Virtual Program and Preview Free Dance, Sunday, Oct 31, 12:15 EST | Page 8 | Golden Skate

Virtual Program and Preview Free Dance, Sunday, Oct 31, 12:15 EST

NorthernDancers

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 15, 2010
My predictions: If V/M are at Nationals and Worlds, I think the 3 teams are going to be V/M, C/P, W/P, likely in that order, but it will be another horse race for second as both have their strengths and weaknesses, and both are hungry. If V/M take the season to get fully healthy, which I think is a great idea for them and Tessa especially, the 3 teams will likely be C/P, W/P fighting for gold and silver, and P/I in 3rd. I do not think that R/H will be anywhere near this level. We have 4 really strong teams. The 5th place spot will be a horse race between R/H, A/T, and H/G, and I'm not sure that R/H will have the strength to stay in the top 5 with A/T and H/G improving so much. A/T didn't get great marks here, but really they were severely under-marked, especially on the PCS scores in the FD, but also in the SD. They got absolutely killed on the levels in the SD, which is very unusual for them, and then the PCS scores. On the FD, they got most of their levels with decent GOE, but killed on the PCS, which I don't think was deserved. We'll have to see how R/H do in China this week, but I'm a little afraid for them.
 

KKonas

Medalist
Joined
Oct 31, 2009
Despite some unfortunate withdrawals from injury, this season is turning out to be quite interesting. Crone & Poirer and Weaver & Poje both compete at Skate America and meet Davis & White and the Shibutanis along with Cappelllini & Lanotte and Riazaova & Trachenko. Expect Crone & Poirer to give Davis & White a headache if D&W haven't got their GW levels up and improved their FD. C&P look pretty polished this early in the season.
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
Expect Crone & Poirer to give Davis & White a headache if D&W haven't got their GW levels up and improved their FD. C&P look pretty polished this early in the season.

Yet D/W at NHK way outscored C/P in both SD and FD, and D/W didn't have a home ice advantage---which they will have at SA.

Fact is D/W had to scrap their original SD and start over, so their FD was somewhat underprepared at NHK.
 

callalily

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 11, 2005
So glad that C/P are working with Christopher Dean. The FD is a remarkable program -conceptually interesting, full of transitions and very demanding. Now let's see how they build the performance throughout the year.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
My predictions: If V/M are at Nationals and Worlds, I think the 3 teams are going to be V/M, C/P, W/P, likely in that order, but it will be another horse race for second as both have their strengths and weaknesses, and both are hungry. If V/M take the season to get fully healthy, which I think is a great idea for them and Tessa especially, the 3 teams will likely be C/P, W/P fighting for gold and silver, and P/I in 3rd. I do not think that R/H will be anywhere near this level. We have 4 really strong teams. The 5th place spot will be a horse race between R/H, A/T, and H/G, and I'm not sure that R/H will have the strength to stay in the top 5 with A/T and H/G improving so much. A/T didn't get great marks here, but really they were severely under-marked, especially on the PCS scores in the FD, but also in the SD. They got absolutely killed on the levels in the SD, which is very unusual for them, and then the PCS scores. On the FD, they got most of their levels with decent GOE, but killed on the PCS, which I don't think was deserved. We'll have to see how R/H do in China this week, but I'm a little afraid for them.

Arnold / Trojek, whom I assume you mean by A&T are not at the level of C&P or P&I or W&P yet, so I don't think we'll be seeing them at Worlds. Possibly at 4CC's though, if one of the other 3 opts not to go to 4CC's. Ralph and Hill are seriously on the bubble IMO, but I haven't seen them at all this summer, and have no idea how they will fit in. Again, with V&M out and a 3rd slot at World's, I expect they will have worked extra hard and will be well prepared.

BTW, I don't agree that A&T were undermarked. That tree and wind concept required program notes, something that this year's rules is decidedly against, if that item passed at this summer's ISU meeting. If story lines are used, they are supposed to be obvious. Their marks were ahead of B&T and F&G, which was entirely correct, and well behind C&P, P&I, K&K, and C&Z also entirely correct. Are you suggesting they should have been ahead of C&J and or G&B in the FD? I certainly would not have put them there. If you check out the protocol, you will find that their final lift was graded a Level1, which account for an immediate loss of 2.5 points, versus other teams who did level4. They also chose the 4 little lift option rather than the one long lift and 2 little lifts option. This is apt not to impress, IMO, but since it's new it will be interesting to see how that choice works out for other teams that do it. Also they got level 2 on both steps when C&J and G&B got Level 2 and 3 and both Level 3's respectively. In general, deeper edges are called for.

As a result G&B had a base score of 39.50 while C&J had a base of 37.00, and A&T had a base of 34.50. Like the Kerrs, A&T finished low because of their technical score of 36.08 as much as anything, and that was due to low base value. G&B has a TES score of 41.85-so there was the difference.

In the SD, A&T only had Level1 & Level2 on the Golden Waltz. Frankly, they were lucky to be ahead of T&B in that segment. They were completely not on the level even of F&G who got Level 4 and Level 1 in the GW, Let alone the higher ranked couples who had all level3's and level4. In the SD, the GW levels make a huge difference. Level 4 on the first and Level 3 on the second nets you 13 base points. Level 1 on the first and level2 on the second nets only 8.5 base points. So no, they weren't particularly underscored here. Their tech was not as sharp as it was at Nebelhorn, would be my assumption; not a big surprise for a team at their GP debut.
 

NorthernDancers

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 15, 2010
I really see the top 7 teams in Canada in 3 distinct quality categories:
- V/M who are in a class by themselves - 1st place
- W/P and C/P in any order with I/P below them, but not by miles and miles - 2nd, 3rd, 4th
- A/T, R/H and H/G in any order - 5th, 6th, 7th

It's really quite exciting to have such great depth in ice dance in Canada!

I see your point about needing program notes, but I do think A/T looked quite good in the FD. The SD is still hard for me to judge - especially the levels of the GW or the VW at Junior and being able to see the steps that constitute levels. I just know that A/T were scored very differently in Nebelhorn with some big teams there. Maybe nerves at a GP debut, and maybe coupled with a harsher standard since they would have been expected to be in the bottom 3? I think the finish order is right overall, all the way down from 1st through 9th. I just think the points for A/T should have been higher. I liked the floaty FD and thought they had really good connection with each other and presentation. Except for the lift at the end, they received good technical levels for the elements. As stated, I think the order was correct, but was there really 20 points between 6th and 7th? I'm not convinced.
 

trains

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 2, 2004
I thought the competition was great. P/I had the rink mesmerized and there were people with tears. C/P stood out with their look and the program was so good. It got faster and more powerful as it went on.
I'm not a big fan of the Kerrs myself. They never would have been paired up together if they weren't brother & sister. He must have lifts in his skates because when you see them together in shoes she is noticeably taller than him. They probably will do well at worlds though.
 

museksk8r

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 31, 2006
Country
United-States
Expect Crone & Poirer to give Davis & White a headache if D&W haven't got their GW levels up and improved their FD. C&P look pretty polished this early in the season.

I only see Vanessa and Paul upsetting Meryl and Charlie if the latter make a few MAJOR mistakes.
 

colleen o'neill

Medalist
Joined
Nov 3, 2006
:)No, I don't see C/P being a threat to D/W in either dance. D/W's waltz should become more and more infectious as the season goes on with their ability to project..and they are no slouches , technically. even if it was a bit unfinished , I almost wanted to raise a glass and sing along at NHK.

C/P's unusual SD music demands the skaters be able to really draw the audience in. I don't say they couldn't do it , before the season is out..but (once again ) there will need to be a major costume make-over for that to have chance of happening. Her costume at SC really got in the way , for me.

Their FD really does elevate them to the point where they look like they belong in the upper echelons..but I don't see it surpassing D/W. ( Even if Charlie is not naturally a tango guy, I expect their program to be very polished.)
 
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missysays

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 8, 2007
However, the costumes, not so much. I really like the red dress on Vanessa, but they should remove that furry sporran looking mass from the front of it. It just messes up her nice lines. I don't like the blue on Paul at all, but a similar simple costume in black would show off their positions just as well as blue, without the unfortunate effect of causing me to wonder whether a coach all in white was awaiting them in the KnC so they could all impersonate the French flag.

I like the overall concept and the simple lines of the costumes. However, those weird little touches- flowery/furry mass on Vanessa and the grid-like patterning of Paul's costume- did not work for me. In fact, if viewed from the side, the flowery/furry part of Vanessa's costume at first looked like an unfortunately placed anatomical allusion- even though I know it's not intended to be that way!

I do like the starkness of the lines and the vibrancy of the colors though. Vanessa looked much better with her hair and costume for the FD than she did for the SD.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
, It's really quite exciting to have such great depth in ice dance in Canada!

Yes, I am very excited about all of them too, but a little crushed at the disappearance of Harvey/Gagnon.

As stated, I think the order was correct, but was there really 20 points between 6th and 7th? I'm not convinced.

Well, let's see. I've copied all this stuff from the protocols:

Nebelhorn FD

Base 37.00
TES 39.86
PCS 35.75
Overall 74.61

CULI4
STW4
CIST2
ROLI4
COSP4
SlLi4
DiSt3
ROLi2

Skate Canada FD
base 34.50
total 67.57
TES 36.08
PCS 31.49

culi4
stw4
cist2
roli4
cosp4
dist2
roli1


So in the FD, they lost 2.5 points in base value of TES for nearly 4 points overall in TES.
In PCS, 4.25 point loss: this is the part that might be questionable. However, when you are not skating your elements at your best in dance, it is often so that your PCS are not your best either. This is a bit of an empty argument, because it does not appear to apply to Patrick Chan's grades, but IMO it's how it should go, and usually how it does go in dance (one reason it is my favorite discipline these days).

So overall, they have lost about 8.5 points on the FD vs. Nebelhorn.

On the SD:

Here the differences are more stark:
At Nebelhorn SD
Base 26.0
TES 26.93
PCS 22.38
total 49.31

NTmist2
stw3
GW2SE2
GW1SE4
RoLi4

Skate Canada SD
base 21
TES 20.29 (some negative GOE's here)
PCS 19.78
total 40.07

ntmist1
stw3
gw2se2
gw1se1
roli4

Here they lost about 9.3 points. But it's important to note that their GW was significantly worse.
5 of the points lost were in base value alone.

Again, they lost some in PCS too, but they made significantly more technical errors-so this may well be correct.

I didn't see their Nebelhorn programs, but the protocols are fairly consistent with the scores-more problems in both programs at Skate Canada.

It looks like they were not their best at Skate Canada and were at Nebelhorn.
 
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BigJohn

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
The best team won.

And enough of the P/I bashing. Some people will definitely hate anything Canadian in here...
 

colleen o'neill

Medalist
Joined
Nov 3, 2006
:)I didn't like the flower/pom-pom/sporran thing on Vanessa either ,and agree Paul's shirt would have been better solid , but it's such a teeny quibble compared to their usual costume problems, I'd be willing to live with it if they don't change it. ..It would be nice if the whole thing was ideal, though.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
colleen, that's very true.
They are not bad costumes at all, and you're right, they are a big improvement from, say Vanessa's SD costume and hair style. But it's such a good dance that it's a shame to not fix the little things that could make it better, just by avoiding distracting from the dance.

After all, it costs nothing to remove a flower or a belt. :) The rest of the dress is just right for her IMO! A big step.
 
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BigJohn

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
I'm the guy that's been criticizing them the most, and I can assure you I don't fit the latter portion of your statement.

I did not target anyone, but you gotta admit it does happens any time there is a competition in Canada, more so when a young talented dance team gets a good result.
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
I did not target anyone, but you gotta admit it does happens any time there is a competition in Canada, more so when a young talented dance team gets a good result.

Oh, without a doubt, but it happens to virtually all Canadian skaters.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
And it happens to all the other skaters, too. Just the people writing the posts change. As long as the criticism is based in the performance, including the music and costuming, it is allowed.

Would you be shocked to see what posters write here about DomShabs or Davis and White or any other couple that did better than the poster thought they would have graded them? Those comments were far more scathing than anything that has been said here about Canadian dancers.

DomShabs were particularly hauled over the coals for their OD last year. And they would have done well to listen to the posts and changed a few things between Russian Nationals and Olympics. The worst effect was that the performer and composer of the music of a significant part of the program refused to grant broadcast rights because she was offended by their performance. They had to scramble togehter some similar stuff to fit in the blank, which can't have been pleasant.

I.P., I notice that your profile says you're Canadian. Would you explain why you feel yourself to be more critical of Canadian dancers?
 
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