult triple lutz-triple toe, one of the hardest triple-triples, while as I am sure you recall Michelle had no triple-triple of any kind in her excellent 98 performance (the reason it was even possible for Tara to beat her). She made a couple mistakes, a hand down on the triple loop and doubling the triple salchow. However she still landed all her main triples, the triple lutz-triple toe, a second triple lutz near the very end like Michelle, a triple flip out of very difficult footwork, a triple toe out of a split jump, a double axel out of a split jump, and an additional double axel. If Tara was able to beat Michelle by viture of her triple loop-triple loop combination, what makes you so certain Kristi with way better artistry than Tara, better spins than Tara (and probably Michelle), a triple-triple combination virtually as hard as Tara's, and more difficult entrances into many of her jumps than either Michelle or Tara, couldnt have beaten Michelle with her triple lutz-triple toe as well even with a couple minor mistakes. Also Kristi's scores in 92 were basically exactly the same as the first skater of the final flight as Michelle's in 98, except Kristi was skating in a much stronger field than the 98 field.

My gut tells me Kristi of 92 wins over Michelle in 98 on a split decision.

As for 2006 and 2010 results Michelle is more of a 6.0 skater than a COP skater. Sasha, Irina, and Shizuka are just more COP suited skaters than Michelle is. In 2010 Mao landed 3 triple axels over the 2 programs, I think it would be pretty much impossible for any women not even trying a triple-triple to beat her.

pangtongfan said:

If Tara was able to beat Michelle by viture of her triple loop-triple loop combination, what makes you so certain Kristi with way better artistry than Tara, better spins than Tara (and probably Michelle), a triple-triple combination virtually as hard as Tara's, and more difficult entrances into many of her jumps than either Michelle or Tara, couldnt have beaten Michelle with her triple lutz-triple toe as well even with a couple minor mistakes. Also Kristi's scores in 92 were basically exactly the same as the first skater of the final flight as Michelle's in 98, except Kristi was skating in a much stronger field than the 98 field.

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#1 - Kristi did not have better presentation than Tara.

#2 - Tara did TWO 3-3 combinations and they were both late in the program (one of them being at the very, very end).

#3 - Kristi did not make minor mistakes, she made major mistakes. She nearly fell on the Loop. That right there would have ensured she lost the Gold to Michelle. The second mistake of doubling the Salchow wasn't AS costly since it was an easier jump, but that too would have ensured she lost to Michelle on its own because then she would have only had 6 Triples vs. 7 for Michelle. And NO judge would be marking Kristi higher on artistry.

#4 - Kristi's marks in 1992 were nearly as high as Michelle's in 1998 because the standard was lower in 1992.

pangtongfan said:

As for 2006 and 2010 results Michelle is more of a 6.0 skater than a COP skater. Sasha, Irina, and Shizuka are just more COP suited skaters than Michelle is. In 2010 Mao landed 3 triple axels over the 2 programs, I think it would be pretty much impossible for any women not even trying a triple-triple to beat her.

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Silly arguments. There's no way of knowing how Michelle would have adapted if she had been healthy and competing in 2006 and 2010. Given how well Michelle skated in 1998, though, you have to assume she would skate that well in 2006 and 2010 under the new rules. In 2006 Shizuka doubled her 3Loop, whereas Michelle did not in 1998. In 2010 Mao was hardly invincible for the Silver - she missed two jumps and Yu-Na beat her by over 20 points. Someone as artistic and renowned as Michelle definitely could have placed above Mao in 2010 without any Triple-Triples (or Triple Axel).

If they had skated just as they did in their respective Olympics, Michelle of 1998 would definitely have beat Kristi of 1992 (the hand down on the loop was a HUGE, not minor, mistake). But if they had both skated clean and landed everything, it would've been nail-bitingly close, though I would personally give it to Kristi because of her 3 lutz-3 toe combo.

And while I do think Tara deserved her gold in 1998, I really, really have to disagree when someone says that her artistry compares to Kristi's artistry in '92. No, just no. Tara's presentation had certainly improved by then, but she was not in Kristi's (or Michelle's) league artistically.

still one of the best performances ever! i never get tired watching this program

Blades of Passion said:

#1 - Kristi did not have better presentation than Tara.

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WRONG. Kristi was always considered far stronger in artistry and presentation than Tara. Tara's presentation is the exact reason Tara needed Kwan to make major mistakes to score almost all her big wins, and that people were shocked at the Olympics when Kwan skated cleanly and actually lost to Tara.

#2 - Tara did TWO 3-3 combinations and they were both late in the program (one of them being at the very, very end).

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A triple-triple sequence is not a triple-triple combination. A triple toe into triple salchow sequence is much easier than even a triple toe-triple toe combination. It is what people who cant do triple-triple combinations like Maria usually go to. For Tara it was something a little extra but hardly a big deal.

#3 - Kristi did not make minor mistakes, she made major mistakes. She nearly fell on the Loop. That right there would have ensured she lost the Gold to Michelle. The second mistake of doubling the Salchow wasn't AS costly since it was an easier jump, but that too would have ensured she lost to Michelle on its own because then she would have only had 6 Triples vs. 7 for Michelle. And NO judge would be marking Kristi higher on artistry.

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Another fail. Kristi beat Michelle in artistic scores when they met at the Ultimate Four in 97 when Kwan was already in her prime and had some of her best programs (people might say they were even better than 98 had she actually skated them cleanly more), an even which Michelle won only after Kristi imploded on her jumps in the 2nd round after leading. Kristi was given a perfect 6.0 and almost all 5.9s for presentation in the short program by ISU judges who were probably biased to the amateurs before Michelle even skated. If Tara managed to tie Kwan in presentation by half the judges in the long program, it is silly to just say with certainty Kwan would easily get higher 2nd marks than Kristi.

#4 - Kristi's marks in 1992 were nearly as high as Michelle's in 1998 because the standard was lower in 1992.

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The eventual standard is in hindsight. When Kristi skated left to skate were Ito, Kerrigan, Harding at her peak, and Bonaly. In 98 left to skate were Tara, a fat slumping Irina, past her prime Chen, and Butyrskaya. The potential standard in 98 which could not be known when the first skater of the final flight finished was alot higher in 92. Ito at her best is way better than Tara. Harding at her best was devastating. Kerrigan in her prime was even a much superior skater to what Slutskaya, Chen, and Butyrskaya all were in 98 (not very good, with only Maria one of the weakest World Champs ever in her prime of those three). Kristi still managed exactly the same marks as the 1st skater of the final flight with potentially much stronger skating to come in 92 than 98.

Silly arguments. There's no way of knowing how Michelle would have adapted if she had been healthy and competing in 2006 and 2010. Given how well Michelle skated in 1998, though, you have to assume she would skate that well in 2006 and 2010 under the new rules. In 2006 Shizuka doubled her 3Loop, whereas Michelle did not in 1998. In 2010 Mao was hardly invincible for the Silver - she missed two jumps and Yu-Na beat her by over 20 points. Someone as artistic and renowned as Michelle definitely could have placed above Mao in 2010 without any Triple-Triples (or Triple Axel).

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Yu Na would have destroyed any women in Olympic history with her Vancouver skates so the over 20 point margin over 2 programs means nothing. She was also overmarked a bit which exagerrated it more. Mao with 3 triple axels over the 2 programs would have still probably won any other Olympics in history, especialy under COP. Especialy considering Mao is considered a very good all around skater outside of the jumps too, even if people werent crazy of her 2010 programs.

What you are saying on Michelle is purely speculation. People didnt say she was past her prime in 2004 when she did one of her greatest performances ever at Nationals and was favored to win Worlds. She mysteriously became past her prime once COP was interested. Kwan is an excellent skater but her strengths as a skater were more rewarded under 6.0. Note I am not neccessarily one who prefers COP either, in fact I dont, but COP is what we have had since 2004 like it or not.

pangtongfan said:

a fat slumping Irina

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:disapp::scowl:

tommyk75 said:

If they had skated just as they did in their respective Olympics, Michelle of 1998 would definitely have beat Kristi of 1992 (the hand down on the loop was a HUGE, not minor, mistake). But if they had both skated clean and landed everything, it would've been nail-bitingly close, though I would personally give it to Kristi because of her 3 lutz-3 toe combo.

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That's how I see it...

With the actual performances we have, I think Michelle's 1998 Oly SP+LP would have won Gold in 1992, 1994, 2002 and 2006.

Kristi was good artistically, but there is no denying that she made some jarring mistakes in her FS while Michelle was flawless. And, Michelle had 7 triples compared to Kristi's 6.

In 2006, Shizuka was surely capable of more than she put out there (especially on the technical level), but working with what we actually saw, she only put out 5 triples in an even more cautious performance than Michelle's so-called cautious 1998 FS.

pangtongfan said:

...a fat slumping Irina...

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museksk8r said:

:disapp::scowl:

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I am surprised, too! I could have sworn that Pangtongfan was a slutskayafan.

I am an Irina fan but the Irina of 98-99 was an out of shape and slumping Irina doing the worst skating of her career. That isnt even really an opinion, it is a fact. She didnt win a grand prix event either season, was FOURTH at her own Nationals both years, was very overweight, was inconsistent in jumps, and was overall ragged and skating to immature styless programs. Her only high point those 2 years was the 98 Worlds where she barely won silver in a really weak and watered down field (also poorly skated) inspite of a fall in both programs. Even the Irina of 96-97 was far superior to the Irina of 98-99.

prettykeys said:

That's how I see it...

With the actual performances we have, I think Michelle's 1998 Oly SP+LP would have won Gold in 1992, 1994, 2002 and 2006.

Kristi was good artistically, but there is no denying that she made some jarring mistakes in her FS while Michelle was flawless. And, Michelle had 7 triples compared to Kristi's 6.

In 2006, Shizuka was surely capable of more than she put out there (especially on the technical level), but working with what we actually saw, she only put out 5 triples in an even more cautious performance than Michelle's so-called cautious 1998 FS.

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6 triples and 7 triples is not the same thing when women who did 6 triples landed a triple lutz-triple toe, one of the hardest triple-triples out there. Lets say Nancy Kerrigan had landed 7 triples (with a triple toe-triple toe as well) would she have beaten Kristi with her performance in 1992? I am not saying Nancy is Michelle of course, but you get the point.

And under COP Michelle would have only had 6 triples counted with her 98 performance since only 7 jump passes are allowed and 1 of them has to be a double axel. And we know Kwan in 98 wasnt doing any triple-triples at that point with her injury so that is out the window. Unless she made some significant alterations, which is possible but only a guess as we never saw Kwan at her best in COP but the general feeling is she wasnt as COP-suited, she would not beat Shizuka's more COP friendly programs over a 2 program total with just a 1 triple advantage.